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Great Pyramids VS Egyptian Pyramids


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#316    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:27 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 04 May 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

At first I thought you had written "wide lip" and was picturing those tribes who significantly distend their lips, which looks a bit disconcerting. I'm not sure what a "wide Hip" means, but the elongated neck photo was enough. :lol:



What I find most remarkable here is that you actually seem to be doubting that the mummified body found in KV62 does not belong to Tutankhamun. Really? What direction are you trying to take this?

In any case you're making some fundamental errors. Consider, for example, that while the Antechamber and Annex of KV62 had been entered by tomb raiders at least twice in ancient times, the burial chamber had never been violated. Its sealed door was found intact by Howard Carter in 1922. Moreover, once Carter and his team got into the burial chamber to clear it, the sarcophagus itself was sealed. I'm working from memory here, but of the four gilded-wood shrines surrounding the sarcophagus, the outermost door was never sealed but all three of the inner shrines' doors still had their original necropolis seals from more than 3,300 years ago.

Added to that, Tut's tomb was situated underground in the floor of the Valley of the Kings. As we know, Tut lived in Dynasty 18. In Dynasty 20, the joint tomb of Ramesses V / VI (KV9) was built into the cliff face uphill from Tut's tomb. In the quarrying operations for KV9, countless amounts of rubble and fill were dumped down the slope. The end result is that the upper sealed entrance to Tut's tomb, KV62, was completely buried in thick strata of this rubble and fill. Tutankhamun was a minor king in the first place—he did not live long, of course—and in all likelihood was quite forgotten by the time of Ramesses V. The proscriptions and erasures of Amarna history instituted by Horemheb and the early Ramessides would've helped to ensure that.

I'm not going to bog down the discussion with a debate on Amarna artwork or pharaonic art in general, but very rarely did royal artwork accurately depict or reflect the actual physical appearance of the kings for whom they were built. Tut himself is a good example of that, but an even better example is Ramesses II, one of the greatest kings in history. Were we to believe the royal art program of his nearly 70-year reign, we would be left to think Ramesses II was young and buff and beautiful until his dying day. And when that sad day came, we know Ramesses II was around 90 years old, so of course he was no longer young and buff and beautiful. But the statues depicting him still were.

You are correct that in its late years Egypt was repeatedly conquered. Of all of those conquerers, however, the Nubians seem to be the only ones who possessed a true veneration for or interest in Egyptian history and culture. Practically all of the others—Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Romans—didn't give much of a damn about Egypt itself, so long as they could get rich off its agriculture. Why you would suggest some Assyrian king or Roman emperor would be interested in "mixing up" things, doesn't make much sense to me. They simply would not have cared that much, and what would be the motive for it in the first place?

In conclusion, I'm aware some of this debate is about head binding. Let's put that to rest. Review the literature of the forensic experts who specialize in the study of ancient Egyptian human remains (e.g., Joyce Filer in particular). There is no evidence for skull deformation in the pharaonic society. While it may have been practiced elsewhere in ancient Africa, bear in mind that "Africa" is a modern place name and not a culture. Skull deformation was not part of the ancient Egyptian culture. No one can deny that Tut himself has an oddly shaped skull, but all forensic experts who examined it are in agreement that it's still within normal dimensions for the skull of a modern human.

I will doubt Carter and all Egyptologists who made these finds before Videography. Why should i blindly believe Carter when other evidence is saying contrary.
All i am saying is that when things are not adding up, like the Amarna Busts and the actual mummies claimed to be the individual, it could be due to other reasons then abstract art.

Like i said mummies from Tut's time period were commonplace in those times, maybe Carter put one in the Sarcophagus and sealed it. He didn't want an empty Sarcophagus.

I am only being skeptical of things which were not documented properly and for which we have to rely on Individual testimony.

Forensic science can only tell us so much. There is no actual labelled DNA evidence from the real TUT to compare the mummy sample to and confirm.

Obviously the forensic experts have concluded that the alleged tut mummy did not have a distorted skull, what i am saying is that the mummy is not Tut's. Maybe the original Tut did have a bound head. His body could have been destroyed previously by robbers etc, Carter could have replaced it with another mummy from the same period, that belonging to a person whose head was not bound.Or maybe one of the later Pharoah used Tut's tomb and sarcophagus for himself. There are many possibilities.


#317    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:34 AM

View PostHarte, on 04 May 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

For myself, I'm surprised that you have examined the small amount of data Schoch gathered.  Like I said, most posters on forums have never seen it.  It also surprised me because you argue about water erosion, when you've seen for yourself that Schoch's hypothesis not only does not rely on erosion, but never actually even mentions it.

My point, which you appear to have misunderstood, is that the erosion in the sphinx enclosure cannot be used to substantiate Schoch's claim at all.  For two reasons.  First, like I said, his claim does not rely on it.  Second, like I said, not enough is known about weather (not weathering) patterns in Egypt over the last 5,000 years.

I realize that Schoch attempts to connect the subsurface weathering (due to exposure to air) with what he considers to be purely water erosion (in the aboveground enclosure) in his essays.  However, this erosion is not part of his data.

Since Schoch's paper was published, it has been discovered that there were some very wet periods in the time of Ancient Egypt.  We do not know the rainfall conditions for the entire time period of the Egyptian Civilization.

Salt exfoliation is rampant in the enclosure, however.  Given the obvious exfoliation, which causes layers of the surface of the stone to separate from the stone body, imagine the effect that high winds and rains would have on the stone surface and it's not hard to see that erosion of the enclosure and the sphinx would be greatly accelerated over what would be accomplished with wind and rain alone, without exfoliation.

Regarding what you mention about the apparent weathering patterns of the eroded stone, Schoch himself admitted that such patterns are far more dependant on the original morphologyof the stone itself that on the action that caused the observed pattern of erosion.  I believe this was in response to some points made by one of his (Geologist) critics that you seem to be unaware of.

I used to have links to these criticisms, by the way, but that was three computers and four hard drives ago.  This subject is quite old, you know, no pun intended.  Some of these criticisms have been linked to at this forum in the past, as well as others that were new to me (at that time.)  I fear you cannot depend on me to find these criticisms that you seek for you.  As Kmt_sesh will attest, I am semi-retired from rebutting the same claims over and over now.  I mainly focus these days on giving what I know, and that usually without links, because I'm not going to do more work that any claimant, I'm just going to point out why I know they are wrong.   It takes up less of my life that way.  But you can find them yourself.  They're out there, and as I said, some of them are linked here, though quite some time ago.

Schoch's data itself is somewhat suspect, given the small area of the enclosure to the west of the sculpture (only three readings in the rear on a line only ten meters long - admittedly not Schoch's fault, but still...) and the fact that limestone is quite non-homogeneous.  This applies even more to his exercise of assuming a linear progression of weathering in order to obtain his range of dates for the supposed carving of the sculpture.  Because limestone is so variable, and because, as you likely know, there are multiple layers in the enclosure of widely varying hardness, and said layers are not parallel with the surface, the idea that one could calculate a date for the sculpture through examining subsurface weathering (due to air contact) is specious, at best.

On the other hand, I tip my hat to you for at least looking at the data.  Now, look harder.  The data shows that the sides of the enclosure are, in many spots, older than the front (east) side.  By Schoch's logic, then, the sides were carved out before the front.  By several hundred years, in fact.  How could this be explained?  The same way I explained why Schoch's data is suspect.


Harte
It is good that you are doubting and accepting the fact that we do not know much about anything including the climate even 5000 years ago.
Hope you extend the doubt that you are extending for Scoch's theory to all other Anthropologists, Paleo Climatologists and Evolutionists, basically anyone who claims to know what exactly happened 1000's of years ago including egyptologists.

Why the Spinx is attributed to Khafre?
A different argument used by Egyptologists to ascribe the Sphinx to Khafra is the “context” theory, which notes that the Sphinx is located in the context of the funerary complex surrounding the Second Pyramid, which is traditionally connected with Khafra


I rather take Scoch's geological evidence over the Context theory.


#318    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:38 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 05 May 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

Thanks Boss ... shaken and stirred ... vigorously :tu:

I still look at it this way ....
A geometrical Pyramid is a perfection of angles set to mathematical 'abstracts' of the highest degree possible in theories of stability.
The Gizamids is the perfection of this made into reality.The AEs were not only persistent, they were insistent and succeeded.

I can't help but feel that the pattern of megalomaniac behavior of the Pharaohs began after the GIZAmids .... when construction standards began to deteriorate ....
And all this great knowledge of how things were in the tombs is from Carter's own account?
There was no videography to show us how Carter exactly found the tombs.


#319    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:41 AM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 05 May 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

If you read about the chronology of the Pyramids, it is evident from the records in forms of hieroglyphics, paintings and engravings about the pharaohs they are connected to.

Keeping aside the fringe belief that the great Pyramids are older than the other pyramids, following the timeline of the Pyramids, the step pyramid, the bent pyramid, the red/North pyramids were built, and later culminating in the proper Pyramidal shape of the GP.

Other than fringe theories, do you have any records, dated reports and analysis done to prove your point?
What about the small and rather ignorable attempts of building pyramids after the GP? The art evolved to magnificance of the GP and then declined so terribly?
Nevermind, you can believe in whatever illogical postulates worse of then Fringe that satisfy you.


#320    third_eye

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:43 AM

ERNEST MOYER'S RESEARCH
SOME PERSPECTIVES ON PYRAMID CHRONOLOGY

Quote

Lift

After the stones arrived on site they had to be staged for lifting into place. Many different methods have been proposed, with no consensus among the many students of the pyramids. Lehner preferred a traditional ramp surrounding the pyramid. Remnants of small ramps have been found at various locations in the pyramid geographical areas. The location of the east and west cemeteries at Giza 1 would prohibit ramps built outward from the pyramid. Therefore, he elected for a winding ramp encircling the pyramid as it grew. But he admitted difficulties with such proposal. A ramp had two major problems. First, the amount of material required for a ramp is roughly the size of the pyramid. This would almost double the manpower required for construction. Second, how could the builders maintain alignment of the structure when it was buried under a mound of rubble? This is one of the most important elements in our understanding of lift methods. One cannot bury the pyramid inside a ramp and maintain a constant square, a constant slope, and the finesse of the slight indentation Petrie discovered at the center of the four sides of the core structure. (This indentation cannot be visually observed except from overhead aircraft with proper position of the sun.)



Quote

.... means that as the stones were laid in precise horizontal misalignment from each corner to adjacent corners they had to be surveyed to accomplish the indentation with precise measure. How did the builders prevent this indentation from skewing as they proceeded up the pyramid? It not only means that they had to preserve open sighting, but also that the distances to the center of each course had to be minutely measured, both from the corners, and up the face.

bold tis mine
link


Quote

Egyptology under Challenge

.... In 1984, 85 samples were taken from the Giza Plateau, including five from the Sphinx, which were submitted for carbon-dating. The results showed dates from 3809 to 2869 BC. It meant that the accepted Egyptian chronology for the building of the Giza pyramids was out by 200 to 1,200 years. Bauval quotes Mark Lehner: "The Giza pyramid is 400 years earlier than Egyptologists believe."23

bold tis mine
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#321    third_eye

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:46 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 06 May 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

And all this great knowledge of how things were in the tombs is from Carter's own account?
There was no videography to show us how Carter exactly found the tombs.

Cameras were available then ?
Couldn't find any on youtube ?

:lol:

maybe this can help :

Quote


This successful and highly-esteemed British Museum reference work is now republished in a new pocket-sized edition. This authoritative illustrated dictionary provides clear explanations and descriptions of the important ideas, events and personalities throughout four thousand years of Egyptian civilization. More than 600 extensively cross-referenced and comprehensively-indexed A-Z entries provide detailed information on all aspects of ancient Egypt and Nubia during the pharaonic and Graeco-Roman periods. Each entry is followed by a bibliography. The dictionary is lavishly illustrated throughout with photographs, line drawings, site plans and maps.

Posted Image

amazon link

Edited by third_eye, 06 May 2013 - 06:50 AM.

He who postpones the hour of living rightly ... is like the rustic who waits for the river to run out ... before he crosses.
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#322    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:56 AM

View PostSheep Smart, on 06 May 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

but not propaganda. you made your point.
i believe paranoids need something to believe in. or else...
+1
Have been down that tunnel, was a big supporter of everything is in control and everything is explained when i was a paranoid little geek.
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#323    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:08 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 06 May 2013 - 02:23 AM, said:

One thing I find most interesting is that the original entrances to the pyramids were quite high off ground level compared to the later dynastic attempts, with the 'facing' stones in place I can't help but wonder how they, the AEs got in or out of the structures.

Not only the entrances, what about the ascending passage? Only in GP,later pyramids didn't have it. The ascending passage was sealed by granite slabs and that may be the reason that the later pyramids didn't have them.


#324    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:13 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 06 May 2013 - 03:13 AM, said:

Hasn't DNA testing conclusively put Tut's mummy into the timeline? To challenge Tut is to challenge the whole established series of Dynastys.


Harte addressed this I think. What is happening here is due to varying densities and strengths of the stone layers.

As to why it might erode faster... I don't see erosion that couldn't have happened in 4500 years. As Harte pointed out we can't know what the weather in that time was accurately enough. These particular constructions date to Twice the age of Rome. These ruins were the same age to the Romans that the Romans are to us.

Also whos to say they did not create some of this apparent water damage during the time of contruction? Supposedly there was water all over the plateau for almost a century? What is the plateau's dranage pattern? I've heard that flash floods can tear through the Giza area and create quite a lot of damage. That would lead to the idea that drainage tends toward the river.


Their only "Fail" was in using Mud Bricks rather then stone...
Again erosion caused by a flood would leave a more uniform pattern on other structures as well, this is not observed.
The erosion pattern matches perfectly with that caused by continous torrential rains.
Torrential rains, the causitive is indicative of age, the rate of errosion can vary with stone and intensity of rainfall. In order to correctly interpret this observation, we need to find out when there was terrential rainfall in Giza?. Torrential rains have not been observed in Giza in the last 5000 years.

We don't have a sample from the original Tut to compare with the DNA of the mummy.Though i heard of some relation being established between different mummies with DNA testing, but Hawass was incharge of this operation, i doubt it.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 06 May 2013 - 07:21 AM.


#325    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:16 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 06 May 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

I just gave a very good argument of why it is possible that the mummy in tut's tomb isn't tut. You are making the positive claim, so burden of proof lies on you, If you claim that you are 100% sure that there is no alternative possible then please tell us why?
Ridiculous comment. It is for YOU to prove mummy in KV62 is not Tutankhamun. You have given NO argument for it not to be, other than to repeat total fabricated nonsense put forward by a UK trash TV pseudo documentary over ten years ago. This nonsense told that Carter had found the tomb in about 1912 and then spent ten years clearing it before arranging some scam. You can believe that, but I, and the rest of the world will not. Do not insult anybody here by putting forward this crap and demanding that I prove it wrong. You show remarkable lack of knowledge abou real AE history. I reccomend you pick up a good book on their history in whatever is your native language. I will not hammer my head against wall like this for your obvious pleasure, and for you to laugh at people wasting their time having to teach you basic history time and time again.

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 06 May 2013 - 07:17 AM.


#326    The_Spartan

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:17 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 06 May 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

What about the small and rather ignorable attempts of building pyramids after the GP? The art evolved to magnificance of the GP and then declined so terribly?
Nevermind, you can believe in whatever illogical postulates worse of then Fringe that satisfy you.


Please list out these "small & rather ignorable" attemps to check, analyse and clarify the matter you are referring to.

My understanding is that

1st and foremost reason - cost and scale.The later paharaos/Dynasties couldnt afford to spend more resources on tombs, so the sizes diminshed.

Their attentions would be on more pressing matters of the kingdom like enemies /invaders at the borders, draught and famine etc.

So their attention changed from seeking glory through the pyramids and focussed more real world worries /problems.

If you are also considferign the Nubians Pyramids, then be ifnormed that it wasnt just the Nubian roltyalty who were entombed in the nubian  pyramids, every richie rich of those times in nubia could also get a pyramid tomb if they had the moolah.


Ditto to you.
Aside from asking the questions, you are claiming that the GP was built in ancient times predating the egyptians & since you claim you are a person of science, do you have any scientific material/data/records that would back your theory/psotulastes?


What is the purpose of asking you anyway? You never deliver. or deliberately avoid delivering when asked for.
You wont accept anything the academia has written about or have found. You are rigid in your beliefs and so whats the use?
If you can debate and assimilate data, its well & good enough. But if you dont? then , whats the purpose?

Edited by The_Spartan, 06 May 2013 - 07:17 AM.

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#327    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:23 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 06 May 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

Cameras were available then ?
Couldn't find any on youtube ?

:lol:

maybe this can help :



Posted Image

amazon link
These are personal testimonies that we read and accept without questioning. People are capable of doing a lot of mischeif when the eye in the sky is not watching everything. Why else do you think that security cameras have been heavily installed in work places as well as residential buildings.


#328    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:25 AM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 06 May 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Ridiculous comment. It is for YOU to prove mummy in KV62 is not Tutankhamun. You have given NO argument for it not to be, other than to repeat total fabricated nonsense put forward by a UK trash TV pseudo documentary over ten years ago. This nonsense told that Carter had found the tomb in about 1912 and then spent ten years clearing it before arranging some scam. You can believe that, but I, and the rest of the world will not. Do not insult anybody here by putting forward this crap and demanding that I prove it wrong. You show remarkable lack of knowledge abou real AE history. I reccomend you pick up a good book on their history in whatever is your native language. I will not hammer my head against wall like this for your obvious pleasure, and for you to laugh at people wasting their time having to teach you basic history time and time again.
You are again boderlining on being religious about the Issue. You and Carter and many other Egyptologists claim that the mummy is tut's, prove it beyond all reasonable doubt.
Are you even capable of being a skeptic?

Oh so i have insulted your delicate sensitivities by questioning Carter's report. They are personal accounts that you rely on so unquestioningly, that might not be prudent. There is no video evidence of how Carter found the tombs and opened it. Whatever country you live in, please check the validity of such evidence in the presence of counter evidence.

Carter spending ten years to clear the tomb, can be a reason for him to plant a mummy in an empty Sarcophagus.Imagine the dissapointment he must have faced if he found the sarcophagus empty.

What is AE history for you? Is it only based on personel testimonies of these initial adventurers? You and other's like you may be the ultimate insult to the actual AE history, borne out of your willing acceptance of these eye witness testimonies given by foreign adventurers in Egypt.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 06 May 2013 - 07:34 AM.


#329    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:37 AM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 06 May 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

Please list out these "small & rather ignorable" attemps to check, analyse and clarify the matter you are referring to.

My understanding is that

1st and foremost reason - cost and scale.The later paharaos/Dynasties couldnt afford to spend more resources on tombs, so the sizes diminshed.

Their attentions would be on more pressing matters of the kingdom like enemies /invaders at the borders, draught and famine etc.

So their attention changed from seeking glory through the pyramids and focussed more real world worries /problems.

If you are also considferign the Nubians Pyramids, then be ifnormed that it wasnt just the Nubian roltyalty who were entombed in the nubian  pyramids, every richie rich of those times in nubia could also get a pyramid tomb if they had the moolah.


Ditto to you.
Aside from asking the questions, you are claiming that the GP was built in ancient times predating the egyptians & since you claim you are a person of science, do you have any scientific material/data/records that would back your theory/psotulastes?


What is the purpose of asking you anyway? You never deliver. or deliberately avoid delivering when asked for.
You wont accept anything the academia has written about or have found. You are rigid in your beliefs and so whats the use?
If you can debate and assimilate data, its well & good enough. But if you dont? then , whats the purpose?
Your explanation don't make sense to a lot of people.
You say the art of pyramid building progressed geometrically to the pinnacle observed in the GP and later declined even faster for no provable reasons.
There are no other structures of comparable scale observed in Egypt as the GP.

The structure i.e the GP and Sphinx itself is the evidence for this Ancient culture, predating the mainstream AE dynasties.

We don't need new evidence, look at manetho's list , maybe it was PiTAH (i.e ptah) the father who built the GP.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 06 May 2013 - 07:40 AM.


#330    The_Spartan

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:45 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 06 May 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

Your explanation don't make sense to a lot of people.
You say the art of pyramid building progressed geometrically to the pinnacle observed in the GP and later declined even faster for no provable reasons.
There are no other structures of comparable scale observed in Egypt as the GP.

The structure i.e the GP and Sphinx itself is the evidence for this Ancient culture, predating the mainstream AE dynasties.

We don't need new evidence, look at manetho's list , maybe it was PiTAH (i.e ptah) the father who built the GP.

talk about the GP. Keep Sphinx aside.
Evidence please?


How wonderful of you trying to plug in something smelling of ancient indians with the PITAH/Father stuff and link  it to the Ancient Egyptians.
Soon, will you  claim link between every god in the Hindu Pantheon with the Egyptian pantheon.??
I guess, naturally, you will be at it soon.

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