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Bush knowingly ordered torture


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#76    RavenHawk

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 06:28 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 25 April 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Ravenhawk by abusing objective descriptive terms you have backed yourself into a ghetto where no-one will understand you because you do not share the same language as everyone else.
Words have meanings for a reason - to aid in conversation and understanding.
Sigh!  Iím not abusing ďobjective descriptive termsĒ.  Iím challenging your set- in-stone dogma; trying to bring you in from out of the wind.  And you are doing everything to fight it.  Yes, words have meaning.  So do sentences and paragraphs.  When are you your going to start understanding?  Iíve made my stance very clear but you are out of your comfort zone because I am forcing you to confront the failings of your dogma.  Iíve taken a myriad of definitions and boiled them down to *black & white* and that undercuts your ability to use the differences in order to sidetrack and defend Socialism.

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You should attempt to remember this when you go off on one of your rants and no one follows you down your rabbit hole :tu:
Still doing your best to distract from the argument.  Actually, I would guess that people are just annoyed at this because they already know how useless it is to get any kind of thought in that brain housing group of yours.  I donít mind beating my head against a wall, that is what I do.  It allows me to put my thoughts down.  Iím not here to abide by your set of grammar rules.  But even for me trying to plant a new thought in your head is getting boring.  I realize that if your information doesnít come from the right sources, it just doesnít exist.

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#77    regeneratia

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 06:40 PM

Recently there has been a serious PR campaign in bought mainstream media to present Jr. in good light. But it seems the public will not have it. Jr.'s legacy will be that of squandering a surplus, recessions, neglect, torture, clinically insanely hearing voices, 9-11 happening on his watch despite a myriad of warnings,  two expensive and useless and senseless wars, and that he took the USA one hades of an alcoholic joyride.

Bush was and is clinically insane. He was also still drinking while he was in the Oval Office.

Just reminding you how Bush used to PAY reporters to present the story he wants to circulate. He had been caught at it. Stands to reasons this new PR campaign in mainstream media for Jr. is also being purchased.

Edited by regeneratia, 29 April 2013 - 06:47 PM.

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#78    Br Cornelius

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 07:17 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 29 April 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Sigh!  I'm not abusing "objective descriptive terms".  I'm challenging your set- in-stone dogma; trying to bring you in from out of the wind.  And you are doing everything to fight it.  Yes, words have meaning.  So do sentences and paragraphs.  When are you your going to start understanding?  I've made my stance very clear but you are out of your comfort zone because I am forcing you to confront the failings of your dogma.  I've taken a myriad of definitions and boiled them down to *black & white* and that undercuts your ability to use the differences in order to sidetrack and defend Socialism.


Still doing your best to distract from the argument.  Actually, I would guess that people are just annoyed at this because they already know how useless it is to get any kind of thought in that brain housing group of yours.  I don't mind beating my head against a wall, that is what I do.  It allows me to put my thoughts down.  I'm not here to abide by your set of grammar rules.  But even for me trying to plant a new thought in your head is getting boring.  I realize that if your information doesn't come from the right sources, it just doesn't exist.

Let me put this simply - you have dogma and a one size fits all solution to all problems. I don't need to brought "into the light" I fully understand where you are coming from. As you said yourself you had an epiphany of understanding and now you have the key to solving all problems. Forgive me if I fail to share your enthusiasms because I have had a long slow evolution of understanding which is just a tad more subtle than your smash and grab rhetoric.

I am resisting the loud outbursts of someone who doesn't even know how to formulate his concepts into a dialectic which it is possible to have a conversation with any sense of progress towards a resolution - because you have your resolution - and your not for turning.

Your argument is that NeoLiberal free markets work, when all the evidence says they do not, every place which has failed to achieve your NeoLiberal nirvana has done so because it has succumbed to the siren call of socialism. Everything which is not NeoLiberalism is socialism. A simple religious dialetic of easily resolvable black and white, good and evil with you as the great free market palladin with the magic wand to make everything better - if they just followed your perfect prescription.  You see its such a simple concept that I could frame it in two single sentence's. There is nothing subtle or deep about your understanding.

I turn my back on your childish world view and get on with living in the real world.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 29 April 2013 - 07:24 PM.

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#79    Babe Ruth

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 07:40 PM

RavenHawk

Your statement "Well, yes and no" is rather confusing, isn't it.  Torture may indeed be reality because of the Lucifer Effect that Zimbardo discovered, but assuming that laws mean what they say, it is illegal.

Now I know that Yoo and Bush & Co successfully corrupted the language and the thought process with their use of Enhanced Interrogation Techniques, and that certain young troops were tricked into the Lucifer Effect by way of Bush's sophistry, and maybe you are one of those young troops, but some of us old farts knew that Bush was pushing sophistry then, and we still know it today.  Sometimes, however rarely, things are black or white.  Assaulting another person, whether by rape or by torture, is illegal, no matter what a politician might say.

Some of us do not allow a politician to define our moral standards.  I suppose some do, and perhaps you are one?

Is there such a thing as a noble war?  Is it possible to be fighting for an objectively defined good?  Or are subjective interpretations the heart of the legislative effort?  That is, is it possible in a noble war for one side to be barbaric while the other is honorable?  Or must both be barbarians?

It sounds like you are trying to rationalize being barbaric to me, as you are trying in your own mind to rationalize assault in the form of torture.

Should we really have any laws at all, since we are warlike?  After all, once the war begins, there is no more right or wrong, eh?


#80    RavenHawk

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:56 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 29 April 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

Let me put this simply - you have dogma and a one size fits all solution to all problems.
Iím not even talking about having one solution to all problems.  Thatís insane but I guess you donít understand that.  I do know what wonít work.  I know enslavement when I see it no matter what you call it.

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I don't need to brought "into the light"
Well, thatís partially true.  You wonít come into the light until you are ready if ever.

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I fully understand where you are coming from.
No you really donít.  If your reply here is any indication of your full understanding then you are clueless.

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As you said yourself you had an epiphany of understanding and now you have the key to solving all problems.
No thatís not what I said.  This just shows that you really donít understand what I said.  Below is the short exchange:

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I even admit that my understanding is partial and evolving.
As if Iíve never had a period in my life that wasnít evolving.  The world just canít wait for you to reach an epiphany.  I donít understand everything either but I trust the intent of the Founding Fathers.  Their insight was flawless.

To be fair, I can see where that could be implied but the focus was on you.  And it still remains waiting for you for that light bulb to go off.  And again, I donít have the solution to all problems.  Never claimed I did, ever!  But I do know what wonít work because I trust the wisdom of our Founding Fathers.  I understand their intent.

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Forgive me if I fail to share your enthusiasms because I have had a long slow evolution of understanding which is just a tad more subtle than your smash and grab rhetoric.
I love the barrage of adjectives you are throwing out to try to sidetrack my statements.  That seems to be the bulk of your retort.  I wouldnít call the understanding of our Founding Fathers as *smash and grab*.  The FF did all the leg work, all you need to do is read and understand.  Just about any time I look at different writings from any of them, I can see that they thought it through.  Much of what they came up with still applies today.  They may not have had all the answers but they knew what wouldnít work.  They gave us a government that was as far away from Socialism as possible for a reason.

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I am resisting the loud outbursts of someone who doesn't even know how to formulate his concepts into a dialectic which it is possible to have a conversation with any sense of progress towards a resolution - because you have your resolution - and your not for turning.
There you go again with the adjectives.  If Iíve been loud then you have been deaf.  Iíve done pretty much everything but stand on my head to establish my points (and I think Iíve done a really good job), yet at every turn you fight and refuse to understand the way I present it only because I donít allow you any room to squirm.  Socialism is just a means to control the people and that is totally unacceptable.  As Iíve said many times there is no compromising with Socialism.  It is a ďgreedy algorithmĒ (for lack of a better term).  It is a virus that needs to be placed in check and then eradicated.

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Your argument is that NeoLiberal free markets work, when all the evidence says they do not, every place which has failed to achieve your NeoLiberal nirvana has done so because it has succumbed to the siren call of socialism.
I believe in a private free market free of government involvement (ok - laissez-faire).  I thought that was clear?  Yes, there are inherent problems with this but they are far better than the government controlling the markets.  Ultimately, the government doesnít help the people as much as it helps itself.  Let the people figure it out.

We have this idea of Separation of Church and State.  We should also have a Separation of Market and State.  Yes, I realize that you canít have any economic system totally free of government infringement (some/very little is necessary) but the government should be finding ways to empower the consumer through education and awareness rather than regulation.

Iíve always thought that the evidence shows that free markets do work.  Any market system in history has worked at least for a time.  The staying power is dependent on how much is controlled by the people or the government.  In the places that have failed, it has been because Socialism has crept into the system causing corruption.  Places like Sweden, Ireland (I believe), and China are stepping away from Socialism, at least partially but that may not be enough.  Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, and Cypress are on the verge of collapse.  Even the French government is beginning to second guess Hollandeís 75% income tax.

Socialism destroys any system it mixes with (and you seem to agree with that).  As you say is why they succumb to the siren call.  That is probably a good description of Socialism and why it must be completely exercised.  The false promise of its call draws men to their doom.  On the other hand, the free market is chaotic (there is no nirvana to it).  Thatís what makes it work.  No one person or entity controls it and abuses are laid open.  And being in the open, the consumer can then react to make change.  You think that the government is the only entity that can make this change?

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Everything which is not NeoLiberalism is socialism.
Iíll agree with that.  Although, I still hate the term.  It seems that ďliberalismĒ in economics is good but ďliberalismĒ in government is bad.  Laissez-faire is really a Conservative concept as it preserves the wealth of a people or nation.  That has always been confusing especially for one like me who tries to simplify.  Perhaps that is the best reason to separate them.  Government should never be allowed to tap into the power that the market system creates.  That is the source of all evil.  The wealth belongs to the people, not the collective.

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A simple religious dialetic of easily resolvable black and white, good and evil with you as the great free market palladin with the magic wand to make everything better - if they just followed your perfect prescription.  You see its such a simple concept that I could frame it in two single sentence's. There is nothing subtle or deep about your understanding.
Except you have it wrong.  You are filled with such irrational jealousy.  That tells me that I threaten your comfort zone.  I consider that good.  Iíve defined the problem as black and white as much as I can make it.  However, the solution is far from black and white.  Defining the problem is not the same as solving or coming up with solutions.  Returning to our Constitutional principles and exercising Socialism from our system is far from simple and there is no magic wand.  But it must start someplace and speaking about it is a first step.  Calling a spade a spade is the first order of business.

Socialism is slavery along with all its brother and sister *Isms* because these are forms of government that trend toward grabbing more and more control over the people robbing them of their freedom.  What is needed is a government that doesnít protect the people but stays in its proper place (out of the lives of the people) to protect the Rights of the people.  And gee, if that isnít the Constitutional Republic that our Founding Fathers established.  My guess is that you really donít understand such a subtle and deep concept.

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I turn my back on your childish world view and get on with living in the real world.
Yeah, whatever.

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#81    RavenHawk

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 09:45 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 29 April 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

Your statement "Well, yes and no" is rather confusing, isn't it.  Torture may indeed be reality because of the Lucifer Effect that Zimbardo discovered, but assuming that laws mean what they say, it is illegal.
I donít think that has anything to do with it.  Itís an astute observation but thatís all.  I think everyone has a bit of evil in them.  But thatís assuming that all torture is evil.  Again, torture does not carry any value of good or evil.  It is in the intent of the one doing the torturing.  If it is part of war, then it isnít.  Then any law to make it illegal is artificial.  If you look at what Specialist Graner or Lt Calley or the Nazi war machine (in a collective sense) did you can see that effect.  But what about the actions of Genghis Khan?  He was certainly brutal but was the Lucifer Effect in effect here?  There were no laws written at that time so he surely didnít violate any.  I think he was a shrewd commander making logical decisions to save as many people as possible and as much infrastructure as possible.  It was better to sacrifice a few to capture and secure the rest.

Zimbardoís experiment only took one form of torture into consideration, prisoner pacification.  Plus, everyone going in knew it was not real.  I donít think it even touched on data mining.

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Now I know that Yoo and Bush & Co successfully corrupted the language and the thought process with their use of Enhanced Interrogation Techniques,
Yoo didnít corrupt the language, he exploited holes in it.  Diplomacy and statesmanship requires being precise or equally vague with language.  It is an art form.  If one can put artificial laws on torture, then someone else can equally legally establish caveats.  If you want legal then you have to play in the realm of legal.  Obama plays this game like a master and people sop it up.

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and that certain young troops were tricked into the Lucifer Effect by way of Bush's sophistry, and maybe you are one of those young troops, but some of us old farts knew that Bush was pushing sophistry then, and we still know it today.  
Well, it can be young troops or low information voters.  No, I am an old fart too and I approved of Bushís actions or as you say it, pushing sophistry.  Bush did what I would have felt needed to be done.

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Sometimes, however rarely, things are black or white.  
Including torture.

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Assaulting another person, whether by rape or by torture, is illegal, no matter what a politician might say.
I see rape as a form of torture and I agree that rape is wrong but as we saw with Genghis Khan, other forms of torture can be used for good.  Or for accomplishing a noble goal, like building an empire.  When GOD set the Israelites on the Canaanites, to kill them all to every man, woman, and child was good because it fulfilled a covenant.  But there are other forms that are good, like Data Mining.  Any nation must have the Right to do this form especially in war.

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Some of us do not allow a politician to define our moral standards.  I suppose some do, and perhaps you are one?
Iím hardly a low information voter.  But you seem to be under an incorrect assumption that there are moral standards in war.  There are not.  I follow the very wise advice: ďWar is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.Ē

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Is there such a thing as a noble war?  Is it possible to be fighting for an objectively defined good?  Or are subjective interpretations the heart of the legislative effort?  That is, is it possible in a noble war for one side to be barbaric while the other is honorable?  Or must both be barbarians?
There are always noble objectives.  It is always subjective.  Quite simply, the victor writes the history.  The other side is always the barbarian but truth be told both are just as barbarous.  War is not a gentlemanís club, it is a killing field.

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It sounds like you are trying to rationalize being barbaric to me, as you are trying in your own mind to rationalize assault in the form of torture.
Iím not trying to rationalize, that is what it is.  Iím not trying to rationalize torture, I merely accept it.  I know there are forms that I would not participate in and I know that there is no way for me to prevent the enemy from persecuting those forms I do not agree with.  But I must be able to use those forms that have a purpose that will give me an edge in battle.

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Should we really have any laws at all, since we are warlike?  After all, once the war begins, there is no more right or wrong, eh?
In war, it depends on the battlefield situation.  In war there is no right or wrong, only winning.  It must be this way.  We are a warrior people and someone had once calculated that in the last 3500 years, there have only been about 6 days (world wide) totally conflict free, but war without end is not good.

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#82    RavenHawk

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 10:04 PM

View Postregeneratia, on 29 April 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

Recently there has been a serious PR campaign in bought mainstream media to present Jr. in good light. But it seems the public will not have it.
Low information voters will remain so.  They are a squeaky wheel which suits the current Administration.  The negative scripting from the Left against Bush was the worse I have ever seen.  It actually left an artificial and indelible stigma.

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Jr.'s legacy will be that of squandering a surplus, recessions, neglect, torture, clinically insanely hearing voices, 9-11 happening on his watch despite a myriad of warnings,  two expensive and useless and senseless wars, and that he took the USA one hades of an alcoholic joyride.
All of that are low information voter talking points.  Where to begin?

What surplus?  The debt continued to increase under Clinton, there was no surplus.  Get it!?  Clinton left a $300 billion surplus in the deficit only (note the difference between the Debt and the Deficit) and thatís because he borrowed the 8% expected growth for the next year for that yearís budget.  He gave Bush a $300 billion deficit even before Bush took office.  This is why Clinton earned the title of *Smoke Ďní Mirrors*.

The dot.com bubble, Enron, etc and 9/11 recession was not his, but he did spend the next 5 years stabilizing the situation.  In that one area, he did an exemplary job.

Then when the Socialists took control of the House in 2007, set the seeds for the current recession.  When you force the banks to give out risky loans to people that can pay them back, what do you think was going to happen?  Who was in charge of the Home and financial sectors then?  They both had a big ďDĒ next to their names.  Just follow the paper trail.  Thatís all you need to do.

Iím pretty sure Lincoln heard voices and Washington probably talked to GOD.  Most Presidents did talk to GOD.  At some point in time it was those that didnít hear voices that were strange.

So someone that went to daily security briefings and understood that there was nothing concrete to worry about should be blamed for doing nothing, yet someone that doesnít take in the daily briefings to get a feel for whatís going on, think that they can just *pop into* the Command Center and sit there watching real time video while the American Ambassador in Benghazi is kill and does nothing.  And this should just be swept under the rug?

So now that Bin Laden was killed (and under suspicious circumstances), Afghanistan is a senseless war?  And what war was more necessary than Iraq?

Bush was a mediocre President at best but he did the best he could with what he had.  He took on all the challenges thrown at him but he couldnít overcome the Socialist Agenda.

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Bush was and is clinically insane. He was also still drinking while he was in the Oval Office.
Sounds like a low information voter still quaffing the koolaid.

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Just reminding you how Bush used to PAY reporters to present the story he wants to circulate. He had been caught at it. Stands to reasons this new PR campaign in mainstream media for Jr. is also being purchased.
And what President hadnít?  Hasnít Obama been caught at it?  I seem to recall the gal running one of the campaign debates using a script provided by Obamaís people.  Most of the MSM are in bed with Obama.  Obama is taking this nation for the biggest ride it has ever been on.  Heís jumped the ditch and driving over the cliff.

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#83    Babe Ruth

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 01:25 PM

RavenHawk

The Lucifer Effect was observed in a specific set of circumstances, and when I use the term, I try to remain faithful to that set of circumstances.  That is, when one human is the prisoner and the other being the guard, the effect manifests.

Your remarks about the Stanford experiments strongly suggest you did not read the book, so I won't comment further on that.

Your rationalization of torture speaks volumes, and I know many old farts who delude themselves in similar fashion.  You must live with yourself.

Your defense of Bush's crimes, 11 years after the fact, pretty well settle the matter for me.  One can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make him drink.


#84    RavenHawk

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 02:36 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 01 May 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

The Lucifer Effect was observed in a specific set of circumstances, and when I use the term, I try to remain faithful to that set of circumstances.  That is, when one human is the prisoner and the other being the guard, the effect manifests.
It also manifests in classroom experiments where the teacher will single out say, all blondes will receive special privileges.  But the problem is that those in the classroom or the Stanford volunteers are that everyone starts off equal.  In a real prison environment, the guard is always superior.  And it must be that way.  Guards are involved in Prisoner Pacification.  That is for everyoneís safety.  Guards must always humiliate the prisoners (like what you see with Abu Ghraib) to keep them in their places, if not then people get killed.  So in the experiment, the Lucifer Effect emerges.  In reality, it must initially start off that way.

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Your remarks about the Stanford experiments strongly suggest you did not read the book, so I won't comment further on that.
No, I have not read the book, but I have been aware of the experiment.  The experiment can only approximate reality.

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Your rationalization of torture speaks volumes, and I know many old farts who delude themselves in similar fashion.  You must live with yourself.
Whoís deluding themselves?  It really depends on oneís POV.  But I put it to you, GOD forbid you are ever captured by terrorists and their plan for you is torture and then cut off your head while all of it is televised.  What are you going to do?  Squeal like a little girl that their treatment of you is against the law?  Do you really think that is going to faze them at all?  That is the nature we are up against.  And we all must be prepared for that situation.

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Your defense of Bush's crimes, 11 years after the fact, pretty well settle the matter for me.  One can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make him drink.
This is why I think you are still quaffing the koolaid.  Bush has not committed any crimes.  Only the low information voter still believes that.  The MSM has you hooked by the mouth.

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#85    Babe Ruth

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 03:16 PM

You are taking the coolaid IV.  Intravenously.  For 11 years, lock, stock & barrel.

In a perverse sense, it is fascinating.


#86    Br Cornelius

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 03:43 PM

“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.”
Charles Darwin

The same is applicable to politics and economics.

Br Cornelius

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#87    RavenHawk

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 04:50 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 01 May 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

ďIgnorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.Ē

The same is applicable to politics and economics.
OK, and?  Or are you just babbling like a street dweller?

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#88    RavenHawk

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 05:22 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 01 May 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

You must live with yourself.
I live with myself quite well.  You see, I understand the spectrum of torture and I donít fool myself about reality.

View PostBabe Ruth, on 01 May 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

You are taking the coolaid IV.  Intravenously.  For 11 years, lock, stock & barrel.

In a perverse sense, it is fascinating.
I guess that is my problem.  I donít do koolaid.  I donít like Soma.  I donít mold my worldview from Hollywood or the MSM.

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#89    regeneratia

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 06:04 PM

Bush deserves negative scripting!!! Think of all the negative scripting he and his fAdministration handed out to other people. Hell, he had to BUY positive scripting from the media sometimes, as demonstrated by getting caught at it.
Your defense of the worst president in the history of the USA (Bush the stupider) is alarming.

Bin Laden was dead for decades. Obama carries on more lies.

Bush was way too stupid and insane to do the best that he could. At every press conference, you could see the physiological side-effects of the anti-psychotic drugs he was taking. It was obvious to me, trained to look for those things.

Just know that I stand and yell IN the aisle. I am not one of those lazy, thoughtless people on either side of the political aisle, not one of those who let a poltical party dictate my ideologies because I simply don't want to take a look at things and am willing to let someone else tell me what to think.


View PostRavenHawk, on 30 April 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

Low information voters will remain so.  They are a squeaky wheel which suits the current Administration.  The negative scripting from the Left against Bush was the worse I have ever seen.  It actually left an artificial and indelible stigma.


All of that are low information voter talking points.  Where to begin?

What surplus?  The debt continued to increase under Clinton, there was no surplus.  Get it!?  Clinton left a $300 billion surplus in the deficit only (note the difference between the Debt and the Deficit) and that's because he borrowed the 8% expected growth for the next year for that year's budget.  He gave Bush a $300 billion deficit even before Bush took office.  This is why Clinton earned the title of *Smoke 'n' Mirrors*.

The dot.com bubble, Enron, etc and 9/11 recession was not his, but he did spend the next 5 years stabilizing the situation.  In that one area, he did an exemplary job.

Then when the Socialists took control of the House in 2007, set the seeds for the current recession.  When you force the banks to give out risky loans to people that can pay them back, what do you think was going to happen?  Who was in charge of the Home and financial sectors then?  They both had a big "D" next to their names.  Just follow the paper trail.  That's all you need to do.

I'm pretty sure Lincoln heard voices and Washington probably talked to GOD.  Most Presidents did talk to GOD.  At some point in time it was those that didn't hear voices that were strange.

So someone that went to daily security briefings and understood that there was nothing concrete to worry about should be blamed for doing nothing, yet someone that doesn't take in the daily briefings to get a feel for what's going on, think that they can just *pop into* the Command Center and sit there watching real time video while the American Ambassador in Benghazi is kill and does nothing.  And this should just be swept under the rug?

So now that Bin Laden was killed (and under suspicious circumstances), Afghanistan is a senseless war?  And what war was more necessary than Iraq?

Bush was a mediocre President at best but he did the best he could with what he had.  He took on all the challenges thrown at him but he couldn't overcome the Socialist Agenda.


Sounds like a low information voter still quaffing the koolaid.


And what President hadn't?  Hasn't Obama been caught at it?  I seem to recall the gal running one of the campaign debates using a script provided by Obama's people.  Most of the MSM are in bed with Obama.  Obama is taking this nation for the biggest ride it has ever been on.  He's jumped the ditch and driving over the cliff.


Truth is such a rare quality, a stranger so seldom met in this civilization of fraud, that it is never received freely, but must fight its way into the world
Professor Hilton Hotema
(quote from THE BIBLE FRAUD)

Robert Heinlein: SECRECY IS THE HALLMARK OF TYRANNY!

#90    regeneratia

regeneratia

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 06:05 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 01 May 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

OK, and?  Or are you just babbling like a street dweller?

Do you always insult people? Or is it just this once?

Truth is such a rare quality, a stranger so seldom met in this civilization of fraud, that it is never received freely, but must fight its way into the world
Professor Hilton Hotema
(quote from THE BIBLE FRAUD)

Robert Heinlein: SECRECY IS THE HALLMARK OF TYRANNY!




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