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Christians and oppression


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#61    Dark_Grey

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 10:27 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 13 April 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

In America the eradication (and that's not an exaggeration) of native people was never "declared."  It was a continuing 273-year enterprise starting with King Josephs' War and ending with the killing of teenagers at Wounded Knee.  The first English settlers considered their Indian neighbors to be "children of the devil."  While the war was not a "religious" war, religion played a huge part.

In one sense, the extermination of American Indians was pre-ordained by culture, biology and technology.  Biology came in to play in the form of the unwitting introduction of diseases to which the Indians had no immunity.  Perhaps 90% of the pre-Columbian population was wiped out without ever seeing a white man.
....

Your post was very informative and painted a clear, unbiased picture of the "old west" as it really was. Thanks for the good read!

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#62    tapirmusic

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 10:58 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 16 April 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.  And we have been asleep for several decades.

The current dysfunction can largely be laid at the feet of the House of Representatives and the Tea Party.

But America isn't alone:  there's injustice and oppression in every country.  If you aren't finding a problem to work on, it's because you're not looking.
Doug

What does eternal vigilance or liberty have to do with Christianity?

And exactly what current dysfunction are you blaming on the House and the Tea Party?  What an odd blanket statement that has zero relevance to the topic at hand...


#63    White Crane Feather

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 02:05 AM

View PostMichelle, on 16 April 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:



I can only assume it is bad somewhere in the vast expanse of the US, according to some people's experiences. As you can see, I live in the Bible Belt and I haven't personally experienced any of what people claim is the truth about the US in general.

As we all know, politicians and what hits the news are not atypical.
I'm not totally sure what you ment by this but the Bible belt especially rual areas is in a cacoon.

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#64    Doug1o29

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 12:52 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 16 April 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

Until and unless all of us, Christian, pagan, atheist, Satanist, Muslim, Buddhist, etc., acknowledge that it is self-interest and not a religious belief which causes oppression, we will continue to deal with oppression, maybe not by Christians this year, but maybe by Islamists, or who knows, maybe the Norse religions willl get another go at it.
Well said.

I think you could add fear to that list.  Fear of what one doesn't know or understand.

I notice that any time a group gets to be larger than about 20% of the local population, it starts getting obnoxious, provoking a backlash, which it then tries to claim is "oppression."
Doug

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#65    Doug1o29

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 01:10 PM

View Posttapirmusic, on 16 April 2013 - 10:58 PM, said:

What does eternal vigilance or liberty have to do with Christianity?
Good question, inasmuch as the guy who said it was Thomas Jefferson - somewhere between Deist and atheist.

Americans have not been paying attention to the erosion of liberties that has been going on over the past thirty years or so.  The religious right has allied itself with the Republican Party.  The Republicans, unable to actually win elections at the polls, have sought to rig elections by Gerrymandering district boundaries and putting up obstacles to voting, particularly to people they think will vote Democrat.  I could go on and on, but why don't you just watch MSNBC tonight?  There's Rachel Maddow, the Ed Show, and several others.  They tend to be a little one-sided, but at least they don't outright lie about it - like another network I could mention.

Quote

And exactly what current dysfunction are you blaming on the House and the Tea Party?  What an odd blanket statement that has zero relevance to the topic at hand...
Haven't turned on a "news" broadcast in a long time?  Speaker Boehner is currently blocking gun control simply by refusing to bring the issue to the floor for a vote.  He is Speaker of the House only because Tea Party members have thrown their support behind him.  And they are members of Congress only because the Religious Right supports them.  And they claim to be Christians, so Christianity gets involved.  Does that answer your question?

The dysfunction is simply that the wingnuts can't get enough votes to govern (and I doubt they'd know how even if they had enough).  But they have enough to block action, so that's what they do.  The strategy seems to be that they think people will blame the failures on the Democrats and re-elect the Tea Party.  Will it work?  We'll have to wait and see.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#66    Doug1o29

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 01:20 PM

View Posttapirmusic, on 11 April 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

Don't believe everything hollywood tells you.Christians haven't 'oppressed' anyone more than any other group of people have in the last 2000 years.
How many Christians were put to death by the Romans?  How many Christians were put to death by other Christians?
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#67    Abramelin

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:16 PM

View Posttapirmusic, on 11 April 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

native americans?  what on earth are you talking about?  There was never a holy war declared on native american by christians.


True, it was and is not a 'holy war' :


Norman Lewis: The Missionaries. God against the Indians.

A shocking indictment of the efforts of certain Christian sects to ""bring the pagan to Christ,"" even if it costs the pagan's life.

Over the years, Lewis (Naples '44, The Honored Society) has roamed the world from Indochina to Central and South America and in all these locations has discovered depredations wrought on native populations by missionaries. This autobiography-cum-travel-report opens with a brief recapitulation of the exploitation of the native tribes of the South Pacific by the missionary societies of Europe during the 18th and 19th centuries.

Today, Lewis points out, the process continues in the ""undeveloped"" areas of the world, where evangelists are now frequently in league with resource-hungry multinational entrepreneurs. Their combined methods include land-grabs, cultural debasement, slavery, and outright murder.

Two of the most predatory of the Christian groups, according to Lewis, are the duplicitously named Summer Institute of Linguistics and The New Tribes Mission. Convinced that they alone hold the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, these fundamentalist outfits are unrelenting in seeking converts. Their members can be found around the globe; Lewis interviews many of the missionaries in scenes that are classic confrontations between humanitarianism and close-minded fanaticism.

The documentation here is scrupulous, and Lewis makes his points with tellingly understated effectiveness. He also interweaves his exposé with lovingly rendered descriptions of the indigenous people he encounters and the places he ventures into--Guatemala, Mexico, French-held Vietnam in the 1950's, Paraguay. Among his most intriguing portraits is that of Ramon Medina, a shaman of Mexico's Huichol tribe who accompanies Lewis into unexplored (and dangerous) back country. A work that will shock and scandalize as it alerts readers to the widespread genocides that exist today.

https://www.kirkusre...st-the-indians/


Product Description
From Library Journal

Based on his experiences with missionaries in Southeast Asia and Central and Latin America, Lewis has written a scathing account of how some missionary sects deal with indigenous peoples in their bid for the conquest of souls. He cites the creation of fear and the establishment of dependency upon goods which, without becoming wage-earners, the Indians could not procure. As native peoples are hurried through the process of acculturation, Indian customs and ways of life, ceremonies, art, music, and dance are often lost only to be replaced by illness, apathy, and forced labor. This volume combines autobiography, travel writing, and social commentary.

Reviews
This book reveals the scandalous abuse of indigenous tribes from all over the world but especially South American. It leads one to believe that all US non-conforming off-the-wall religious sects should be banned from all foreign travel. I thought that such barbarity in the name of religious conversion had ended centuries ago. This book should be serialised in a broadsheet newspaper of repute so that it can be brought to general attention the criminality of the US missionaries. All South American governments should prohibit their activity and put an end to their preying on innocent people of the world.

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A brave, intelligent and socially responsible account of the dastardly work of recent North American missionary organisations, often in cohort with morally corrupt government officials, in their quest to "civilise" or exterminate "less Godly" ancient cultures in remoter regions of the world. The book focuses on South America but has many ramifications for other parts of the world where - frighteningly - such atrocious activities are ongoing today in different forms but essentially with the same bag of tricks, most recently in several tsunami hit countries in 2005. The author calmly exposes the extent to which supposedly Christian organisations are prepared to go, possibly in pursuit of their own very contorted, self serving ideals. A rare fascinating look under the skin of modern missionaries, the book deserves wide coverage.

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If you don't buy the book, at least research the Panare Indians and see how the church created a tailor-made NT for these folks,(not that long ago), saying that the Panare had murdered Jesus and basically blackmailing them into submission. A true religion doesn't resort to lies, deception and murder
.


http://www.amazon.ca...s/dp/0070376131



New Tribes Mission Abuse
http://fandaeagles.com/


Complaint Against New Tribes Mission
http://www.akha.org/...ibesmission.pdf


Present-day genocide and cultural extermination
The crimes committed by today's missionaries (mainly the evangelical kinds like the Baptists, but also established Churches like the Catholic and mainstream Protestant ones) are too numerous to relate. Only a few such cases are mentioned below.


http://freetruth.50webs.org/D4a.htm


#68    Abramelin

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:23 PM

Now I am NOT saying Christians are like I described/quoted in my former post, but under the flag of 'converting the heathens' many Christian missionaries go to great lengths to achieve their goal. And then I am being polite....

And I can assure anyone, Christian or not, your blood will boil after reading Norman Lewis' book.

Mine did.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 April 2013 - 05:27 PM.


#69    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:51 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 April 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Now I am NOT saying Christians are like I described/quoted in my former post, but under the flag of 'converting the heathens' many Christian missionaries go to great lengths to achieve their goal. And then I am being polite....

And I can assure anyone, Christian or not, your blood will boil after reading Norman Lewis' book.

Mine did.

.
Blood so hot I use it to make coffee. However, never underestimate the amount of boneheaded denial about this sort of thing. There will soon be screams of "But they aren't real Christians" etc etc ad nauseum


#70    Abramelin

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:25 PM

Bit more:

In Guatemala and Mexico, Bolivia and Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador and Peru, Protestant missions were established among the most remote and recalcitrant tribes of the interior. This expansion was facilitated by the evangelicals’ willingness to render almost everything unto Caesar. As other Churches in Latin America, notably the Catholic Church, entered into conflict with governments and business interests over questions of social justice and the rights of indigenous peoples, evangelicals came into their own, favoured by governments over Catholic missionaries even in these die-hard Catholic countries. For evangelicals do not concern themselves with human rights or social justice; they do not criticise government policy. To them – at least this is the charitable explanation – such questions are an irrelevance in view of the imminent coming of the Kingdom. At best evangelicals are quietist. At worst they are in active alliance with ranchers, loggers and mining interests, for they travel with the paradoxical baggage of imperial millenialism, where a vision of the end of the world is imbued with the values of a business civilisation, of capitalism triumphant. Missionaries of the evangelical persuasion are often the first to introduce their converts to wage labour, capital accumulation and the concept of land tenure, with attendant inequities and cruelties.

http://www.lrb.co.uk...ryle/worlds-end


Another major concern of Lewis's was the impact of missionary activity on tribal societies in Latin America and elsewhere. He was hostile to the activities of missionaries, especially American evangelicals. This is covered in the volume, The Missionaries and several shorter pieces. He frequently said that he regarded his life's major achievement as the worldwide reaction to writing on tribal societies in South America. In 1968, his article "Genocide in Brazil", published in the Sunday Times, created such an outcry that it led to the creation of the organisation Survival International, dedicated to the protection of first peoples around the world.

http://en.wikipedia...._Lewis_(author)

The Missionaries is a searing examination of attempts by North American fundamentalist Christian missionaries to convert indigenous tribes around the globe. In a distillation of a lifetime"s observation on the ground, Norman Lewis contrasts the self-contained, peaceful traditions of the tribal peoples he so admires with the violence, the ruthless double-standards and the greed of the men and women who seek to convert them. Lewis"s description leaves the reader devastated by man"s capacity for cruelty and with no doubt as to which of the two – missionaries or tribespeople – has developed the more admirable culture. It was Lewis"s writing on this subject that led to the birth of Survival International, which seeks to counter his gloomy prediction that ‘in another thirty years no trace of aboriginal life anywhere in the world will have survived".

http://www.bol.com/n...00000011689034/


#71    IamsSon

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:27 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 17 April 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Blood so hot I use it to make coffee. However, never underestimate the amount of boneheaded denial about this sort of thing. There will soon be screams of "But they aren't real Christians" etc etc ad nauseum
If I commit a murder in your name, quote your words, but out of context, does that mean you condone the murder?

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#72    White Crane Feather

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:34 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 17 April 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

If I commit a murder in your name, quote your words, but out of context, does that mean you condone the murder?
Not at all, but If I continue to let you use my name without defending it, it begs the question.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#73    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:34 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 17 April 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

If I commit a murder in your name, quote your words, but out of context, does that mean you condone the murder?
same old, same old. these excuses for your religion are very predictable and tiresome. tell it to the marines , not me.....


#74    White Crane Feather

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:36 PM

It appears that cane is still in the process of killing his brother.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#75    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:54 PM

What is suggested here is that "real" Christians cannot do anything against what is told in the bible. So, anybody who claims to be a Christian yet breaks any teaching of Christ, is not a Christian at all, they are something else. What exactly?  And further, it would seem that a vast number of people who have lived since Christ, and who thought they were Christians, are now presumably condemned to hell or whatever. All those who went on crusades or condoned the burning of witches, and that would be a very large number of people, none of them were Christian? Anybody, no matter who, who comitted any "sin" no matter how small, they are no longer Christians. How many popes were not Christian. Seems anybody wanting to be Christian has to rigidly conform to the views of one part of Christianity, or be forever cast into the void.

Oh I give up in the face of these blockheads. I never saw so much wriggling and squirming in my life. You "Christians" or whatever you are, are simply not worth my time. I leave. There, now you can make some blockheaded comment after mine and claim some hollow "victory". I really don't give a ....





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