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Bush knowingly ordered torture


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#46    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 01:37 PM

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RavenHawk, we could spend a long time discussing your irrational hatred of anything other than rabid capitalism, but I think we could all agree that its boring keeping discussing the shortcomings of your beliefs.

Br Cornelius

And yet your beliefs are flawless? ROFL :w00t:


#47    Babe Ruth

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 02:00 PM

View PostHarte, on 22 April 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

"Moral?"

Since when has any government been able to claim that trait?

Harte

As far as the claim being truthful, it has probably never been able to make the claim.

But it does make the claim all the time, especially in these last several years.  Don't you know we were helping the Iraqis when we invaded their country and destroyed its infrastructure?  We were their salvation when we got rid of Saddam.

By waging our Global War On Terror, we are beneficent and just and moral for the entire world.  Have you not been paying attention?  The US is the agent of Good, and we will make that claim directly and indirectly pretty much anytime the government issues a press release.


#48    Babe Ruth

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 02:04 PM

Ryinrea

He has not been arrested for war crimes because the federal government, all 3 branches, are utterly corrupt and in contempt of the rule of law.

True, he was convicted in absentia in Malaysia, and is wanted for questioning in some other countries around the world, but here in the Land Of the Free and Home of the Brave, he is home free.


#49    Harte

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 02:20 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 22 April 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

By waging our Global War On Terror, we are beneficent and just and moral for the entire world.  Have you not been paying attention?  The US is the agent of Good, and we will make that claim directly and indirectly pretty much anytime the government issues a press release.

You seem to me to be quite confused.

The U.S., like any other political state, takes care of its own interests.  Nothing more.

It is in our interest to have a stable Middle East.  It is sometimes just not in our power to assure this sort of stability.

The mistake most states make is the inability to recognize the above fact.

Harte

If we claim to be "moral," what happened to Somalia, etc.?

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#50    RavenHawk

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:00 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 20 April 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

RavenHawk, we could spend a long time discussing
We have.  But you still havenít shown any indication that youíve understood.

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your irrational hatred of anything other than rabid capitalism,
No, it is very rational and logical.  It is rabid hatred, complete abhorrence of anything other than capitalism.  The same hate that our Founding Fathers had.  They warned us to keep Socialism out of our system.  And today, we are failing them.  Iíll include a key quote from my reply that obviously went over your head.  ĒNo, I do not advocate free markets without constraints.  I advocate free markets without government infringement.Ē  We all know you donít understand that, thatís ok.

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but I think we could all agree that its boring keeping discussing the shortcomings of your beliefs.
Itís only boring to you because you have no counter to what Iíve stated, because it is over your head.  I can never seem to get an intelligent conversation with you.  Youíre mindset prevents you from seeing the light.  As BR said: ďAnd yet your beliefs are flawless?Ē  Socialism only has excuses.  You still refuse to answer a very simple question.  Simply because it would shatter your foundation.

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#51    Babe Ruth

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 07:30 PM

View PostHarte, on 22 April 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

You seem to me to be quite confused.

The U.S., like any other political state, takes care of its own interests.  Nothing more.

It is in our interest to have a stable Middle East.  It is sometimes just not in our power to assure this sort of stability.

The mistake most states make is the inability to recognize the above fact.

Harte

If we claim to be "moral," what happened to Somalia, etc.?

I'm not really confused.  Probably I just have different values than you do?

Disappointed, might be a good way to describe me, disappointed that my government has become such a global force for evil and destruction.  Disappointed that my paltry contribution to the federal treasury is used to fund illegal wars and immoral policy.

I recognize the right and duty of the state to look out for its own, but I do not acknowledge that military aggression and assaults against our own Constitution are legitimate ways to look out for one's own.


#52    AsteroidX

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 07:46 PM

This was not an eye opener. Ever since water boarding came to light and the incident at Abu-Grab prison in Iraq everyones known Government sanctioned torture has been the norm.


#53    Br Cornelius

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 07:56 PM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 22 April 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

And yet your beliefs are flawless? ROFL :w00t:
I am a pragmatist - whatever works. Its not founded on an immoveable ideology.
I even admit that my understanding is partial and evolving. Ravenhawk starts off from the belief that anything which he disagrees with is socialist - including me.

Maybe now you can spot the difference between RavenHawks dogma and the things I say. Probably not.

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#54    Harte

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 08:18 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 22 April 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

I'm not really confused.  Probably I just have different values than you do?

Disappointed, might be a good way to describe me, disappointed that my government has become such a global force for evil and destruction.  Disappointed that my paltry contribution to the federal treasury is used to fund illegal wars and immoral policy.
"Has become?"

It's never been any different.  No governement has since the dawn of civilization.

View PostBabe Ruth, on 22 April 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

I recognize the right and duty of the state to look out for its own, but I do not acknowledge that military aggression and assaults against our own Constitution are legitimate ways to look out for one's own.

Assaults on the constitution?  You appear to have the vapors.
Here are some more assaults on the constitution:

Alien and sedition act.
Anti trust acts
Establishment of the Income Tax
Legalized abortion

I'm out of time and leaving work now, or I could give you twenty more.

So far, the constitution has survived.

Harte


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#55    Harte

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:20 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 22 April 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

View PostBabe Ruth, on 22 April 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

I'm not really confused.  Probably I just have different values than you do?
More likely, you're just younger and less cynical.
Note that, if I ran the world, it would be different (I would hope.)

Disappointed, might be a good way to describe me, disappointed that my government has become such a global force for evil and destruction.  Disappointed that my paltry contribution to the federal treasury is used to fund illegal wars and immoral policy.
I got over that disappointment long ago.

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#56    Babe Ruth

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:01 PM

I guess that's another difference between us--I'm still disappointed.  I'm too much an idealist, I guess.

You make many good points in your posts above, and I agree with several.

As for "has become", I guess my idealist side clings to the spirit that drove the Nuremberg Trials.  And very much to the spirit of Ike's Farewell Address.  There was a time when we were the good guys.  No, we were never perfect, simply because we are human.  But we had principles and those principles fairly well drove government.  After Ellsberg, for example, we actually did investigate and prosecute much of the mischief that led us to Vietnam and what we did there.  After Manning, rather a divergent path.  After ABu Ghraib, nothing but a few lowly enlisted men were punished.

Yes, we could both go on and on.

You're certainly right about the Alien & Sedition Acts.

But recognizing our imperfections is really not the same as criticizing poor governance or blandly accepting poor governance, or worse yet, excusing and defending illegal governance.


#57    RavenHawk

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:27 PM

View PostRyinrea, on 22 April 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

I am an American and have been screaming at the top of my lungs they should be brought to justice for war crimes.
I just have to laugh at this.  It is so indicative of a lack of awareness.  This is not meant as an insult, just an observation.  Do you really know the history of torture?  When has it never been used in warfare?  In essence Bush approved water-boarding on one or two prisoners.  At the end of the day, these men would be able to see their families again.  What about Dan Pearl or the four men (Helveston, Zovko, Batalona, Teague) hung on a bridge in Fallujah or a myriad of other incidents?  These men will never see their loved ones again.  Why arenít you screaming at the top of your lungs for them?

Torture is a part of war.  In some instances, it is very distasteful to some.  And some forms of torture are very effective while others are not.  If you are a field commander and you need to know information that will save your men and you have a prisoner that may know something, youíre going to do everything possible to pry that info out of that prisoner, even though at a different time, it would be considered extreme cruelty.  Like I have said before, the only rule in war is to win.  You canít legislate war or you risk losing.  Now there are considerations that can occur in war but those are usually established on the battlefield.  For instance, not mistreating prisoners because that will open up the other side to do the same.  Itís more of an understanding than anything else.  But in the case of Dan Pearl, the other side has already crossed the line.  We are under no obligation to observe such niceties; neither does it change our moral fabric to use torture.

So the bottom line is that your self-righteousness is pompous and disingenuous.  Youíre brainwashed by Hollywood that the good guys always wear white hats.  Thatís simply not the case.

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I also agree that were not at Hitler level yet.
This is something else that is laughable.  You want to make a comparison between Hitler and Bush because of Bushís approval of limited non lethal EI, yet here comes Obama who is so blatant in his Hitleresque usurpation of the Constitution.  Unbelievable!  Hitler wasnít only a monster because of the Final Solution but for pulling the wool over the eyes of the German people which then allowed him to grab power and press his agenda unhindered, which included the Final Solution.  It all began from little changes (here and there) to their society deemed beneficial to societyís safety.  It was the State that determined what was good for you.

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I also would  put Raven Hawk on my ignore list too since he seems to not have anything to say but insults and talking points.
I just callíem as I seeíem.  If you think that is insulting then maybe you should go home and come back when you mature.  Donít be so shallow to threaten to put me on ignore, do so or do not.  We donít know who the Hell the other is.  All I can tell from your replies is that you are naÔve.  I personally never do put anyone on ignore because I consider it childish.  If you donít think I have anything to say, you just havenít been listening.  What I say usually sours the koolaid others quaff.  Besides, if you put me on ignore, youíll never know what I say about you.

I never liked the term ďTalking PointsĒ.  I find that itself is a talking point.  Points are points.  They are either right or wrong.  I have supported my points very well and today the only retorts aimed at me are misdirection.  To me that confirms that my points are correct and the arguments against them are feeble.

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Oh I am not socked at all that he knowingly did torture on people. He was Hypocritical, when it came to torture calling it special integrations.  
Thatís just the art of Statesmanship.  Obama has been far smoother than Bush or even Clinton.  Obama has people eagerly bending over to grab their ankles.  And many still donít realize it.

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Why has he not been arrested for war crimes yet? .
Maybe because he hasnít committed war crimes.  You do realize that the water-boarding and the Abu Ghraib photos amount to nothing more than college fraternity initiation?  When I was a private, I committed a very minor infraction while on firewatch.  The NCOís had a field day with me.  They had me in a position that has since then been known as a Brazilian.  It was a means to instill discipline, I understood that and I knew that it wasnít personal.  And I wasnít the only one.  That is just the way things are.  When we go through scuba or jump school and you get your pin, they pin it to your chest, literally and everyone lines up to take their turn to help secure it.  They each pound it in a little deeper.  That is far more painful that anything you saw at Abu Ghraib.  Believe me, I know.

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#58    RavenHawk

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:50 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 22 April 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

I am a pragmatist - whatever works.
Just blow with the wind, eh?  Thatís how Socialism takes over.

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Its not founded on an immoveable ideology.
Thatís called principle.  It is what the Constitution is based on.  Of course it is immoveable ideology.  There has to be something to anchor us or we will end up like you blowing in the wind like underwear on the line.  The Constitution must remain immoveable so that we may remain free.  I doubt you understand that.

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I even admit that my understanding is partial and evolving.
As if Iíve never had a period in my life that wasnít evolving.  The world just canít wait for you to reach an epiphany.  I donít understand everything either but I trust the intent of the Founding Fathers.  Their insight was flawless.

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Ravenhawk starts off from the belief that anything which he disagrees with is socialist - including me.
Itís not what I disagree with.  It is what our Founding Fathers warned us about.

I must admit that I like your avatar, but if youíre not that cross between Caesar/Che then you should think about changing it.  BTW, Caesar was not anti establishment.  He was the establishment.  Revolutionaries are not all socialists.  We had several (including ancestors of mine) about 240 years ago that were not Socialist.  They found the wisdom to escape the trap.

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Maybe now you can spot the difference between RavenHawks dogma and the things I say. Probably not.
I think it is quite clear.  My dogma is the US Constitution.

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#59    Br Cornelius

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:59 PM

Your funny Ravenhawk, but I doubt you realise how funny :yes:


All of the worst tyrants have been driven by immovable ideologies - even the socialist one's - you should remember that when you place ideology over compromise and seeking what actually works :tu:

Certainty is no substitute for been right.



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Edited by Br Cornelius, 23 April 2013 - 06:01 PM.

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#60    Harte

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:23 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 23 April 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

Certainty is no substitute for been right.

Br Cornelius

Did you mean "left?"

LOL

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