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How to stop zealotry?


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26 replies to this topic

#16    White Crane Feather

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:33 PM

View PostProfessor T, on 20 April 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:


And lot's of Muslims and Christians in the gutter as well. There's your disparity..

I don't think it's the wealthy Jihadists strapping bombs to their 2013 Merc's with a trunk full of explosives to go to the mall.. It's the poor, who do the dirty work..
That's only half the equation though. The zealotry still comes from those with money aswell even if they are less willing to do the dirty work.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#17    Frank Merton

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:39 PM

How does Oklahoma City fit into this picture?


#18    Zaphod222

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:39 PM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 20 April 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:


The problem here is the bombers originate from a different nation which has a different national culture, religion and moral compass.

The jihad is not bound to a "nation". It is bound to a particular political religion. You can be sure that Christian and Jewish citizens of Chechnia (the few that are left) are not going on a jihad.

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#19    White Crane Feather

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:40 PM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 20 April 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:



We are western so we have grown up in similar cultures which have given us the same ideological beliefs, same religion or atheism, same moral compass, same love for Democracy and freedom, etc.

The reason why terrrorists are trying to kill our peoples isnt limited cognitive abilities or a lack of education. Its because all of the above were different in their homelands and because of that a lot of them have a tendency to see us as weird or evil. Its just like how we might see North Koreans if we turned up in their country.

The problem here is multi-cultural society as it doesnt deal with the differences in national cultures of immigrants. Worse, it allows people to keep them which sows the seed for future internal problems. These people are not blowing us up out of darkness but because in their minds they see it as morally justified. What should be happening is a cultural induction when immigrants turn up on our doorsteps and then an assessment to make sure they've adopted it. If they havent they should be deported back to their 'own world'.
Still we have mcvey and the unibomber amoung others. I suppose if I showed up in north Korea I would seem like a radical. The more I think about it, the more it seems that if we are going to live in a large diverse society, it might simply be unavoidable.

Cognative dissonance is where one refuses to change their stance in the face of overwhelming evidence simply because psychologically it is more difficult for them to change. Usually as a result of how much they have invested in one thought pattern. It's often associated with cults.

Edited by Seeker79, 20 April 2013 - 01:42 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#20    Zaphod222

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:42 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 20 April 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

How does Oklahoma City fit into this picture?

It fits in as a wet dream of our political and media elite. The so desparately wanted this to be the act of some kind of of right-wing, anti-government redneck type. In which case we would hear none of the excuses that we are hearing now... instead it would be a sound condemnation of the ideology.

Alas, the numbers are working against them,. Rightist wingnut bombers are few and far between, while the jihad is a live and growing.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#21    Frank Merton

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:42 PM

People have been throwing bombs ever since they were invented, and before that they were shooting arrows.


#22    Zaphod222

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:47 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 20 April 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

My idea is to start about sixth grade and give every child through the end of high school an advanced education in critical thinking. It should be worked out to be just as important as math or reading and the cariculum would be required in every school.

I want to spend more time teaching kids how to think instead of what to think.

What do you think? What are your ideas?

I think you should tell us how you want to get the various mosques and madarassas where the children are radicalized to join your plan...

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#23    redhen

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:49 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 20 April 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

My idea is to start about sixth grade and give every child through the end of high school an advanced education in critical thinking. It should be worked out to be just as important as math or reading and the cariculum would be required in every school.

Yes, this would be a great idea, not just for refuting bizarre, external ideologies but also to prepare to refute college professors who use their classroom for their own warped political agendas.

I don't know how useful it would be against those who have compartmentalized their beliefs and behaviours, or sociopaths who truly don't care about ethics or reasoning, but any education is a good thing. It's sad that the Czech embassy has to post a public announcement on it's website pointing out that

"The Czech Republic and Chechnya are two very different entities - the Czech Republic is a Central European country; Chechnya is a part of the Russian Federation."

Got that?

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.


#24    Zaphod222

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:51 PM

View PostProfessor T, on 20 April 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

I don't think it's the wealthy Jihadists strapping bombs to their 2013 Merc's with a trunk full of explosives to go to the mall.. It's the poor, who do the dirty work..

It is comfortable to think so, because it fits in with our Western world view. But if you look at reality, the opposite is the case. The jihad is largely an enterprise of the wealth. The dirt poor are busy surviving. And yes, wealthy Saudis are actually strapping bombs to their 2013 mercs on their way to paradise. And by the way, Osama Bin Ladin himself was a multi-billionnaire; in fact an heir to one of the wealthiest families in Saudi Arabia.

Sorry to burst your bubble...

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#25    Professor T

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:55 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 20 April 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

That's only half the equation though. The zealotry still comes from those with money aswell even if they are less willing to do the dirty work.

True that......
I kind of think that the other half of the equation relates to the psychology of the belief and it's structure.. There's someone else there that captures these zealots'.. I think that If you took 100 people and indoctrinated them all to follow your evil plan for the world, 99 of them would be mediocre, but 1 would bow to any wish..


#26    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:56 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 20 April 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Still we have mcvey and the unibomber amoung others. I suppose if I showed up in north Korea I would seem like a radical. The more I think about it, the more it seems that if we are going to live in a large diverse society, it might simply be unavoidable.

Cognative dissonance is where one refuses to change their stance in the face of overwhelming evidence simply because psychologically it is more difficult for them to change. Usually as a result of how much they have invested in one thought pattern. It's often associated with cults.

I didnt know that. I would agree that some of the immigrants cant change their thought patterns. They should be identified and screened out.


#27    Frank Merton

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 02:02 PM

I am going to be scandalous here and say that I don't think education does hardly anything to help with social problems.  Criminals are still criminals, bigots are still bigots, zealots are still zealots.   You can't even teach politeness and morals.  They sit in the class and dismiss it all or don't even listen.

Education does better when it concentrates on providing skills, like maths and reading and languages and how to swim or tie knots.





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