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Best Objection against Jesus' Resurrection -


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#16    redhen

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 02:46 AM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 17 April 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

Good. :) So please, thoroughly research the resurrection of Jesus Christ and notify me when you've accepted it's miraculous. :D :P

What do you mean by thorough? I am not a polymath, and I don't know Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Latin, Coptic, or Syriac. I have not formally studied historicity or epigraphy. Likewise I have not studied archeology or historical criticism and theological interpretation of scripture. Ok, well maybe a little.

But I don't think one has to be an expert in all these fields and disciplines. There are several more plausible explanations to choose from rather than that of a miraculous resurrection of a dead man.

Off the top of my head;

p1 "orthodox" scripture was "corrupted"

p2 the early members misinterpreted an event and/or statement, much like Paul misinterpreted the imminent parousia.

p3 a coverup explanation to account for the ignoble end of yet another Messiah.

p4 the old passover plot conspiracy theory, the crucifixion was not lethal.

There are more, but I only have to posit one example that is more plausible than a dead man being brought back to life. And by dead I don't mean someone with no vital signs or someone near death who recovers and tells stories of tunnels of light etc.  I mean someone who is deceased and cannot be put back to together again, much like Humpty Dumpty.


#17    White Crane Feather

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 03:48 AM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 17 April 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:



Logical presupposition that miracles cannot occur and therefore backed on no logical grounds.
Logical bull**** my friend... Trust me ;)

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#18    eight bits

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:21 AM

AquilaChrysaetos

Quote

Logical presupposition that miracles cannot occur and therefore backed on no logical grounds.

Really? But surely Dr Habermas accepts that miracles are possible. There is no tomb of Mary except empty ones (just as there are plural candidates for Jesus' tomb). She has been sighted thousands of times, or otherwise perceived and interacted with by living people. On one occasion, in modern times, tens of thousands of people at once are reported to have watched her work an astronomical miracle in broad daylight.

Even scripturally, Paul describes Jesus as the first fruits of a general resurrection event; in which everybody will participate eventually, but not everybody all at once. Jesus went first. Speaking of logic, somebody has to go second in that case. Why not his Mum?

And yet, on information and belief, Dr Habermas does not teach the bodily Ressurrection and Assumption of Mary of Nazareth. Nor does he teach the variant allowed by Paul, that some may be changed without tasting death. That would be a nice present for anyone's Mother.

Seriously, AC, if it was within your power to spare your mother from death, or failing that, to see to it that she suffered no lasting ill effects from a final distress, wouldn't you do it? For your mother? And if she then needed a place to stay, and you had a really big house available, with many apartments, wouldn't you let her have one? This is your mother we're talking about.

If you answered "no," then would you be willing to tell your mother that, face to face? Or better yet, would you demonstrate to her your power to do it, and then withhold it from her when she needed it?

Assuming you answer "yes," that you'd help your Mom, and assuming Jesus didn't help his Mom, then what are you saying? That you're a better son than Jesus? I'd do it for my Mom. Am I a better son than Jesus?

So, here's how logic works. If Dr Habermas allows that a rational person may believe that Mary wasn't bodily transformed and assumed into Heaven, then he must allow that a rational person may believe that Jesus wasn't, either. It is his business that he disagrees personally, for whatever reasons, but he cannot object logically to anyone reaching similar conclusions about similar uncertain questions, based on similar evidence.

Edited by eight bits, 17 April 2013 - 07:25 AM.

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#19    Zaphod222

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:41 AM

View Postredhen, on 14 April 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

"Best Objection against Jesus' Resurrection?"

Dead people don't usually come back to life.

LOL, yeah.

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#20    Artaxerxes

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 09:17 PM

Jesus the Near Death Experiencer and Christianity the near death experience religion:

I'm thinking Jesus was simply a little Jewish Rabbi that had a very deep and profound near death experience while up on that cross and that the New Testament in its essence is basically a highly embellished, added onto, and out of sequence near death experience story and Christianity at its very heart a near death experience religion.  

They were in a hurry to get the body down from the cross because they were afraid of angering the Jews because they didn't like bodies left up on the cross over the Sabbath.  They were afraid the Jews would riot so they wanted to hurry up and get the body down.  When that Roman soldier stuck his spear in the side of Jesus he pierced the pericardium which is the sac surrounding the heart and it relieved the pressure which was keeping Jesus heart from beating and then when they cut the body down from the cross, because they were in a hurry, they let the body flop on the ground and the resulting "whomp" restarted the heart and it was beating very slowly so Jesus was in a coma.  

They turned the body over to the women and they probably cleaned it and bound the wounds and then wrapped it in linen and then they laid it in that cool dark tomb (in the spring time in Jerusalem) and he laid there in a coma for three days.  
After three days in a coma Jesus woke up and at some point in his ordeal, probably while he was up on the cross, he had a very deep and profound near death experience.  No one in the first Century had ever seen anyone who had had been crucified on a cross live to tell about it.  For them it was a miracle.  So he came back and started preaching about what the Kingdom of God was like and he prayed in the garden that his followers would experience the oneness and connectedness with God that he had experienced.  

The church is supposed to be a respite from the world, or a little piece of heaven here on Earth.   That was Jesus original intention,  that his followers would know the love and light and connectedness with each other that he had experienced while on the other side.

Christianity is a matrix or mandela of all the religions that were common or around during the First century.   Jesus's near death experience  picked up through storytelling all the elements of Mithra-ism, Isis and Osiris worship, Judaism, Greek & Roman Mythology, the worship of Horus.     It's a mish-mash of a lot of different religions.


#21    Mr Walker

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 11:46 AM

View Postredhen, on 14 April 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

"Best Objection against Jesus' Resurrection?"

Dead people don't usually come back to life.

LOL. well that is the point, rather. It illustrates the unusuality of christ. If he did not come back to life in the story, we would not have either christianity or its basic motivational tenets( beyond christs template as to how to live a life on earth.)

If humans normally came back to life, the story would lose all its impact. Or would it?  Within  one lifetime from today humans will have the abilty to be resurrected by science from physical and mental death. Ie death of body and soul. (Some scientists argue that "immortals" already walk among us because there are young people today who will live potentially for thousands of years) But a miracle is a different kettle of fish to science, in most people's minds.

To me they are one and the same. (Clarke's second law) but humans ATTRIBUTE "divine' cause to miracles, and then act upon that attribution.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#22    Mr Walker

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 11:59 AM

View Posteight bits, on 17 April 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

AquilaChrysaetos



Really? But surely Dr Habermas accepts that miracles are possible. There is no tomb of Mary except empty ones (just as there are plural candidates for Jesus' tomb). She has been sighted thousands of times, or otherwise perceived and interacted with by living people. On one occasion, in modern times, tens of thousands of people at once are reported to have watched her work an astronomical miracle in broad daylight.

Even scripturally, Paul describes Jesus as the first fruits of a general resurrection event; in which everybody will participate eventually, but not everybody all at once. Jesus went first. Speaking of logic, somebody has to go second in that case. Why not his Mum?

And yet, on information and belief, Dr Habermas does not teach the bodily Ressurrection and Assumption of Mary of Nazareth. Nor does he teach the variant allowed by Paul, that some may be changed without tasting death. That would be a nice present for anyone's Mother.

Seriously, AC, if it was within your power to spare your mother from death, or failing that, to see to it that she suffered no lasting ill effects from a final distress, wouldn't you do it? For your mother? And if she then needed a place to stay, and you had a really big house available, with many apartments, wouldn't you let her have one? This is your mother we're talking about.

If you answered "no," then would you be willing to tell your mother that, face to face? Or better yet, would you demonstrate to her your power to do it, and then withhold it from her when she needed it?

Assuming you answer "yes," that you'd help your Mom, and assuming Jesus didn't help his Mom, then what are you saying? That you're a better son than Jesus? I'd do it for my Mom. Am I a better son than Jesus?

So, here's how logic works. If Dr Habermas allows that a rational person may believe that Mary wasn't bodily transformed and assumed into Heaven, then he must allow that a rational person may believe that Jesus wasn't, either. It is his business that he disagrees personally, for whatever reasons, but he cannot object logically to anyone reaching similar conclusions about similar uncertain questions, based on similar evidence.
Maybe im missing something but in the bible story christ was originally divine/god; mary was not. Christ simply returned to heaven from a sojourn on earth of 30 years  and will indeed come in physical form again in the future. Again from the biblical story.

All other humans  according to the bible,( rather than catholic theology/interpretation) will not enter heaven until the judgement days. In this context, Mary, like you or I, will be judged (in biblical theological terms) and will probably be found suited to go to heaven until resettled on the new earth. So in the actual biblical context/story line, christ would know that mary would eventually go to heaven, and then on to the new earth after being "asleep" for  however long it takes for the judgement days to roll around.

Biblically  ALL humans die,  but those who believe in christ will be resurrected. One assumes mary, of all people, had a belief in her son This is demonstrated by her role in the gospels. Just as a story the bible makes contextual sense as long as you actaully read it all and follow it as a story. In tha story christ's response to his  human birth mother,  (as it is to every human being) is both logical and humane. Purely biblically, christ was god, mary was human, what was possible for one was NOT possible for the other. For humans a different process and sequence is used, in the biblical storyline.

I might be wrong, but I dont think there is any biblical evidence for, or refernce to, mary  being taken up to heaven while alive.  Thus, biblically, the presumption is that she died like all the rest of her family.

Of course christians can (and do) believe many variations. Personally, while not a bible believer/literalist, i think that one should stick to it and its content, if one wants to be a biblically based christian.

It makes things a lot more logical and coherent than going off on theological tangents, and church/individual based additions or alterations to the bible story.

Ps the issue of ones mother is not that simple. My mum is 90 and in good mental and physical health, if a little frail. She has many grand children and great grandchildren, Is well embedded in her community and socially active with family and groups. Now suppose i am offered two choices; to allow her to live out her life and to die naturally with all that entails including perhaps falls strokes and some suffering, but then be ressurected some time in the future OR to  prevent her natural death and aging, but thereby prevent her resurrection and transformation into an eternal being.

Which is the better course? Well it depends on your beliefs doesn't it? Does one first have to die to be transformed into that eternal being? Perhaps not, as in the final days those saved still alive on earth will be taken up to heaven. But for all other humans,  according to the bible.  they sleep until the judgement days.

Edited by Mr Walker, 18 April 2013 - 12:22 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#23    redhen

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 12:29 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 18 April 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

LOL. well that is the point, rather. It illustrates the unusuality of christ.

So the more outlandish the claim, the more we should put stock in it?

Quote

If he did not come back to life in the story, we would not have either christianity or its basic motivational tenets( beyond christs template as to how to live a life on earth.)

Why? Jesus came to be a scapegoat. He died and thus took on the sins of the world. Why is a bodily resurrection theologically necessary?

Quote

If humans normally came back to life, the story would lose all its impact. Or would it?  Within  one lifetime from today humans will have the abilty to be resurrected by science from physical and mental death. Ie death of body and soul. (Some scientists argue that "immortals" already walk among us because there are young people today who will live potentially for thousands of years) But a miracle is a different kettle of fish to science, in most people's minds.

To me they are one and the same. (Clarke's second law) but humans ATTRIBUTE "divine' cause to miracles, and then act upon that attribution.

You mean Clarke's 3rd law? "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

So you're saying it could have been extraterrestrial aliens?


#24    redhen

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 12:35 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 18 April 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

All other humans  according to the bible,( rather than catholic theology/interpretation) will not enter heaven until the judgement days.

That's a limited view. The Hebrews taught that certain righteous heroes would enter heaven.

Quote

I might be wrong, but I dont think there is any biblical evidence for, or refernce to, mary  being taken up to heaven while alive.  Thus, biblically, the presumption is that she died like all the rest of her family.

Heresy!

Quote

Of course christians can (and do) believe many variations. Personally, while not a bible believer/literalist, i think that one should stick to it and its content, if one wants to be a biblically based christian.

What or who is your authority for this claim?


#25    eight bits

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 12:42 PM

Mr W

That is all, of course, well and good.

The principal issue before us, however, is to evaluate Dr Habermas' thinking..He urges us to look upon the Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus as things that happened in history, and for which there is, in his view, sufficient evidence to support a confident belief that they actually occurred.

I share your impression that Dr Habermas believes that Jesus is God. It is conceivable that Dr Habermas would argue that gods have prerogatives that ordinary human beings do not. That, however, isn't a historical assertion, and is irrelevant to whether or not the events occurred.

The hypothesis that Mary of Nazareth ascended to heaven, either after being raised from death or avoiding death altogether, does not depend on her being a goddess, but rather that Jesus, or the God who raised Jesus, would and did also raise Mary. We are told that Jesus did raise somebody else he loved, Lazarus of Bethany, and so there really is no question that if Jesus could be raised, then so could others, too. I would add that Paul expected that others would soon be raised bodily; Jesus' distinction for Paul is that Jesus rose first.

Why wouldn't Mary be second? If not her, then somebody would be, so why not her?

All of which clears the way for us to apply the approach that Dr Habermas proposes for the Ressurection and Ascension of Jesus to the Dormition and Ascension of Mary. I find it perplexing that I reach the same conclusion for both, while Dr Habermas apparently reaches different conclusions for each.

At least one of us, it would seem, is doing it wrong.

Edited by eight bits, 18 April 2013 - 12:53 PM.

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#26    Mr Walker

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 12:59 PM

View Postredhen, on 18 April 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

So the more outlandish the claim, the more we should put stock in it?



Why? Jesus came to be a scapegoat. He died and thus took on the sins of the world. Why is a bodily resurrection theologically necessary?



You mean Clarke's 3rd law? "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

So you're saying it could have been extraterrestrial aliens?
No the more "outlandish" the claim the more power and resonance it has. The mundane holds little interest or attraction for any of us, hence the lack of a forum entitled "Explained Mysteries"


Because while part of christ's role in christian theology is as a teacher, mentor, and template for how a human should live their life on earth, another part is to model  the  ultimate potential for humanity. Ie christ's resurrection is also a template for later human ressurection. If we are one with christ then, in christian theology, we too have a physical resurrection and immortal life, and are placed on the new earth;  as we were once in eden, and in the same relationship with god as existed before the fall.

The hope and promise of this physical resurrection is the theological underrinning for many  human beings acceptance of christianity,  and the  historical reason for the "universal" appeal of christianity to human beings. Although I live in the knowledge that heaven (and god) already exists, in me on earth, I can see its attraction to others to have immortal life and physical resurrection.

Yes I thought it was his second law once upon a time but i might be mistaken.

Of course,  if real and physical, god is an extra terrestrial alien, by definition (and in my experience, by nature) There exist no such things as the paranormal, supernatural or miraculous. ALL these are physical and real occurences beyond our present technology and understanding (even if in some cases only just so) And so we see them as miracles or magic

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#27    Mr Walker

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 01:18 PM

View Postredhen, on 18 April 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

That's a limited view. The Hebrews taught that certain righteous heroes would enter heaven.



Heresy!



What or who is your authority for this claim?

The hebrews dont accept the new testament addendum to the bible.

Like i said there is no biblical  authority or evidence  for this view/belief. It is based on the infallibilty of catholic dogma, a non biblical principle in itself. Actually it is the catholic view which is biblically heretical The catholics are quite clear on this. They hold the right to interpet and alter the bible as they wish throughthe authority of the pope. This is also their justification for changing the sabbath to the first day of the week.

No one else has to share that view, and it is not biblical.

I said "I think", ergo I need no justification, but i offer logic. If the bible is the book of christians then basically a christian should follow it and not church based dogma.

One does not need a church to be a christian but one can't be a christian without reading and understanding the bible because christianity is the basis of a persona relationship with god and to have such a relaitonship one must comprehend how it is meant to be.

The bible came first and churches interpret it, but any human can understand, study and follow the bible, without a priest or a church telling them how to do it. It is like any book in this regard. Imagine reading a cook book and then just not folowing the recipes or changing them to suit your taste. Or an instruction book on how to build a model aeroplane then just ignoring the instructions.

As an example, my wife reads and studies the bible each day, by herself  for an hour or so. She reads the bible right through once every year and examines its words meanings etc. via many study guides, concordances and comparisons between biblical texts and versions. Then she lives by what it says as she understands it.

You dont need a church to tell you what to do, or how to interpet the bible, its all there for you to discover, if that is what you want and if you want to find the true nature of the bible for yourself, rather than someone else's opinion of it..

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#28    redhen

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 01:30 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 18 April 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

No the more "outlandish" the claim the more power and resonance it has.

Hmm, I suppose that's why so many people are captivated by the idea of a teapot orbiting around the sun.

Quote

Because while part of christ's role in christian theology is as a teacher, mentor, and template for how a human should live their life on earth, another part is to model  the  ultimate potential for humanity. Ie christ's resurrection is also a template for later human ressurection. If we are one with christ then, in christian theology, we too have a physical resurrection and immortal life, and are placed on the new earth;  as we were once in eden, and in the same relationship with god as existed before the fall.

These seem like secondary considerations. The whole justification for the crucifixion is that by this vicarious sacrifice, human original sin would be wiped out.  If I'm wrong, hopefuly someone here will enlighten me.

Quote

The hope and promise of this physical resurrection is the theological underrinning for many  human beings acceptance of christianity,  and the  historical reason for the "universal" appeal of christianity to human beings. Although I live in the knowledge that heaven (and god) already exists, in me on earth, I can see its attraction to others to have immortal life and physical resurrection.

Heaven and hell as they appear in the NT are absent in the OT.

Quote

Of course,  if real and physical, god is an extra terrestrial alien, by definition (and in my experience, by nature) There exist no such things as the paranormal, supernatural or miraculous. ALL these are physical and real occurences beyond our present technology and understanding (even if in some cases only just so) And so we see them as miracles or magic

Interesting. But whether Jesus was resurrected by a deity or a space alien, the burden of proof lies with those making the claim. And from where I sit, there are much more plausible explanations for this proposition.


#29    Mr Walker

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 01:33 PM

View Posteight bits, on 18 April 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Mr W

That is all, of course, well and good.

The principal issue before us, however, is to evaluate Dr Habermas' thinking..He urges us to look upon the Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus as things that happened in history, and for which there is, in his view, sufficient evidence to support a confident belief that they actually occurred.

I share your impression that Dr Habermas believes that Jesus is God. It is conceivable that Dr Habermas would argue that gods have prerogatives that ordinary human beings do not. That, however, isn't a historical assertion, and is irrelevant to whether or not the events occurred.

The hypothesis that Mary of Nazareth ascended to heaven, either after being raised from death or avoiding death altogether, does not depend on her being a goddess, but rather that Jesus, or the God who raised Jesus, would and did also raise Mary. We are told that Jesus did raise somebody else he loved, Lazarus of Bethany, and so there really is no question that if Jesus could be raised, then so could others, too. I would add that Paul expected that others would soon be raised bodily; Jesus' distinction for Paul is that Jesus rose first.

Why wouldn't Mary be second? If not her, then somebody would be, so why not her?

All of which clears the way for us to apply the approach that Dr Habermas proposes for the Ressurection and Ascension of Jesus to the Dormition and Ascension of Mary. I find it perplexing that I reach the same conclusion for both, while Dr Habermas apparently reaches different conclusions for each.

At least one of us, it would seem, is doing it wrong.

There is no biblical evidence that christ raised mary. While there is, within the story, evidence that he raised lazarus, lazarus neither had immortal life nor a new transformed body. ( I might be wrong about this) Christ simply raised lazarus from the dead but not permanently. (And christ was physically present in his role as god as man when he did this) Given that lazarus is not with us now, (despite the legend of the wandering jew) one might assume he is deceased.

I think that there are two very different and clear cut cases.Christ died as a man and was reborn as a god. When mary is reborn it wil be as a woman not a god. No where in the bible  does  god become a quad rather than a trinity :innocent:  and no where is ther a suggestion that  the mother of god as a man had such powers as those attributed to her by catholics.

Part of this is my distrust of much catholic dogama which has evolved over the centuries, but it is more that, as a simple reader of the bible and one who seeks to understand its context and purpose, the physicl transformation and taking to heaven of mary just does not fit the story which exists within the bible. It is apparently an addition of the church,  as is the very concept of hell and eternal punishment, or even that people go to heaven or hell when they die. That is just NOT what the bible actually says, in its own words.

The conflict between official catholic dogma and the very words of the bible forced the church to ban lay possession of bibles in some countres for many years, so that ordinary people would not be "misled" by its words. It also triggered the reformation  and lead to a considerable discrepancy between the words found in catholic bibles and those of non catholics.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#30    redhen

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 01:36 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 18 April 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

I said "I think", ergo I need no justification, but i offer logic. If the bible is the book of christians then basically a christian should follow it and not church based dogma.

Thanks for clarifying that.

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You dont need a church to tell you what to do, or how to interpet the bible, its all there for you to discover, if that is what you want and if you want to find the true nature of the bible for yourself, rather than someone else's opinion of it..

Yes, I pointed out the Assumption of Mary just to show that there are many varied interpretations and extra-biblical addendums. Good for you for not blindly following a certain set of precepts. May all religious members be so discerning.





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