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Could Jesus have been female ?


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#46    third_eye

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 03:41 PM

JC is reported to have kissed her on the lips because he did loved her more than the rest of gang who was reportedly 'jealous' of that.

Even at the very beginning the twelve chosen couldn't handle what JC dictated as what was required of them.

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#47    Abramelin

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:01 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 30 April 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

JC is reported to have kissed her on the lips because he did loved her more than the rest of gang who was reportedly 'jealous' of that.

Even at the very beginning the twelve chosen couldn't handle what JC dictated as what was required of them.

That was not what was written, it's just one interpretation of a gap in the text:

The other passage, referring to Jesus kissing Mary Magdalene, is incomplete because of damage to the original manuscript. Several words are missing. The best guesses as to what they were are shown below in brackets. Most notably there is a hole in the manuscript after the phrase "and used to kiss her often on her...." But the passage appears to describe Jesus kissing Magdalene, apparently described as "barren" and "the mother of the angels" at the beginning of the relevant paragraph and using a parable to explain to the disciples why he loved her more than he loved them:

    "As for the Wisdom who is called 'the barren', she is the mother of the angels. And the companion of [the saviour was Mar]y Ma[gda]lene. [Christ loved] M[ary] more than [all] the disci[ples, and used to] kiss her [softly] on her [hand]. The rest of [the disciples were offended by it and expressed disapproval]. They said to him "Why do you love her more than all of us?" The Saviour answered and said to them, "Why do I not love you like her? When a blind man and one who sees are both together in darkness, they are no different from one another. When the light comes, then he who sees will see the light, and he who is blind will remain in darkness.
"

However, "hand" is not necessarily the word after "kiss her... on her". It may have been cheek, forehead or feet to simply show respect.

http://en.wikipedia....ospel_of_Philip


#48    third_eye

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 07:42 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 May 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

That was not what was written, it's just one interpretation of a gap in the text:

The other passage, referring to Jesus kissing Mary Magdalene, is incomplete because of damage to the original manuscript. Several words are missing. The best guesses as to what they were are shown below in brackets. Most notably there is a hole in the manuscript after the phrase "and used to kiss her often on her...." But the passage appears to describe Jesus kissing Magdalene, apparently described as "barren" and "the mother of the angels" at the beginning of the relevant paragraph and using a parable to explain to the disciples why he loved her more than he loved them:

"As for the Wisdom who is called 'the barren', she is the mother of the angels. And the companion of [the saviour was Mar]y Ma[gda]lene. [Christ loved] M[ary] more than [all] the disci[ples, and used to] kiss her [softly] on her [hand]. The rest of [the disciples were offended by it and expressed disapproval]. They said to him "Why do you love her more than all of us?" The Saviour answered and said to them, "Why do I not love you like her? When a blind man and one who sees are both together in darkness, they are no different from one another. When the light comes, then he who sees will see the light, and he who is blind will remain in darkness.
"

However, "hand" is not necessarily the word after "kiss her... on her". It may have been cheek, forehead or feet to simply show respect.

http://en.wikipedia....ospel_of_Philip

This ?

Quote

59. The wisdom which (humans) call barren is herself the Mother of the Angels.¹ And the
companion of the [Christ] is Mariam the Magdalene. The [Lord loved] Mariam more than
[all the (other)] Disciples, [and he] kissed her often on her [mouth].² The other [women] saw
his love for Mariam,
c
they say to him: Why do thou love [her] more than all of us?|| The
Saviorº replied,³ he says to them: Why do I not love you as (I do) her? (¹Pro 8:12+32, Lk 7:35!!, Ph 40;
²Pro 24:26, S-of-S 1:2/6:9, Th 61b/107, Ph 35/36, Lewis Wallace, Ben Hur, V.16: ‘He kissed her. Was it only a kiss of peace?’;
³asyndeton; hyperlinear)
60. (While¹) a blind (person) and one who sees are both in the dark, they do not differ from
one another. When the light comes, then he who sees shallbehold the light, and he who is
blinded shall remain in the darkness. (¹asyndeton; Jn 9, Th 34; hyperlinear)

Gospel of Philip www.metalog.org/files/philip.html

On the other hand 'It' may have been otherwise ...

Quote

If we compare John 19:25-27 with the passage from the Gospel of Philip cited previously, we notice some striking
similarities.
**There were three who always walked with the Lord: Mary his mother and her sister and
Magdalene, the one who was called his companion. His sister and his mother and his companion
were each a Mary (NHC II.3.59.6-11) (Robinson 1988: 145).**

The Gospel of Philip makes reference to the same group of women that are standing by the Cross in the Fourth
Gospel. However, the Gospel of Philip clearly cites Mary Magdalene as the "companion" of Jesus. Brown's
explanation for this similarity is that the Gnostic writers were somehow influenced by the Fourth Gospel into
making Mary Magdalene the disciple whom Jesus loved the most (1979: 154). In other words, as stated previously,
he argues that what we read in the Gospel of Philip is a reaction to what is written in the canonical Fourth Gospel.

Mary Magdalene: Author of the Fourth Gospel?
by Ramon K. Jusino, M.A.


Quote

When Mary stops speaking, an argument breaks out:
When Mary had said this, she fell silent, since it was to this point that the Savior had
spoken with her. But
Andrew answered and said to the brethren, "Say what you will about what she has said.
I, at least, do not believe
that the Savior said this, for certainly these teachings are strange ideas."
85
Andrew's brother Peter adds: "Did he really speak with a woman without our knowledge, and not
openly? Are we supposed to turn and listen to her? Did he love her more than us?"
Then Mary wept, and said to Peter, "My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think
that I made this up
myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Savior?" Levi answered and said to
Peter, "Peter, you have
always been hot tempered. Now I see you contending against the woman as our enemies
do. But if the Savior
made her worthy, who are you, indeed, to reject her? Surely the Savior knows her very
well. That is why he
loved her more than us. Rather, let us be ashamed, and . . . preach the gospel."
86

ELAINE PAGELS - BEYOND BELIEF THE SECRET GOSPEL OF THOMAS
© 1998



Quote

What   Quispel   held   in   his   hand,   the  Gospel   of   Thomas,  was   only   one   of   the   fifty-two   texts
discovered at NagHammadi (the usual English transliteration ofthe town's name). Bound into the
same  volume   with   it   is   the  Gospel   of   Philip,  which   attributes   to   Jesus   acts   and   sayings   quite
different from those inthe New Testament:
.   .   .   the  companion   of  the   [Savior  is]   Mary  Magdalene.   [But  Christ   loved]   her  more  than   [all]   the
disciples,  and used to kiss her [often] on her [mouth]. The rest of [the disciples were offended] . . .
They  said  to   him,  "Why   do  you   love   her   more  than   all   of  us?"   The  Savior   answered  and   said   to
them,"Why do I not love you as (I love) her?"

Quote

Prof.   Elaine Pagels   has   argued   that   Christian   Gnostic   women   enjoyed   a   far   greater   degree   of   social   and
ecclesiastical   equality   than   their   orthodox   sisters.   Jesus   himself,   taught   some   Gnostics,   had
prefigured   this   mystic   relationship:   His   most   beloved   disciple   had   been   a   woman,   Mary Magdalene, his consort.The Gospel of Philip relates

"...the   companion   of   the   Savior   is   Mary   Magdalene.   But   Christ   loved   her  more   than   all   the
disciples,   and   used   to   kiss   her   often   on   her   mouth.   The  rest   of   the   disciples   were  offended...
They said to him,  "Why do you love her more than all of us? the Savior answered and said to
them, "Why do I not love you as I love her?"
19
The   most  mysterious  and   sacred   of  all   Gnostic   rituals   may  have   played   upon  this   perception   of
God   as   "duality   seeking   unity."   The  Gospel   of   Philip  (which   in   its   entirety   might   be   read   as   a
commentary on Gnostic ritual)relates that the Lord established five great sacraments or mysteries:
"a baptism and achrism, and a eucharist,and a redemption, and a bridal chamber."
20
Whether this ultimate sacrament of the bridal chamber was a  ritual enacted by a man and women,an allegorical
term   for   a   mystical   experience,   or   a   union   of   both,   we   do   not   know.   Only   hints   are   given   in
Gnostic texts about what this sacrament might be:
Christ   came   to   rectify   the   separation...   and   join   the   two   components;   and   to   give   life   unto
those   who   had   died   by   separation   and   join   them   together.   Now   a   woman   joins   with   her
husband  in  the  bridal  [chamber],   and  those  who  have  joined   in   the  bridal  [chamber]  will   not
reseparate.
21

Quote

As for the Wisdom who is called "the barren," she is the mother of the angels. And the companion
of the [...] Mary Magdalene.[...]loved her more than all the disciples,and used to kiss her often on
her mouth.  The  rest  of  the  disciples   [...].   They  said  to  him  "Why  do  you  love   her  more  than  all of
us?"   The  Savior  answered   and  said  to   them,"Why  do  I   not   love   you  like   her?  When  a  blind  man
and one who sees are both together in darkness, they are no different from one another. When the
light comes, then he who sees will see the light, and he who is blind will remain in darkness."
The Lord said,  "Blessed  is  he who is  before  he came into   being.   For  he who  is,  has been  and shall
be."

The Gospel of Philip CODEX II
Translatedby Wesley W. Isenberg
Selection made from JamesM. Robinson, ed., The Nag Hammadi Library, revised edition. HarperCollins,San Francisco, 1990.

Quote

"And he kissed my mouth. He took hold of me, saying, "My beloved! Behold, I shall reveal to you
those things that (neither) the heavens nor their archons have known. Behold, I shall reveal to you
those   things   that   he   did   not   know,   he   who  boasted,   "[...]   there   is   no   other   except   me.  Am  I   not
alive?   Because   I   am   a  father,   do   I   not   have   power   for   everything?"   Behold,   I   shall   reveal   to   you
everything,   my   beloved.   Understand   and   know   them,   that   you   may   come   forth   just   as   I   am.
Behold, I  shall  reveal  to you him who  is   hidden.  But  now, stretch   out your hand.  Now, take  hold
of me."
THE (SECOND) APOCALYPSE OF JAMES
CODEX V
Translated by Charles W. Hedrick
Selection made from JamesM. Robinson, ed., The Nag Hammadi Library, revised edition. HarperCollins,San Francisco, 1990

The Nag Hammadi Library
James M Robinson General Editor

Quote

24:26 Every man shall kiss his lips that giveth a right answer.

    (King James Bible, Proverbs)

Le Wiki needs an update perhaps Abe ?

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#49    Abramelin

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:21 AM

I have the book (James M. Robinson), and the gaps are filled in with the words of which it has been assumed should be in them.

I only use Wiki because I won't have to write it all myself, but what everyone says is "lips" is not there.


#50    third_eye

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:27 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 May 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

I have the book (James M. Robinson), and the gaps are filled in with the words of which it has been assumed should be in them.

I only use Wiki because I won't have to write it all myself, but what everyone says is "lips" is not there.

I'm not that immersed in the thick of it but I believe that the common consensus is either 'mouth' of 'lips' as the fragments translated by Wesley W. Isenberg of 'The Gospel of Philip CODEX II' has the phrase in completion, as far as I can tell //

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#51    Abramelin

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:42 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 07 May 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

I'm not that immersed in the thick of it but I believe that the common consensus is either 'mouth' of 'lips' as the fragments translated by Wesley W. Isenberg of 'The Gospel of Philip CODEX II' has the phrase in completion, as far as I can tell //

And that's the translation in my book. The book contains the translations of many scholars. James M. Robinson was the editor and only his name is on the cover (of the 1984 edition).


#52    third_eye

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:45 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 May 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

And that's the translation in my book. The book contains the translations of many scholars. James M. Robinson was the editor and only his name is on the cover (of the 1984 edition).

Same Phillip but Codex II ..... Abe

I have mine in PDF :tu:

Edited by third_eye, 07 May 2013 - 08:48 AM.

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#53    Abramelin

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:02 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 07 May 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Same Phillip but Codex II ..... Abe

I have mine in PDF :tu:

I know, that's the only one in my book: Codex II.


#54    Abramelin

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:21 AM

Quote

And he kissed my mouth. He took hold of me, saying, "My beloved! Behold, I shall reveal to you
those things that (neither) the heavens nor their archons have known. Behold, I shall reveal to you
those   things   that   he   did   not   know,   he   who  boasted,   "[...]   there   is   no   other   except   me.  Am  I   not
alive?   Because   I   am   a  father,   do   I   not   have   power   for   everything?"   Behold,   I   shall   reveal   to   you
everything,   my   beloved.   Understand   and   know   them,   that   you   may   come   forth   just   as   I   am.
Behold, I  shall  reveal  to you him who  is   hidden.  But  now, stretch   out your hand.  Now, take  hold
of me."

THE (SECOND) APOCALYPSE OF JAMES
CODEX V
Translated by Charles W. Hedrick
Selection made from JamesM. Robinson, ed., The Nag Hammadi Library, revised edition. HarperCollins,San Francisco, 1990

It's a report by Mareim, priest and relative of Theuda, father of James.

And it's about James, not Jesus as far as I understand it.

From the intro: "James seems to function practically as a Gnostic redeemer".

.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 May 2013 - 09:23 AM.


#55    third_eye

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:20 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 May 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

It's a report by Mareim, priest and relative of Theuda, father of James.

And it's about James, not Jesus as far as I understand it.

From the intro: "James seems to function practically as a Gnostic redeemer".

.

Frankly Abe ... I haven't had the chance to put everything in its proper place in my notes .... and the Dead Sea Scrolls fiasco kinda put me off it a bit.
There's new updates to the translates there too, so can't say I'm on solid ground here ... but regarding the 'lips/mouth' interpretation I believe researchers are leaning towards it because 'the others found it offensive' hence ... because kissing was quite common ... feet, hands, breast, face ... but mouth or lips were of a more towards relative closeness or intimate.

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#56    Sundew

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:40 PM

View Postcatfromhell, on 21 April 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

You know the meaning of the word drivel yet you still believe in Jesus?

You can do a web search and find many educated men and women of (gasp!) science who where and are believers in God/Christ, many of which gave us the modern scientific principles that form the basis of our modern society, which we now enjoy. Perhaps you should read the very last sentence in Charles Darwin's "Origin of Species". Shocking! One should not stereotype so easily. And yes I know the meaning of "drivel" as well as the meaning of "condescension" and "tolerance", lol.


#57    DieChecker

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:49 AM

The Gospel of Philip is a gnostic gospel. It is not even written or based on the teachings of Philip. He is merely the only Apostle mentioned in the book.

Gnosticism has as much in common with modern Christianity as Mormonism does. In that it holds there is a God and that Jesus lived and died on the Cross. But the Devil is in the details and the Details of Gnosticism are not the teachings of Christianity.

Christians live in the Physical world and concentrate on the Physical, while Gnostics try to live in the Spiritual world and concentrate on the mystical.

Basically it is about as made up, according to Religious scholars, as Mormonism, IMHO. (Sorry Mormons.) It was written 200 years after Jesus and seems to not come from first hand experience, but from 200 years of Chinese Whispers....

http://en.wikipedia....ospel_of_Philip
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic
http://en.wikipedia..../Valentinianism

Edited by DieChecker, 08 May 2013 - 01:51 AM.

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#58    Supersquatch

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:08 PM

"Among mammals, a virgin birth (parthenogenesis) can only produce female offspring, for chromosomal reasons" - Frank Zindler

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#59    _Only

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:50 PM

View PostSUPERSquatch, on 08 May 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

"Among mammals, a virgin birth (parthenogenesis) can only produce female offspring, for chromosomal reasons" - Frank Zindler

Among humans, virgin births don't happen under normal scientific means, which is what the quote is referencing.

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#60    DieChecker

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:54 PM

View PostSUPERSquatch, on 08 May 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

"Among mammals, a virgin birth (parthenogenesis) can only produce female offspring, for chromosomal reasons" - Frank Zindler
I wonder what Mammals can have virgin birth? I'm not aware of any....

Looking......

Edit: According to what I've found, parthenogenesis is ONLY possible in mammals if humans intervene and force it to happen. It has never been recorded in any natural inpregnation situation.

http://en.wikipedia....Parthenogenesis

Quote

There are no known cases of naturally occurring mammalian parthenogenesis in the wild.

Edit, Edit: Anyway Jesus was a supernatural situation, and thus is outside the laws of regular parentage.

Edited by DieChecker, 08 May 2013 - 08:02 PM.

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