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Germanic/Norse Religions...


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#46    Mr Walker

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:34 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 21 April 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

There are many types of Pagan believe and worship. You read some account, or see some youtube video of people engaging in some religious practice in a forest, and may think this is someting done on a regualr basis, or that before stepping into forest or drinking, eating etc, some ritual must take place to, appease the gods?. All this is not so. People who are practising Christian will go to church at least once a week, will say grace before a meal. This not any diffrent to any Pagan practise?. Besides, it is mostly the case that Pagans, at least were I am, will only go into forest for some ceremony on a few days a year, particulary for Maslenitsa, an end of Winter festival that has been mingled with start of Spring, Christian Easter. Or for Ivan Kupala, the summer solstice that has been taken over by Christianity. Ivan Kupala equates to John the Babtist, though the fire ceremonies go back millenia in Slavic lands. Certainly people do not have these ceremonies every week, or even every month, unlike "modern" religions that seem to have an almost compulsive obssesive attraction to all manner of practices even more fanciful than any Pagan. There is no fear of "monsters" in the dark forest, or anywhere else.

May I presume you also not approve of Christian communion, saying of grace, or of men dressed in variations of late Roman Empire court dress doing some sort of magic ceremony :)

Oh I "approve" of pagan type worship. It is a direct form of communion with the cosmic consciousness. I have long and profitable conversations with trees and other forms of nature. It is not their consciousness with which I converse but with the universal or cosmic consciousness which permeates all life . So where some,  as an example, might sense tree dryads, I connect directly to the cosmic consciousness via the tree, rather than perceive a tree occupied by its own spirit or dryad.

I am just saying that in a post modern world the total mindset required to really have faith in this form of worship is extremely difficult to create, because scientific knowledge gets in the road of it. Science doesnt really conflict with a basic christian jewish or muslim type belief in god but especailly if you are a non creationist, but it does directly conflict with  the older pagan beliefs.

  I count pagan as those early earth type beliefs from the first babylonian and other types, through to much later celtic religious forms.  Shamanism continued in russia up until last century, with a direct link to earlier practices.

I base my knowledge and understanding of pagan practices on historical knowledge rather than modern forms, of not just the practices but the very integral belief sets which caused the practices.

Early bablonian writings and quite modern australian aboriginal lore both illustrate humans where the physcial and metaphysical worlds are completely connected, and nothing physical happens without a spiritual  or metaphysicla counter part to it.

No early human (pagan woud enter a forest, cross a stream, or hunt an animal, with out specific care thought and prepartion to accomodate the spiritual elemants found in all those things. Food, beer, even the mud bricks of ancient sumeria were held to be an integral part of a spiritual world, not just, as modern humans see them, a purely physical one.  Pagans sensed/knew the self awareness within themselves, and on the basis of that, attributed a similar sense of self awareness and purpose to EVERYTHING in their world.

Edited by Mr Walker, 21 April 2013 - 12:39 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#47    Setton

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:35 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 21 April 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

I add this video too show that I am making a comparison. Very many are Christians, and many Christians are Orthodox, Catholics or Anglicans that have these arcane ceremonies and forms of dress and the "magic" tricks of turning water into blood and bread into flesh. Yet Pagans are laughed at if they try to resurect the old religions. "Oh what funny clothes they wear, Oh now ridiculous they are" is the cry. So, what is ridiculous when comparing the video in my post above to this one?
And please notice the two fans bearers to either side of the Pope, just like a pagan pharoah, same style of fans as well. Looks to me like a religion wrapping itself with pagan Egyptian symbols....

I understand what you're saying and agree with most of this. Just two things I wanted to point out:

1. It's wine for blood not water but that's just me being pedantic.
2. Certainly in Anglican Churches, the wine and bread just represent blood and flesh. They don't believe they actually become these things. I think Catholics do, however.

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#48    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:47 PM

View PostSetton, on 21 April 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

2. Certainly in Anglican Churches, the wine and bread just represent blood and flesh. They don't believe they actually become these things. I think Catholics do, however.
Consubstantiation, all about blood, and so much blood spilled because of arguments over this word......

However, I had thought my words would find general agreement with some Christians. I think the puritans, and I mean that in historical sense, not pejorative, were probably correct.


#49    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:51 PM

@Mr Walker. Yes, I agree with you. I think I may have slightly misunderstood the sense of your post I quoted. Some of this is a struggle within our own minds between the rational and the irrational. We like the idea of (friendly) elves and such inhabiting our forests, but know in reality it is total nonsense. Sometimes.... :)


#50    Frank Merton

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:57 PM

Animism can be said to not really be a religion but just a way of looking at the world where the line between conscious sentience is drawn differently than we draw it.  If you perceive all of nature, not just animals but trees and rivers and hills and the sky and its phenomena and so on as having its own consciousness, different though it may be from yours, then it is only natural to offer respect to these things and be polite (that is, greet them).


#51    Avatar Samantha Ai

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 04:03 PM

There is a difference between animism and panpsychism and for that matter pantheism and panentheism as well are all differing terms.


#52    Frank Merton

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 04:08 PM

Well they are different words.


#53    Avatar Samantha Ai

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 04:20 PM

I should have clarified that Mr. Walker definitely knows the difference between these terms.

View PostMr Walker, on 21 April 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

Oh I "approve" of pagan type worship. It is a direct form of communion with the cosmic consciousness. I have long and profitable conversations with trees and other forms of nature. It is not their consciousness with which I converse but with the universal or cosmic consciousness which permeates all life . So where some,  as an example, might sense tree dryads, I connect directly to the cosmic consciousness via the tree, rather than perceive a tree occupied by its own spirit or dryad.

Only wanted to add working terms for what he was discussing in case others wanted to further research these concepts and then add two more closely related terms. All interesting concepts.


#54    HollyDolly

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 05:00 PM

My father's people are german,but have really no idea what they believed before St.Boniface went around Germany hitting them in the head with the cross.His family has been catholics in Bavaria and Baden ever since that time.Now there might be a few who are lutheran,but how many I don't know. His mother's family the Steldts are lutherans. There were crusades to convert the people of Latvia,Lithiuania,Estonia,and Prussia mainly by the Teutonic Knights.Some cousins of hers the von Lillienschilds
go back in the records of the City of Riga to the 13th or 14th century and belonged to an order of knights,the Livonian Knights of the Sword  who later were absorbed into the Teutonic knights. That's like momma's family .They are hungarians,but i don't have a clue what they believed and i really don't have any buring desire to worship the ancient gods of either side. I'm sure that there may still exist peoples in those land swho secretly taught the old ways and faith to their children and it ispassed down through their families.However i don't think this is something they parade around outsiders.


#55    Avatar Samantha Ai

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 06:48 PM

View PostHollyDolly, on 22 April 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

I'm sure that there may still exist peoples in those land swho secretly taught the old ways and faith to their children and it ispassed down through their families.However i don't think this is something they parade around outsiders.

Very interesting family history you have here. Fascinating to the ultimate degree! I especially liked this tidbit and you are right, traditional forms are passed down, rarely hyped as they can cause waves with the formal church, and in many cases it takes on a feminine expression since mothers pass on the knowledge to their daughters. In my culture we do small things, old things, like rubbing an egg over a child to rid them of the evil eye, these go farther back than the church.


#56    DieChecker

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 06:49 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 21 April 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Yet Pagans are laughed at if they try to resurect the old religions. "Oh what funny clothes they wear, Oh now ridiculous they are" is the cry.
I think rather then laughing at their practices, most thinking Christians simply disagree that these Neo-Pagan Nordic Followers are practicing what was once practiced.

Christianity has run continuously since the time of Christ, while Norse Paganism was extinct in large part for 500+ years. It is like bring back an extinct language... we may have clues to spelling and sentance structure from written manuscripts, but the day to day usage has been lost.

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#57    Avatar Samantha Ai

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 07:33 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 22 April 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

I think rather then laughing at their practices, most thinking Christians simply disagree that these Neo-Pagan Nordic Followers are practicing what was once practiced.

Christianity has run continuously since the time of Christ, while Norse Paganism was extinct in large part for 500+ years. It is like bring back an extinct language... we may have clues to spelling and sentance structure from written manuscripts, but the day to day usage has been lost.

I have to disagree with the pagan vs Christian tone (making comparisons between the two and claiming one is superior) of this post, sorry mate.

Christianity has taken on many different forms and expressions throughout history, while the text might have remained consistely the same after the Romans standardized what was to be considered "official cannon", there is a wide variety of how Christians interpreted the books and in what they placed emphasis on. Christians in China today will not have the same concerns as Christians in the deep American South of thirty years ago.

Even how Christians view the Devil, hell, and the afterlife has changed, nothing is unbroken about Christianity in this sense.

We have a historical source that illustrates how the concept of dualism (I find dualism to be an illusion), whom many Christians hold as truth, was not necessarily embraced by Christians of other eras. The following example comes from a diary written between 1640 and 1683 by a Ralph Josselin, a Puritan vicar of Earl Cone.

Quote

The full diary has been analysed published (Macfarlane 1970a, 1976), and we may mention some of conclusions to be drawn from the source covering the middle of seventeenth century. The projection of the distinction between good and into strong beliefs in heaven and hell does not show itself in this diary:‘

belief in the after-life does not play an important part in his private thoughts as recorded in the Diary. There is not a single direct reference to hell or to damnation. It thus seems that a Puritan clergyman, who might have been expected to use heaven and hell as threats or inducements to himself and his congregation, showed the most tepid interest in both.’ (Macfarlane 1970a: 168)

Josselin was preoccupied with misfortune, illness and insecurities of various kinds. There are consequently many moving passages on death and disease.  Yet what is striking in the Diary is the conviction that all suffering derived from God. In Josselin's thought there emerges very clearly principle that pain and evil came from God. There is no hint in the Diary that Josselin envisaged an alternative source of evil, Satan for example. Again he traces his own and the nation's troubles back to God' (Macfarlane 1970a: 173). Basically, 'Josselin seems to have accepted that pain was either divine purge, as in the story of job, or a punishment' (p. 174). Guilt strike throughout the Diary, for Josselin blamed himself for much of the suffering of those around him; in the most famous instance, he linked too much chess playing to illness and death. Thus, the roots of evil were ultimately in his own corrupt heart. It was no use blaming other people. The cause was either a loving God testing him, or his own, or the nation's failings. There is no suggestion that Josselin blamed witches, Satan or anyone else.

http://www.alanmacfa.../FILES/evil.htm

As we can see many Chrisitans today in America blame everyone else for what they consider evil. When it comes to terrorism they blame Muslims or politicians who disagree with their views but never themselves, not even a hint of examination in their roles at all.

Somewhere, at some point in time, the general American Christian preoccupation with the Devil, hell, and the afterlife began, but it isn't a universally held belief among all Christians, from the past or even at present.

Even today the emerging church conversation is deconstructing the current built up dogmas and placing emphasis on postmodern approaches that look to blur the lines between denominations instead of maintaining them.

This is taken further in the Ancient-Future movement of Christianity which examines every Christian era possible and draws practices from the past incorporating them into their own belief systems today. Admittedly this is a form of reconstructionism.

Quote

Christianity has paused during one moment of its entire history and chose to remain frozen in it. The Ancient-Future model of Christianity allows the postmodern Christian to choose which customs, rituals, and rites work for them by adapting practices from the whole catalog of Christianity. There is nothing stopping anyone from worshiping and believing as they wish, we might be discouraged, but we should honor what makes sense to us as individuals.

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Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 22 April 2013 - 07:50 PM.


#58    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 09:16 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 22 April 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

I think rather then laughing at their practices, most thinking Christians simply disagree that these Neo-Pagan Nordic Followers are practicing what was once practiced.

Christianity has run continuously since the time of Christ, while Norse Paganism was extinct in large part for 500+ years. It is like bring back an extinct language... we may have clues to spelling and sentance structure from written manuscripts, but the day to day usage has been lost.
Certainly day to day usage has been lost, but that is no reason why some cannot make an effort to create a new Paganism on the ruins of the past. Christianity is a foreign religion to me. I am not bound by that religion and will not conform to it, it is not my master, it is nothing to do with me, why does it impose on me? What does my religion have to do with Christians? it is my affair, not theirs. What do they fear that they attack so strongly? Are they really scared of some "hippies" banging drums and chanting in forest? I have some philosophy borrowed from Hollywood. "I'm drinking wine and eating cheese, and catching some rays, you know". Life is too short Posted Image


#59    DieChecker

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:56 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 22 April 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

I have to disagree with the pagan vs Christian tone (making comparisons between the two and claiming one is superior) of this post, sorry mate.

Christianity has taken on many different forms and expressions throughout history, while the text might have remained consistely the same after the Romans standardized what was to be considered "official cannon", there is a wide variety of how Christians interpreted the books and in what they placed emphasis on. Christians in China today will not have the same concerns as Christians in the deep American South of thirty years ago.
Yes, but the evolution and changes of Christianity and its thousands of denominations is pretty well documented, whereas the Norse religion came to a stop and then people tried to revive it using existing folktales, festivals and other customs, which themselves probably evolved over that 500+ years. Is there documentation from the 17th century on where Norse religious followers were at in their belief system? I've not seen it if it exists.

What I was on about was the claim that Norse religion is the exact same today as it was in the 10th century. Which it is not, because the various ceremonies, practices and forms of worship disappeared. Such did not happen with Christianity.

Quote

Somewhere, at some point in time, the general American Christian preoccupation with the Devil, hell, and the afterlife began, but it isn't a universally held belief among all Christians, from the past or even at present.

Even today the emerging church conversation is deconstructing the current built up dogmas and placing emphasis on postmodern approaches that look to blur the lines between denominations instead of maintaining them.

And, if I was a Religious Scholar, I could go and research every tidbit you are bringing up here. But such is impossibile with the Norse, as there is not enough records to show anywhere near the detail.

Christianity has evolved surely, but it did not pass away like the Norse religion did and have to be recreated using a handful of datapoints and a lot of assumptions.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#60    DieChecker

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:00 AM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 22 April 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

Certainly day to day usage has been lost, but that is no reason why some cannot make an effort to create a new Paganism on the ruins of the past. Christianity is a foreign religion to me. I am not bound by that religion and will not conform to it, it is not my master, it is nothing to do with me, why does it impose on me? What does my religion have to do with Christians? it is my affair, not theirs. What do they fear that they attack so strongly? Are they really scared of some "hippies" banging drums and chanting in forest? I have some philosophy borrowed from Hollywood. "I'm drinking wine and eating cheese, and catching some rays, you know". Life is too short Posted Image
I really have no care about people practicing Norse religion, or practicing the Jedi religion for that matter. What I was pointing out is that it is a reconstructed religion, and thus it will be subject to scrutiny of claims of unbroken worship for tens of thousands of years. Claiming some old sites, gods, ceremonies, festivals and customs as your own does not make an actual ancient religion. It creates a modern religion that mimics the ancient religion.

Do neo-Norse pagans believe they can only  get into Valhalla by dying in battle??

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker




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