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Dynasty 4 papyrus and port found in Sinai


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#16    kmt_sesh

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:15 PM

View Postblackdogsun, on 14 April 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

hi kmt
you pointed out in another thread herethat Khufu's birth name and horus name have been found so far on the papyri recovered.
i know they have only found fragments so far, but i was wondering: is there any significance that might be conveyed if Khufu's official title as pharaoh is not present on any of the documents found?

Hi, blackdogsun. I'm not sure if I fully understand your question about "Khufu's official title" but I'm going to take a stab at it.

The designation "pharaoh" for an Egyptian king (from the ancient Egyptian term pr-aA, "Great House," referring to the palace) did not exist in Khufu's time. It doesn't appear until Dynasty 18, a thousand years after Dynasty 4. The most common word for king was nsw, and this was used in all periods. There were of course numerous other ways to refer to kings (e.g., Lord of the Two Lands, He of the Sedge and Bee). Such designations usually precede the cartouche. I'm seeing the same images of the ancient papyri anyone else here can see on the internet, and those portions with Khufu's names are not preserved to the extent of material preceding the names, so I can't be sure what's there.

But the fact that his formal throne name, Khnum-Khuf, is written inside a cartouche and his Horus name, Medjedu, is inside a serekh, confirm his status as king. Only monarchs were permitted to write their names with these devices.

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#17    kmt_sesh

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:19 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 14 April 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

I thought the most intersting part is this, and I quote from the article

That is indeed very interesting, Atentutankh. I had come across that same web page but didn't give it much attention because I thought the graphics frame at the top was for a video, and I wasn't interested in viewing a video. I didn't know it was a scrolling graphic with more information in each frame. I'm glad you pointed it out.

If nothing else it's more ammunition against the silly idea that the masonry blocks were made of concrete. Obviously an official being sent to a quarry to secure masonry for the project, was not counting on concrete.

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#18    blackdogsun

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:30 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 14 April 2013 - 11:15 PM, said:

Hi, blackdogsun. I'm not sure if I fully understand your question about "Khufu's official title" but I'm going to take a stab at it.

The designation "pharaoh" for an Egyptian king (from the ancient Egyptian term pr-aA, "Great House," referring to the palace) did not exist in Khufu's time. It doesn't appear until Dynasty 18, a thousand years after Dynasty 4. The most common word for king was nsw, and this was used in all periods. There were of course numerous other ways to refer to kings (e.g., Lord of the Two Lands, He of the Sedge and Bee). Such designations usually precede the cartouche. I'm seeing the same images of the ancient papyri anyone else here can see on the internet, and those portions with Khufu's names are not preserved to the extent of material preceding the names, so I can't be sure what's there.

But the fact that his formal throne name, Khnum-Khuf, is written inside a cartouche and his Horus name, Medjedu, is inside a serekh, confirm his status as king. Only monarchs were permitted to write their names with these devices.

oh, ok. thanks Kmt
so the names 'Khufu' and 'Khnum-Khuf' are actually one and the same (?)


#19    The_Spartan

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:33 PM

Some are claiming it to be the oldest port, dating from 2,600 BC.
How old is it exactly??
Which is the oldest port as of current consensus?? Byblos Port? Byblos is dated to around 3000 BC.
Any info?

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#20    kmt_sesh

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:11 AM

View Postblackdogsun, on 15 April 2013 - 02:30 AM, said:

oh, ok. thanks Kmt
so the names 'Khufu' and 'Khnum-Khuf' are actually one and the same (?)

Yes, same guy.

View PostThe_Spartan, on 15 April 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

Some are claiming it to be the oldest port, dating from 2,600 BC.
How old is it exactly??
Which is the oldest port as of current consensus?? Byblos Port? Byblos is dated to around 3000 BC.
Any info?

That's one of the problems with internet articles, if not the media in general. How does one define "oldest"? The oldest in Egypt (which is how I'm taking it) or the oldest in the Near East? I frankly don't know anything of substance about ports of ancient Byblos so I can't comment on that, but as of now the Suez discovery marks the oldest port known in Egypt. Prior to this discovery it was the port of Mersa Gawasis on the west coast of the Red Sea. That one dates primarily to Dynasty 12 (beginning c. 1991 BCE).

I've seen other inaccuracies in web articles about the Suez discovery, including that the papyri found there are the oldest yet found. The oldest ever found came from a Dynasty 1 tomb at Saqqara and is around 5,000 years old, but there's no writing on it. But without a doubt the Suez papyri is now the oldest to contain hieroglyphic writing. Off the top of my head I can't think of papyri with hieratic script dating to this time or earlier, so it may be the oldest-known papyri containing a written script in Egypt.

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#21    Child of Bast

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 03:38 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 13 April 2013 - 03:23 AM, said:

It goes to show, there is always something more for archaeologists to find.

I'm just glad there's stuff still around to be found and not stolen.

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#22    Silver Surfer

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:52 PM

The aliens planted it to TriX US :o lol


#23    Silver Surfer

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:57 PM

Many of the papyri describe how the central administration, under the reign of Cheops, sent food -- mainly bread and beer -- to the workers involved in the Egyptian expeditions departing from the port.
BEER for the workers! Cheops was a good man!


#24    kmt_sesh

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 05:57 AM

View PostKasey2601, on 17 April 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

I'm just glad there's stuff still around to be found and not stolen.

Most archaeologists who work in Egypt today believe we have found maybe 40% of what's still out there. Some feel it's even less than that. Trust me, they'll be finding stuff in Egypt long after all of us have turned to dust.

View PostSilver Surfer, on 17 April 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

Many of the papyri describe how the central administration, under the reign of Cheops, sent food -- mainly bread and beer -- to the workers involved in the Egyptian expeditions departing from the port.
BEER for the workers! Cheops was a good man!

The Egyptians were cool that way. The oldest evidence for beer production anywhere in the world is in a prehistoric context in the Nile Valley at a site called Hierakonpolis, and dates to around 3600 BCE.

See what we owe the Egyptians!

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#25    abhijit_b

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:41 AM

Yahoo news - "He mainly reported about his many trips to the Tura limestone quarry to fetch block for the building of the pyramid," Tallet told Discovery News.

Hence proved, GP is built by Khufu.


#26    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 02:00 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 19 April 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:


The Egyptians were cool that way. The oldest evidence for beer production anywhere in the world is in a prehistoric context in the Nile Valley at a site called Hierakonpolis, and dates to around 3600 BCE.

See what we owe the Egyptians!

They enjoyed their wine too, they were 'bons vivants' :yes:





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