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Ancient mysteries revealed in Turkmen desert


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#61    Abramelin

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:20 AM

 Harsh86_Patel, on 10 April 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Maybe they are right,maybe all the cultures are related and have originated from a common source in some point of time. A global civilization.

I hope this thread is not going to be about Atlantis or Ancient Aliens..... again.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 10 April 2013 - 10:21 AM.


#62    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:23 AM

 Abramelin, on 10 April 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

I hope this thread is not going to be about Atlantis or Ancient Aliens..... again.

.
Why does it have to be Atlantis or Ancient Aliens to explain a global civilization in antiquity?
Though i take the indication, you have a good thread going out here,will not divert the topic.Looking forward to more information.
Meanwhile here is a list of Janapadas(tribes/kingdoms) mentioned in Hindu literature:


Ancient Sanskrit texts like Ashtadhyayi (IV.4.168-175), Ramayana (IV/41-43), Mahabharata (VII/11/16-17; VIII/8/18-20)) and numerous Puranas (Bhuvanakosa list of countries) refer to many Janapadas of ancient times.

Pāṇini's Ashtadhyayi furnishes a list of fifteen Kshatriya monarchical Janapadas, viz., Salveya, Gandhari, Magadha, Kalinga, Surasena, Kosala, Ajada, Kuru, Salva, Pratyagratha, Kalakuta, Ashmaka, Kamboja,Avanti and Kunti. Besides, there were those following the republican constitutions.

In context of Krsna digvijay, the Mahabharata furnishes a key list of twenty-five ancient Janapadas, viz., Anga, Vanga, Kalinga, Magadha, Kasi, Kosala, Vatsa, Garga, Karusha, Pundra, Avanti, Dakshinatya, Parvartaka, Dasherka, Kashmira, Ursa, Pishacha, Mudgala, Kamboja, Vatadhana, Chola, Pandya, Trigarta, Malava, and Darada (MBH 7/11/15-17). Besides, there were the Janapadas of Kurus and Panchalasalso.

Ramayana (an earlier list) includes Janapadas of Andhras, Pundras, Cholas, Pandyas, Keralas, Mekhalas, Utkalas, Dasharnas, Abravantis, Avantis, Vidarbhas, Mlecchas, Pulindas, Surasenas, Prasthalas, Bharatas, Kurus, Madrakas, Kambojas, Daradas, Kiratas, Tangana, Yavanas, Sakas (from Saka-dvipa) Chinas, Maha-Chinas, Niharas etc.

The Bhuvanakosa Section of numerous Puranas divides the ancient Indian subcontinent into (1) the Dakshinapatha (Southern India), (2) the Madhyadesa (Mid India), (3) the Prachya (Eastern India), (4) theAparanta (Western India), (5) the Udichya or north/north-west division, (6) the Vindyavasins, and (7) the Parvatashrayins, and in the detailed list of countries, it refers to many Janapadas of ancient times (See:Kirfel's list of the countries of Bhuvanakosha)

By about the sixth century BCE, many of these Janapadas further evolved into larger political entities by the process of merger and land grabbing which eventually led to the formation of bigger kingdoms known in Buddhist texts as the Mahajanapadas or the great nations (a karmadharaya of maha "great" and janapada "country").


Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janapada


Maybe these people are mentioned here.


Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 10 April 2013 - 10:28 AM.


#63    Abramelin

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:27 AM

 Harsh86_Patel, on 10 April 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

Why does it have to be Atlantis or Ancient Aliens to explain a global civilization in antiquity?

It doesn't, but it eventually always happens.


#64    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:40 AM

 Abramelin, on 10 April 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

It doesn't, but it eventually always happens.
I have not once referred to any ancient aliens or Atlantis.


#65    Abramelin

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:34 AM

 Harsh86_Patel, on 10 April 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

I have not once referred to any ancient aliens or Atlantis.

I didn't say you would come up with it, but as soon as someone says "global civilization", then the ball starts rolling.


#66    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:40 AM

 Abramelin, on 10 April 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

I didn't say you would come up with it, but as soon as someone says "global civilization", then the ball starts rolling.
lol.


#67    The_Spartan

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:25 PM

Posted Image

This detailed map shows the locations of Kingdoms mentioned in the Indian epics.

So, from this map, Turkumenistan would correspond to the Tushara Kingdom.

The wiki on Tusharas also call them as Tukharas, Tócharoi.

The Tocharians and these Tocharoi /Tushara/Tukhara are two different people.

Quote

Tusharas (alias Tukharas, Tócharoi) were a Mleccha tribe, with their kingdom located in the north west of India as per the epic Mahabharata. An account in Mahabharata (Mbh 1:85) depicts Mlechchas as the descendants of Anu, one of the cursed sons of king Yayati. Yayati's eldest son Yadu, gave rise to the Yadavas and youngest son Puru to the Pauravas that includes the Kurus and Panchalas. Only the fifth son of Puru's line was considered to be the successors of Yayati's throne, as he cursed the other four sons and denied them kingship. Pauravas inherited the Yayati's original empire and stayed in the Gangatic plain who later created the Kuru and Panchala Kingdoms. They were the followers of proper Vedic culture. Yadavas made central and western India their stronghold. The descendants of Anu, also called Anavas migrated to Iran, of which the Tusharas settled in Turkmenistan, Turkistan (in Afghanistan) and Turkey. The Tushara country mentioned in the epic could be Turkmenistan, a Central Asian Republic or the Turkistan of Afghanistan.
The Atharavaveda-Parishishta[1] associates the Tusharas (Tócharoi) with the Sakas (Scyths), Yavanas/Yonas (Indo-Greeks) and the Bahlikas (Bactrians) (Saka.Yavana.Tushara.Bahlikashcha). It also juxtaposes the Kambojas with the Bahlikas (Kamboja-Bahlika...).[2]
This shows that the Tusharas were probably neighbours to these peoples, possibly in Transoxiana.
Link

and Transoxiana is also corresponding to the area under reference.

Quote

Transoxiana (also spelled Transoxania) is the ancient name used for the portion of Central Asia corresponding approximately with modern-day Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, southern Kyrgyzstan and southwest Kazakhstan. Geographically, it is the region between the Amu Darya (Greek: Ώξος Ōxos) and Syr Darya rivers.[1] When used in the present, it usually implies that one is talking about that region in the time prior to about the 8th century, although the term continued to remain in use among western historians for several centuries after. In the Persian epic Shahnameh, written by the poet Ferdowsi, Transoxiana is the homeland of the Iranian nomadic tribes and the Oxus river is the border between Iran and Turan.
The region was one of the satrapies of the Achaemenid dynasty of Persia under the name Sogdiana. Transoxiana, however, is Latin, and literally means "across the Oxus River", the Greek name for the Amu Darya, which describes the region perfectly from the viewpoint of the Greeks and Romans. The area was called prdry and Faraa-rood in Middle Persian,[2] the latter means "that which is beyond the river". After invasion of Arabs they called it mā warā' an-nāhr which is a translation of the Mid. Persian name and has the same meaning, and is an alternative name for the country, and is also rendered Mawarannahr.
Link
Posted Image

So good to learn  something new.

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#68    Abramelin

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:04 PM

 The_Spartan, on 10 April 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:


This detailed map shows the locations of Kingdoms mentioned in the Indian epics.

So, from this map, Turkumenistan would correspond to the Tushara Kingdom.

The wiki on Tusharas also call them as Tukharas, Tócharoi.

The Tocharians and these Tocharoi /Tushara/Tukhara are two different people.

Link

and Transoxiana is also corresponding to the area under reference.
Link

So good to learn  something new.

But in your first map I also see "Tushara" far to the east (orange fonts) of the Turkmenian Tushara. And that is where the Tocharians lived.


#69    Abramelin

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:17 PM

This map shows the regions of the world where Tocharian was commonly spoken (red circle). The Tocharian language is something of a mystery. Our only evidence of it includes some fragmentary texts found in the early twentieth-century in Chinese Turkestan (central Asia). This language appears in two forms, which linguists unimaginatively call "Tocharian A" and "Tocharian B," which split from each other about 700 CE. The Tocharians lived in the region until about 950 CE, and their writing makes reference to Chinese rulers. What makes them so mysterious is that they appear to be a people of European descent in an area of non Indo-European races. Their language is clearly most similar to those of the Centum branch of Indo-European, but from their geographic position we would expect the language to be most similar to that of the Satem branch of Indo-European. Somewhere in the Tocharians' lost past, this people must have engaged in a race-wide exodus to the far east. The reasons for this herculean migration are unknown.

Posted Image

http://web.cn.edu/kw..._Tocharian.html



Some scholars have linked the Tocharians with the Afanasevo culture of eastern Siberia (c. 3500–2500 BC), the Tarim mummies (c. 1800 BC) and the Yuezhi of Chinese records, most of whom migrated from southern Gansu to Bactria in the 2nd century BC and then later to northwest India where they founded the Kushan Empire.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Tocharians


#70    The_Spartan

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:18 PM

Quote

The Tocharians or Tokharians (/təˈkɛəriənz/ or /təˈkɑriənz/) were inhabitants of medieval oasis city-states on the northern edge of the Tarim Basin (modern Xinjiang, China). Their Tocharian languages (a branch of the Indo-European family) are known from manuscripts from the 6th to 8th centuries AD, after which they were supplanted by the Turkic languages of the Uyghur tribes.
Some scholars have linked the Tocharians with the Afanasevo culture of eastern Siberia (c. 3500–2500 BC), the Tarim mummies (c. 1800 BC) and the Yuezhi of Chinese records, most of whom migrated from southern Gansu to Bactria in the 2nd century BC and then later to northwest India where they founded the Kushan Empire.
Link


Posted Image

The Tarim Basin is towards the right of Tajikistan and Turkemenistan is far away towards the left of Tajikistan & Uzbekistan.

The Tushara Kingdom and The Tocharians of the Tarim Basin are different entities. I suppose and as far i can gather.

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#71    Abramelin

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:33 PM

Why did the Indians give two different peoples the same name?


Tusharas (alias Tukharas, Tócharoi) were a Mleccha tribe, with their kingdom located in the north west of India as per the epic Mahabharata. An account in Mahabharata (Mbh 1:85) depicts Mlechchas as the descendants of Anu, one of the cursed sons of king Yayati. Yayati's eldest son Yadu, gave rise to the Yadavas and youngest son Puru to the Pauravas that includes the Kurus and Panchalas. Only the fifth son of Puru's line was considered to be the successors of Yayati's throne, as he cursed the other four sons and denied them kingship. Pauravas inherited the Yayati's original empire and stayed in the Gangatic plain who later created the Kuru and Panchala Kingdoms. They were the followers of proper Vedic culture. Yadavas made central and western India their stronghold. The descendants of Anu, also called Anavas migrated to Iran, of which the Tusharas settled in Turkmenistan, Turkistan (in Afghanistan) and Turkey. The Tushara country mentioned in the epic could be Turkmenistan, a Central Asian Republic or the Turkistan of Afghanistan.

The Atharavaveda-Parishishta[1] associates the Tusharas (Tócharoi) with the Sakas (Scyths), Yavanas/Yonas (Indo-Greeks) and the Bahlikas (Bactrians) (Saka.Yavana.Tushara.Bahlikashcha). It also juxtaposes the Kambojas with the Bahlikas (Kamboja-Bahlika...).


This shows that the Tusharas were probably neighbours to these peoples, possibly in Transoxiana.

(,,,)

P. C. Bagchi holds that the Yuezhi, Tocharioi and Tushara were identical. If he is correct, the Rishikas, Tusharas/Tukharas (Tokharoi/Tokaroi), the Kushanas and the Yuezhi, were probably either a single people, or members of a confederacy.

http://en.wikipedia....Tushara_Kingdom

.

Edited by Abramelin, 10 April 2013 - 02:46 PM.


#72    The_Spartan

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:27 PM

the name "Tócharoi" was not given by Indians . It was the greeks.

Now i get the pic.

The name Tushara for the Kingdom was given in the Epics, by Indians.
The name Tocharoi was the name given by the greeks for the people.

My mistake. Sorry.

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#73    Abramelin

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:49 PM

The question is now: were these Tushara (or Greek Tocharoi) the people who(se ancestors) built Gonur Tepe and lived in that area.

If so, then we know their name, and what language they spoke (IE).


#74    Abramelin

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:05 PM

During 4300–3200 BCE of the chalcolithic period (copper age), the Indus Valley Civilization area shows ceramic similarities with southern Turkmenistan and northern Iran which suggest considerable mobility and trade. During the Early Harappan period (about 3200–2600 BCE), similarities in pottery, seals, figurines, ornaments, etc. document intensive caravan trade with Central Asia and the Iranian plateau.

Judging from the dispersal of Indus civilization artifacts, the trade networks, economically, integrated a huge area, including portions of Afghanistan, the coastal regions of Persia, northern and western India, and Mesopotamia.


http://en.wikipedia....ey_Civilization


#75    The_Spartan

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:05 PM

Since the Tocharoi/Tushara lived in the same area - Turkmenistan, there is a reasonable probability that they could have created the Gonur Tepe.

As per Hindu Mythology, The Tushara Kingdom was established by the descendants of Anu, one of the son's of Yayati, the ancestor of the Yadavas (tribe of Sri krishna), the Purus - the royal lineage that included the pandavas and the Kauravas, of the epic Mahabharata.

The concept of Mleccha of Hindu Religion is simply put "Barbarians".

The IVC would have very well be barbarians to the Aryans and could have been termed Mleccha.

So, things do line up.

Edited by The_Spartan, 10 April 2013 - 07:08 PM.

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