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Life In Occupied Palestine


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#76    and then

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:06 AM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 25 April 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

OK.  So Gaza, West Bank, East Jerusalem back to the Palestinians and Golan Hts back to Syria.  When is this going to happen?  The State of Palestine has already being accepted by the world but Israel still holds onto East Jerusalem, Golan Hts and many areas of the West Bank.
Your question was to be answered before you would answer mine.  So, why do those I mentioned refuse, utterly, to even SAY that Israel is the homeland of the Jews?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#77    Black Red Devil

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:10 AM

View Postand then, on 25 April 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

Your question was to be answered before you would answer mine.  So, why do those I mentioned refuse, utterly, to even SAY that Israel is the homeland of the Jews?

You don't get the drift do you?

How can they recognise a Jewish State in its current format?

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#78    and then

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:16 AM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 25 April 2013 - 01:10 AM, said:

You don't get the drift do you?

How can they recognise a Jewish State in its current format?
You are correct, we are NOT communicating.  What I am asking is NOT that these leaders accept a certain territorial space or boundary.  I am literally asking why it is that they are unwilling to call ANY piece of land in Palestine "the homeland of the Jews".

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#79    Black Red Devil

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:27 AM

View Postand then, on 25 April 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

You are correct, we are NOT communicating.  What I am asking is NOT that these leaders accept a certain territorial space or boundary.  I am literally asking why it is that they are unwilling to call ANY piece of land in Palestine "the homeland of the Jews".

Because this current land in Israel includes Islamic Holy sites.  They are asking the Palestinians to acknowledge that the Al-Aqsa Mosque in East Jerusalem belongs to a Jewish State.  That will never happen!!

The Zionists in power know this as well, which is why they're asking the impossible without giving away anything (pre 1967 borders) and by doing so they're stalling the peace process so they can occupy more land with more settlements.
:) Even a kid can see this.

Anyway, got to go.  Be back later.

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- Oscar Wilde

#80    and then

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:37 AM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 25 April 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

Because this current land in Israel includes Islamic Holy sites.  They are asking the Palestinians to acknowledge that the Al-Aqsa Mosque in East Jerusalem belongs to a Jewish State.  That will never happen!!

The Zionists in power know this as well, which is why they're asking the impossible without giving away anything (pre 1967 borders) and by doing so they're stalling the peace process so they can occupy more land with more settlements.
:) Even a kid can see this.

Anyway, got to go.  Be back later.
Well from my vantage point (biased for Israel) I see intransigence that has continued from '48 onward.  When the idea of a Jewish homeland was presented to the Arab states they were vehemently against it, even though it encompassed much less land than they now possess.  They refused, a war was fought and then the Jews had even more land.  My point is simple.  The problem exists primarily because the Arabs/Palestinians still teach their children hatred of Jews and openly declare that some day they will triumph and have ALL the land again.  If a gesture was made where the leaders of the Palestinians just said - okay, once we agree on final borders we will accept the state of Israel as the eternal homeland of the Jewish people, it would take away the greatest obstacle to peace presented by the Jews.  But the Palestinian leaders will NOT say it because they would be killed by their own people if they did.  This is why Arafat started the 2nd Intifada rather than take the deal offered by Barak.  Even smilin' Bill Clinton said so... It is an unsolvable problem and the end is going to be a REAL blowout :(

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#81    SCFan

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:59 PM

Christian Zionism is regarded by many Christians to be heretical teaching. And it is a form of idol worship towards Israel and the Zionists.
Televangelist John Hagee one of leading figures of Christian Zionist in the pocket of Israel and is a noted heretic for his radical teachings on Christ in relation to the Jews. Simply Google "John Hagee and heresy".
God is no longer obligated to give the Jews a homeland, and only then if they follow and obey his Law and commandments. If they don't obey his Law and commandments then they will not have their historical homelands.
And I will prove this scripturely too because he already has fulfilled this promise to the Jews.
Note the past tense in these verses:
So the Lord gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it.
Joshua 21:43
"Blessed be the Lord, who has given rest to His people Israel, according to all that He promised, not one word has failed of all His good promise, which He promised  through Moses His servent.
1 Kings 8:56
“You are the Lord God,
Who chose Abram
And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees,
And gave him the name Abraham.
“You found his heart faithful before You,
And made a covenant with him
To give him the land of the Canaanite,
Of the Hittite and the Amorite,
Of the Perizzite, the jesusite and the Girgashite—
To give it to his descendants.
And You have fulfilled Your promise,
For You are righteous.
Nehemiah 9:7-8
Now note the future tense in this verse:
“Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
Jeremiah 31:31
Now for the present tense of the new conditions of the new Covenant, Christ's New Jerusalem and the Israel of God:
Jesus *said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures,

‘The stone which the builders rejected,
This became the chief corner stone;
This came about from the Lord,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.
Matthew 21:42-43
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
Romans 10:12
For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
Romans 11:24-26
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:13
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
Galatians 3: 13-14, 16, 28-29
[b]This Israel of God represents the fullness of the Gentiles. Do you know what that means? It means the Gentiles are being received into the Israel of God and Christ's New Jerusalem. It means Gentiles and Jews are both equal parts of God's new Israel and Christ's New Jerusalem. It doesn't matter if there is a physical Israel or not anymore. Additionally, like I I have been saying all the time, once God removed the Jews from the holy land, there is only ONE way, ONE method that will guarantee the Jews will ever possess the land ever again. Do you know what that is? (Seriously, I am challenging to answer this last question).
That is why Christ Zionism is a heresy, because it bypasses God and his word and his promises. And places the Zionist above God and his word. Christian Zionism is Idol Worship. It is the heresy of the dual New Covenant. God made only one New Covenant, not two New Covenants as the Christian Zionist movement suggests.


"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#82    and then

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 04:03 PM

I don't believe in replacement theology BJ - have a nice day man.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#83    Black Red Devil

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 04:54 AM

View Postand then, on 25 April 2013 - 01:37 AM, said:

Well from my vantage point (biased for Israel) I see intransigence that has continued from '48 onward.  When the idea of a Jewish homeland was presented to the Arab states they were vehemently against it, even though it encompassed much less land than they now possess.  They refused, a war was fought and then the Jews had even more land.  My point is simple.  The problem exists primarily because the Arabs/Palestinians still teach their children hatred of Jews and openly declare that some day they will triumph and have ALL the land again.  If a gesture was made where the leaders of the Palestinians just said - okay, once we agree on final borders we will accept the state of Israel as the eternal homeland of the Jewish people, it would take away the greatest obstacle to peace presented by the Jews.  But the Palestinian leaders will NOT say it because they would be killed by their own people if they did.  This is why Arafat started the 2nd Intifada rather than take the deal offered by Barak.  Even smilin' Bill Clinton said so... It is an unsolvable problem and the end is going to be a REAL blowout :(

This is a bit confusing.  I thought your vantage point was that the Palestinians should be offered everything prior to 1967??   Then you continue on with laughable innuendos (the Palis teach their children to hate Jews which is why, I suppose, you believe Israel has a Right to keep on building settlements). Just total biased banality.

Then this.

"once we agree on final borders we will accept the state of Israel as the eternal homeland of the Jewish people"

Are you aware of this?
Netanyahu: Israel will never share Jerusalem with Palestinians

or this?
Mayor backs Netanyahu over ongoing East Jerusalem construction

I like this part from the second link:

Quote

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said this week, "Our policy on Jerusalem is the same policy followed by all Israeli governments for the 42 years, and it has not changed."
"As far as we are concerned, building in Jerusalem is the same as building in Tel Aviv," said Netanyahu.


Edited by Black Red Devil, 26 April 2013 - 04:56 AM.

We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell

- Oscar Wilde

#84    SCFan

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:50 AM

View Postand then, on 25 April 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

I don't believe in replacement theology BJ - have a nice day man.

Replacement theology? That is what Christian Zionist dub the New Covenant. Did you even bother to read what I posted or did you fail to grasp its implications?

God promised the Israel and Jewish people a new covenant.

The Jews rejected Christ and his kingdom thus the kingdom of God will be taken from them and given to people (gentiles) that will produce the fruit thereof.

Under the New Covenant there is no longer any distinction between the Jew and Gentile, that is those individuals who are inwardly circumcised (both Jew and Gentile), and drink from that same Spirit (the Holy Spirit). The Gentiles are now part of Israel. Gentiles are now the offspring of Abraham. Gentiles are now heirs of the promises bestowed upon Abraham through faith in Christ Jesus. All of Israel is SAVED. The blindness of the Jews is so all of Israel may be saved. All of Israel is SAVED, do you get it?

Lending any credence to the significance of Zionist state of Israel is taking the proverbial step backwards to Bronze age apostasy according to Scriptures. Supporting the State of Israel is supporting the suffering of literally millions of souls. All for what? Christ's Kingdom is not of this Earth and is not governed by man nor principalities and powers.

And I ask you this question again, what is the one single requirement God gave to the Jews in order for them to become the POSSESSORS of the land of Palestine/Israel? What is the one single condition they must meet?

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#85    and then

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:01 PM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 26 April 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

This is a bit confusing.  I thought your vantage point was that the Palestinians should be offered everything prior to 1967??   Then you continue on with laughable innuendos (the Palis teach their children to hate Jews which is why, I suppose, you believe Israel has a Right to keep on building settlements). Just total biased banality.

Then this.

"once we agree on final borders we will accept the state of Israel as the eternal homeland of the Jewish people"

Are you aware of this?
Netanyahu: Israel will never share Jerusalem with Palestinians

or this?
Mayor backs Netanyahu over ongoing East Jerusalem construction

I like this part from the second link:
So Netanyahu is a stooge when it fits your version of events but he's his own man, unanswerable to Obama on anything when that suits you as well?  Talk about confusing.  Bibi has bent like a twig in a gale every time an American president has demanded it.  As for the rest I believe you are just making excuses to keep from admitting the truth of my statement.  The Palestinians will NEVER utter the phrase "Israel is the home of the Jewish people", they would rather hate and fight throughout eternity.  So....okay....  but don't cry about it like spoiled children when you get spanked  :)

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#86    and then

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:05 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 26 April 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

Replacement theology? That is what Christian Zionist dub the New Covenant. Did you even bother to read what I posted or did you fail to grasp its implications?

God promised the Israel and Jewish people a new covenant.

The Jews rejected Christ and his kingdom thus the kingdom of God will be taken from them and given to people (gentiles) that will produce the fruit thereof.

Under the New Covenant there is no longer any distinction between the Jew and Gentile, that is those individuals who are inwardly circumcised (both Jew and Gentile), and drink from that same Spirit (the Holy Spirit). The Gentiles are now part of Israel. Gentiles are now the offspring of Abraham. Gentiles are now heirs of the promises bestowed upon Abraham through faith in Christ Jesus. All of Israel is SAVED. The blindness of the Jews is so all of Israel may be saved. All of Israel is SAVED, do you get it?

Lending any credence to the significance of Zionist state of Israel is taking the proverbial step backwards to Bronze age apostasy according to Scriptures. Supporting the State of Israel is supporting the suffering of literally millions of souls. All for what? Christ's Kingdom is not of this Earth and is not governed by man nor principalities and powers.

And I ask you this question again, what is the one single requirement God gave to the Jews in order for them to become the POSSESSORS of the land of Palestine/Israel? What is the one single condition they must meet?
Obedience.  And this is why they have suffered and ARE suffering for so long.  They have been disobedient and they rejected their messiah.  BJ if you want to believe that God is finished with Israel then by all means rave on.  Just don't waste your time trying to convince me of it.  Or perhaps you are trying to convince others here... go for it.  But the fact is that most really don't care.  They are unconcerned about these things until they have to be.  But people like you who can grasp it and intentionally choose the wrong side - THAT is another matter.  I feel badly for you.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#87    SCFan

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 05:58 AM

View Postand then, on 26 April 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

Obedience.  And this is why they have suffered and ARE suffering for so long.  They have been disobedient and they rejected their messiah.  BJ if you want to believe that God is finished with Israel then by all means rave on.  Just don't waste your time trying to convince me of it.  Or perhaps you are trying to convince others here... go for it.  But the fact is that most really don't care.  They are unconcerned about these things until they have to be.  But people like you who can grasp it and intentionally choose the wrong side - THAT is another matter.  I feel badly for you.

How can Christian Zionism stand in the face of the whole Deuteronomy chapter 30, Ezekiel 11:16-21, Ezekiel 36:22-38, Ezekiel 37:21-28? (I decided not post these verses, because I don't want to diminish their messages with a wall of scriptural text, but those that do read theses verses I hope read them carefully as these verse speak of sequences of import, certain relevant things must come to pass before other things can dream of ever coming to pass in that there is a specific order of events in these 4 Bible passages.)

Zionism doesn't restore the Jews to the Holy Land, the Messiah restores the Jews to the Holy Land.

But I will have compassion on the house of Judah and deliver them by the Lord their God, and will not deliver them by bow, sword, battle, horses, or horsemen. Hosea 1:7

'... Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the Lord of hosts. Zechariah 4:6

"Woe to the REBELLIOUS children," declares the Lord, "Who execute a plan, but NOT mine, and make an alliance, but NOT of My Spirit, in order to ADD sin to sin." Isaiah 30:1

UNLESS the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain who build it; UNLESS the Lord guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain. Psalm 127:1

Christian Zionism is quackery, didn't Jesus warn us to identify them by their fruits whether they were good or bad, genuine or imposters?!

What fruits can Christians identify in Zionism and the State of Israel?

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#88    and then

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 03:13 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 27 April 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

How can Christian Zionism stand in the face of the whole Deuteronomy chapter 30, Ezekiel 11:16-21, Ezekiel 36:22-38, Ezekiel 37:21-28? (I decided not post these verses, because I don't want to diminish their messages with a wall of scriptural text, but those that do read theses verses I hope read them carefully as these verse speak of sequences of import, certain relevant things must come to pass before other things can dream of ever coming to pass in that there is a specific order of events in these 4 Bible passages.)

Zionism doesn't restore the Jews to the Holy Land, the Messiah restores the Jews to the Holy Land.

But I will have compassion on the house of Judah and deliver them by the Lord their God, and will not deliver them by bow, sword, battle, horses, or horsemen. Hosea 1:7

'... Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the Lord of hosts. Zechariah 4:6

"Woe to the REBELLIOUS children," declares the Lord, "Who execute a plan, but NOT mine, and make an alliance, but NOT of My Spirit, in order to ADD sin to sin." Isaiah 30:1

UNLESS the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain who build it; UNLESS the Lord guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain. Psalm 127:1

Christian Zionism is quackery, didn't Jesus warn us to identify them by their fruits whether they were good or bad, genuine or imposters?!

What fruits can Christians identify in Zionism and the State of Israel?
Perhaps the lives of about  7 million human beings trying to live in a land  their fathers died for?  Give it a rest, BJ.  I'm not buying what you're selling.  Make all the points of piety you care to, the bottom line is that your righteousness does not extend to protecting Jews in Israel.  You would have no compunction at seeing them wholesale removed from the land and I do not think, though I could be mistaken, that it would not bother you overmuch if their removal was done violently and with great loss of life.  If you are correct then Israel will fail and falter and be torn from the land again.  I hope you live long enough to see that you are mistaken.

Edited by and then, 27 April 2013 - 03:13 PM.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#89    SCFan

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 05:15 PM

View Postand then, on 27 April 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Perhaps the lives of about  7 million human beings trying to live in a land  their fathers died for?  Give it a rest, BJ.  I'm not buying what you're selling.  Make all the points of piety you care to, the bottom line is that your righteousness does not extend to protecting Jews in Israel.  You would have no compunction at seeing them wholesale removed from the land and I do not think, though I could be mistaken, that it would not bother you overmuch if their removal was done violently and with great loss of life.  If you are correct then Israel will fail and falter and be torn from the land again.  I hope you live long enough to see that you are mistaken.

Gimme a break, and again! :no:

Fact: 60% of Jews reside in diaspora

Fact: 40% of Jews reside in Israel

Fact: 46% of Jews reside in North America

Fact: 78% of Israeli Jews live on 14% of Israeli land.

Fact: 22% of Israeli Jews live on the remainder 86% of Israeli land.

Fact: There are 5 Million Palestinian refugees.

Fact: 80% of Palestinians are refugees.

The only solution of peace is for Israel to cease the occupation, tear down and dismantle all settlements, monetary compensation to the refugees, and grant the refugees the right of return. And then, and only then, maybe there will be greater peace in the Middle East between Jew and Arab.

EDIT: Let me point out that 20% of that 7 million living in Israel are Israeli Arabs btw.

The Central Bureau of Statistics report published Sunday reveals that 8% of Israel's Jewish population defines itself as haredi, 12% as religious, 13% as traditional-religious, 25% as traditional and 42% as secular, on a descending scale of religiosity.

Edited by B Jenkins, 27 April 2013 - 05:41 PM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#90    and then

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 05:53 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 27 April 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

Gimme a break, and again! :no:

Fact: 60% of Jews reside in diaspora

Fact: 40% of Jews reside in Israel

Fact: 46% of Jews reside in North America

Fact: 78% of Israeli Jews live on 14% of Israeli land.

Fact: 22% of Israeli Jews live on the remainder 86% of Israeli land.

Fact: There are 5 Million Palestinian refugees.

Fact: 80% of Palestinians are refugees.

The only solution of peace is for Israel to cease the occupation, tear down and dismantle all settlements, monetary compensation to the refugees, and grant the refugees the right of return. And then, and only then, maybe there will be greater peace in the Middle East between Jew and Arab.

EDIT: Let me point out that 20% of that 7 million living in Israel are Israeli Arabs btw.

The Central Bureau of Statistics report published Sunday reveals that 8% of Israel's Jewish population defines itself as haredi, 12% as religious, 13% as traditional-religious, 25% as traditional and 42% as secular, on a descending scale of religiosity.
Thanks for the statistics.  You should email those to Bibi's office and I'm sure the two sides can quickly come to some accommodation suitable for B Jenkins  :w00t:
I will take issue with your last statement as most egregious and clueless of all.  The Bible has a slightly different take on when and how ultimate peace comes to the region.  And it's not the Jews alone who will be reprimanded for their wrongs.  The Palestinians will be CRUSHED for their iniquities.  You are on the wrong side of this BJ.  You should try yoga or deep breathing exercises, man.  You get entirely too over wrought about something neither of us control.  BTW, have you ever read Don Quixote?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.




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