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The History of Schizophrenia


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#316    notforgotten

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:21 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 30 April 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

Well I have to put in my oar, even though my better judgement says I shouldn't.  "Notforgotten" is sick, and an object lesson on too much religion (although I hasten to say that I don't think his religious views cause his problems, but that they are the main symptom).  In my country he would be either in an institution or at a minium on a regime of mandatory medical treatment -- and he would be a much happier person.
Your personal attack is unwarranted. I am neither sick nor a lesson for anyone to learn. I'm merely trying to open some eyes to the truth.


#317    Frank Merton

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:34 AM

View Postnotforgotten, on 30 April 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Your personal attack is unwarranted. I am neither sick nor a lesson for anyone to learn. I'm merely trying to open some eyes to the truth.
I can see where you would think it was a personal attack, but it was really an attempt, albeit a probably hopeless attempt, to break through your barriers.  Just remember that others see your assertions as personal attacks too but overlook them.


#318    dundundun

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 09:33 AM

Notforgotten,
  Being mentally ill myself I can tell you that yes, there is a grave injustice being done against us. It's called social stigma, improper education, conditions of mental hospitals and the fact that it is OKAY that pharmaceutical companies pay doctors to push certain medications. (Which doesn't just go for psychotropics).

Speaking of which, I have permanent  brain damage from too high, too many and for too long of practically forced medications.

Think about it, in terms of haunted places, what carries the most suffering - mental hospitals.

As soon as you have a label of mentally ill EVERYTHING changes. I have not had one normal conversation by people who know me since they found out. EVERYONE treats me differently... even my family. And just when I think I might be having a normal conversatio n the same question always pops up "So, how are you?"  In the someone just died tonality. It's been 7 years since I was diagnosed for **** sake!
   I've had to been hospitalized 4 times in the past 6 years, so maybe I can understand the concern. But I don't need to be treated so differently. Isolated.

As far as being in the hospital, every time was a nightmare. NIGHTMARE!!!! It's a game. It's all a ******* game. And if you want to get out you have to know how to play. If you don't know how to play, or refuse to play then you aren't getting out for ****. I could write a book about my experiences, the details of the game, what they do, etc. But I honestly doubt anyone would believe me. :/

As far as delusions of being able to speak to god etc., associated with Schizophrenia, unfortunately, they are just delusions.

If someone does not have Schizophrenia and claims to speak to god then its either someone after fame, one who really can, or the pope.

I suggest you educate yourself with the ins and outs of the disease, as well as other mentally illnesses. - that would be a great gift. :)



#319    notforgotten

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 10:23 AM

View Postdundundun, on 30 April 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

As far as delusions of being able to speak to god etc., associated with Schizophrenia, unfortunately, they are just delusions.
I know many schizophrenics that swear that what they see and hear is real. Upon examination, most of these people would agree that it is mostly evil spirits. I've seen real pictures taken by a couple of diagnosed schizophrenics of the spirits they have seen. Clearly, it is not in their heads. The devil, wanting to be God, might masquerade as God, deceiving a person, causing a delusion of talking with God. It's not uncommon for people to misinterpret the invisible spirit world.

On the other hand, there are those schizophrenics (I believe not having given it much thought themselves) that believe what the doctors tell them, that research implies that it is a brain disorder and that none of it is real.


#320    Beany

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:36 PM

Is this topic about mental illness, or about demons, evil spirits & religious beliefs? Whatever, it's a circular argument and it's always going to chase its tail.


#321    Frank Merton

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:57 PM

I don't see why you call the argument circular.  Sure it goes round and round and no one ever convinces anyone of anything, but "circular" means an argument that uses its premises for its proof.

There are two competing theories here: that mental illness is cause by evil demons and that mental illness is caused by brain dysfunction or disease.  Take your choice.

It occurs to me that maybe the brain dysfunction or disease is caused by evil demons.


#322    Einsteinium

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 02:28 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 30 April 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

I don't see why you call the argument circular.  Sure it goes round and round and no one ever convinces anyone of anything, but "circular" means an argument that uses its premises for its proof.

There are two competing theories here: that mental illness is cause by evil demons and that mental illness is caused by brain dysfunction or disease.  Take your choice.

It occurs to me that maybe the brain dysfunction or disease is caused by evil demons.

Or it could be that the 'evil demons' are a symptom of the brain dysfunction that is the disease ;)


#323    dundundun

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 03:04 PM

;_!1:.


#324    dundundun

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 03:21 PM

Oops sorry! Consider that ^ courtesy of Batman and Cosmo! Lol

Anyway, I'm interested in what you have to say.

May I ask, what is it that your friends believe?


#325    scowl

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:51 PM

View Postnotforgotten, on 30 April 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

The psychiatrist does not have a shred of evidence.

There are decades of clinical studies that prove that medication is effective. There have been hundreds of articles in medical journals on scientific studies that show that certain neurological chemicals like dopamine are related to the disorder. The research continues and is far beyond the scope of this thread.

Quote

They will simply tell you that "they do not believe that schizophrenia is caused by evil spirits". Their research merely "implies" that schizophrenia is a brain disorder.

Yes, just like the red shift of distant galaxies "imply" that they moving away from us. Just like geological studies "imply" that the Earth is billions of years old. Just like studies "imply" that bacteria cause tooth decay and cigarettes cause cancer.

I understand religion far better than you understand science.

Quote

No psychiatrist will tell you anything different. Many schizophrenics have taken pictures of what they have seen.

This is a good one! Why yes, they have taken pictures however they will "interpret" them for you in amazing ways. For example one well known paranoid schizophrenic has an entire web site devoted to pictures of planes and helicopters he has taken. This may sound pointless, but the schizophrenic will explain that these distant aircraft were spying on him and reading his mind.

Quote

Many schizophrenics know that it is real and not in their heads.

The first lie you tell us is that schizophrenics believe their delusions. In fact most realize these delusions are the result of a mental disorder and seek help.

The second lie you keep telling us is that all schizophrenics are constantly tormented and suffering. Actually a large number of schizophrenics are doing very well on medication and live fairly normal lives. A surprising number of people have acute schizophrenia and can go long periods without symptoms and only take medication when they start experiencing them.

Your third lie is that medication does nothing and no schizophrenics take it. I have seen schizophrenics recover in a hospital after getting proper medication.

Your fourth lie is that you believe all schizophrenics describe evil spirits. I can say that thirty years ago very few schizophrenics I saw had religious delusions. Most delusions were about the intentions of friends and family members. A close second were delusions about the government and the police (they were usually loners). One person had delusions about aliens. The vast majority had rather mundane hallucinations and many of them were just experiencing fogginess and lack of concentration which is an early sign of the disease. From what I've heard talking to a social worker, delusions about implants and satellites beaming messages into their heads is the most common these days.

I can only remember three who had any delusions of a religious nature. One did believe in them and refused to take medication because they "interfered" with her "communication" with supernatural beings.

The second stopped having religious delusions after being put on medication. He was one of the patients who was able to return to college very quickly after being diagnosed. When he came in, he honestly believed that his room mates were devil worshipers but on a follow up visit, he told us that he now understood they just had bad taste in music! When this guy first came in, he wouldn't even smile. A month later he was making jokes!

The third certainly had religious delusions which bothered her family but they were not interfering with her life in any way and there were no indications that she was any danger to herself or anyone. On this basis, no medication was prescribed for her and she was released.

scowl said:

Clearly you can do nothing but repeat it over and over which is a waste of everyone's time.

Quote

Not as many times as this lie been repeated in the minds of the American people. The truth is seldom a waste of time for anybody, only for those that refuse to see it.

So your plan isn't to prove your theory by giving us persuasive evidence. Your plan is to repeat your nonsense over and over, as if that will convince someone.

scowl said:

Go file a law suit and see how quickly your claim falls apart in front of rational people.

Quote

The rational people that you speak of are incapable of understanding the unseen.

Wait! They're unseen? You said they have taken pictures of these spirits. Surely these pictures you spoke of earlier would convince them.

Quote

Results are something that only God can see. They are beyond my scope.


Actually results are something that anyone can see. That's the difference between you and me. The months I worked in a mental ward for college credit taught me more about schizophrenia than any book. I can describe schizophrenia from the experiences I had working with them and how they were treated. You can only speak about them in supernatural diatribes against invisible spirits.

Quote

The truth can not harm anyone, but could lead them to loving God and a distaste for sin to be delivered from this evil, our enemy, the devils and further punishment in the afterlife. The lie is destructive and can lead the schizophrenic to joining those persecuting souls in the afterlife.

Yet you have not seen any schizophrenics cured by your loving God. To us rational people, that tells the tale.


#326    White Crane Feather

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 08:26 PM

View PostTheater of Dreams, on 29 April 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:



That's a good slap in the face to any Schizophrenic person. To have to suffer from tortuous symptoms and then to be accused of deserving it. Shame on you.
Especially to children suffering from the disease. Who have never done a sinful thing in their lives. Shame on those who think they know the mind of god and acuse people of sins they have never committed. What's that about false witness?????

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#327    Mabon

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 08:56 PM

View Postnotforgotten, on 12 April 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

The history of schizophrenia goes back thousands of years. Over the centuries, schizophrenics have been considered mystics, saints, possessed by evil spirits or servants of the Devil. Schizophrenia treatment in history has been as gentle as using music and as violent as resorting to ice pick surgery.

Schizophrenia Treatment: History And Evolution? http://www.tree.com/...ia-history.aspx

I believe that the American Psychiatric Association has squashed the true testimonies of millions of witnesses to God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, angels, saints in heaven as well as demons and evil spirits by their over one hundred year old lie that it's all in these peoples' heads. These are the same people that would kill people by drilling holes in their heads trying to release evil spirits. The same people that would also kill people by cutting the frontal lobe of the brain out of them. One scientist got a Nobel Peace prize for doing this. They tried insulin injections which often left people in a coma. And they would give them enough electric shock treatments at such a high voltage as to make their brains mush. Are these the people that you want to trust and believe? I believe that those poor lowly "crazy" people that have said that they've talked to God, seen angels and the devil have been telling the truth all along and it's the modern day psychiatrist that has been lying. I believe that a grave injustice have been done against these people and it's high time people knew the truth.

Hello Notforgotten.

I know this thread is 22 pages long ( I actually have been reading the whole thing) but it seems as if your opening post is your point so it seems as good a place as any to start.

Your perception of mental illness isn't a new one but I am curious why you think going back toward older practices is an ideal way to deal with mental illness in the 21st century? Even the Catholic Church who as of 1999 revised it's position on demonic possession and mental screening is now used prior to exorcisms.

You have stated in later posts that you don't blame those afflicted for their condition, since all humans sin, but you've never revealed why you think only certain persons are afflicted with demonic oppression/possession/schizophrenia? You have also not talked about the more positive side of this as you claim that mystics and saints are also schizophrenic?

I am also curious as why you only target mental illness wouldn't any horrific disease also allude to sin and demonic torture? I know this is also an old idea that people were marked by their sin with deformity and physical sickness so why are you targeting only this one area? What sins are worse so as to invoke this torment?

What led you to believe that you can speak with God's approval or authority?  Are you an ordained minister or do you consider yourself to be one of the people blessed with schizophrenic mysticism and receive this information through an epiphany? If it was through an epiphany did you contact you minister/priest to understand this information, how to deliver this message and get approval to do so? Do you think that you are at odds with the orthodox view of the religion you practice?

It seems throughout your posts that you are attempting to tell people that you know what schizophrenia is and how you can cure them, so what is your track record for this? How many people a week does Jesus Christ or God using you as a vessel to spread this message cure? Ok, so maybe cure might be too strong lets say you help them find their way toward mental stability through the rejection of sin? How do you do this, is it through an outreach program, going door to door, local church, street corner preaching, internet blogs or forums? What is your method for reaching and knowing that you are making a difference (again this is with the understanding that you actually aren't doing this but that God or Jesus Christ as intercessor is working through you.)  Most Biblical prophets or people called to do God's bidding were able to see results of their effort so why aren't you? If you claim that only God knows the truth of using you to help then are you sure that what you are doing is really God's will and not your own or Satan's? I mean most people would want to know what they are doing is helping rather than continue in a direction that may be causing further harm or actually turning people away from God.



Mabon.

One need not be a chamber to be haunted;
One need not be a house;
The brain has corridors surpassing
Material place.  ~ Emily Dickinson


#328    Lava_Lady

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 10:34 PM

In recalling Einsteins quote posted earlier, "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

People, the OP had an opinion that most of us had deemed irrational, irresponsible, and down right nonsense; we've asked him to explain, justify, and prove.  

We got one answer repeatedly.

Proof hasn't been provided because there is no proof to back this theory.  There is only rhetoric yet the argument continues.

The chance of changing his mind is as great as his chances of changing ours... in other words, waste of time and energy.

In conclusion, I present my theory:  the purpose of the OP is to bring the rational mind to a state of such frustration and irritation that it mimics the schizophrenics hallucinatory state, ie muttering to oneself, acting out physically like striking the computer, them out can be said that we are possessed by demons and being punished as non believers.

22 pages...  22 pages people.  22 pages of the same answer to every question
.




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#329    notforgotten

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 04:21 AM

View Postdundundun, on 30 April 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

May I ask, what is it that your friends believe?
I know many schizophrenics that swear that what they see and hear is real. Upon examination, most of these people would agree that it is mostly evil spirits. I've seen real pictures taken by a couple of diagnosed schizophrenics of the spirits they have seen. Clearly, it is not in their heads.

On the other hand, there are those schizophrenics (I believe not having given it much thought themselves) that believe what the doctors tell them, that research implies that it is a brain disorder and that they believe none of it is real.


#330    notforgotten

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 04:28 AM

The Truth about Schizophrenia


Schizophrenia is temporal punishment due to sin. Although, the Catholic Church views schizophrenia as the same mental illness described by psychiatry, they would have to discern whether a person is undergoing temporal punishment on an individual basis. I believe that schizophrenia is always temporal punishment and that the church has been misled by psychiatry.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church on temporal punishment is as follows:

Temporal punishment is purification of the unhealthy attachment to creatures, which is a consequence of sin that perdues even after death. We must be purified either during our earthly life through prayer and a conversion which comes from fervent charity (love for God & neighbor), or after death in purgatory.

Every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in a state called purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. This punishment must not be conceived as kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin still remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man".


This is the best material I can find for the Christian who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia.

Edited by notforgotten, 01 May 2013 - 04:31 AM.





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