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The world: what went wrong?


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#106    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 05:07 PM

The world: what went wrong?

Mankind.

Do I get a cookie for the right answer?

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#107    Beany

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 08:02 PM

View Postpantodragon, on 04 May 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

You really don't understand my thinking at all, Beany, much less my motives, and that in spite of my repeated attempts to make them clear.  So, here we go again: logic is for machines.  People who have not donned the "mind-forged manacles" of rationality have much more sophisticated ways of thinking.  One aspect of this is that the emphasis is one of the ABILITIES (an ever increasing number, if your mind is still alive) required to think in ever more sophisticated ways rather than on the actual product of thinking.  It is rather like a teacher correcting a child's maths.  Any good teacher is far more concerned with the working out than with the actual answer.  Yes, I own to all your criticisms of my logic.  I am WAY beyond logic.

What you're not beyond is a mean mouth, Panto. Do you not understand that your personal attacks and the clumsy way they are constructed repel rather than instruct or inform? From a teacher perspective, what do you think people are learning from these personal attacks of yours, of your total lack of respect for those whose opinions differ from yours, of your failure to value logic and critical thinking? Who would want to take the risk of being your student?Resorting to personal attack reveals the weakness of your arguments and/or claims and the limits to your thinking. You give it your best shot and all you can come up with is name-calling? That's a bully tactic, BTW. The fact that no one shares the high opinion you have of yourself could lead you to should tell you something about yourself, but instead you believe it tells you something about others. I believe most people understand you very well, and better than you understand yourself.

Edited by Beany, 04 May 2013 - 08:10 PM.


#108    White Crane Feather

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 03:14 PM

View Postpantodragon, on 04 May 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:



Read my reply to Beany.

Let me return the compliment.  It would do you inestimable benefit (do you hear those manacles clanking?; does your nose hurt from bumping up against the walls of your cage?) to read --- note carefully that I said READ, not STUDY --- poetry and look at visual art.
Ahhh my friend, I was not trying to confine you, I was offering some advice for liberation. You are that guy that thinks he knows how to fight but cannot take his thumbs out of his fist. The traditionalist that goes to the ring with his chin up and his fist chambered at his hip. These are not insults. Given what you have told me, I thought you might understand this imagery. There are rules of engagement... You know this. It's not pentodragon against all the big bad forum bully's. In fact some of the people you don't get along with I can't stand either, and yet some of the others I consider dear friends. I have a lot of sympathy ( without agreeing with them) for your passionate ideas, and you because I happen to know very intimately how week of a root martial artists and fighters carry with them. You don't spend as much time as we have learning and practicing to dominate another physically without root issues. Trust me. Im right their with you. But only self knowledge leads to self mastery. Martial arts does this in many ways, but formal logic is thinking martial arts. It will give you the ability to analyze yourself because as long as you don't glaze over them, you will not be able to hide from your own fallacies. It will not stop you from haveing your own ideas or stifen your creativity, but it will refine them, force you to back them up instead of just whimsically bouncing things of your head and better prepare you to defend them if you are going to throw them out on a public forum.

I can see your wheels turning brother, there is not a holow man up their, but unfortunately that's all they are doing. If you want people to take you seriously ( if you care at all), especially as a leader, you are going to have to add some weight to your words. Substance, maturity, tolerance, and self reflection will carry you much further than shaking a stick at the moon.

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Bruce Lee-

#109    Sufjan

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:26 PM

Mankind went from bats to guns and from men to men.


#110    Babe Ruth

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:41 PM

Panto

Some truth is black, some truth is white.  Largely a personal choice.


#111    Beany

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:22 PM

Panto, you're going to have it your way, pretend to have knowledge of me that you don't, and call them facts. From your judgments of me it would seem I was raised at the end of a stick by a pack of wild corn dogs. All I can say is, where's the mustard?


#112    HecticSherlock

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 04:43 PM

In the words of "Mark Zuckerburg" from the movie Social Network...Have we adequately answered your
question?

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#113    Frank Merton

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:12 PM

If people weren't on this planet the struggle of evolution, with all animals living short, painful, fearful, driven lives with no point to them except procreation would just continue.  I don't thing that is what the planet is for, if it is for anything.  The idea of humanity being a blight on the planet strikes me as melodramatic at best.


#114    Sweetpumper

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:36 PM

View PostAlex Smith, on 05 May 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

Mankind went from bats to guns and from men to men.

How's your timing with Dwayne Bowe coming along?

"At it's most basic level, science is supposed to represent the investigation of the unexplained, not the explanation of the uninvestigated." - Hunt for the Skinwalker

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#115    pantodragon

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:13 PM

View PostRyn, on 06 May 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

In the words of "Mark Zuckerburg" from the movie Social Network...Have we adequately answered your
question?

Well, actually, you have, but not in the way you might think.


#116    pantodragon

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:16 PM

View PostBeany, on 05 May 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

Panto, you're going to have it your way, pretend to have knowledge of me that you don't, and call them facts. From your judgments of me it would seem I was raised at the end of a stick by a pack of wild corn dogs. All I can say is, where's the mustard?

Have you seen the film The Return of the Pnk Panther.......the character Cato? ..........He hides from Inspector Clouseau and jumps out at him when least expected.  It's a training exercise....what's your excuse?


#117    pantodragon

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:18 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 03 May 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

You say we went wrong when we set up a system that we could govern each other by. As compared to what? Anarchy? Before we set up such systems we were all hunter gatherers with 30-40 year average lifespans, is this better to you than what we have? Free market enterprise has created the largest explosion in prosperity in the entire history of the world. We have not yet discovered a system that is better in regards to raising the status of the common man than the free market, capitalist system. And yes, we in the civilized parts of the world are far less barbaric these days than we were in days of old. We no longer sacrifice people to please non-existent gods, we are no longer ruled by dictatorial kings, we have a vast population, far larger than at any other time in history yet if you consider the size of our population there is less war per person today, then there was in ages past.

Montaigne, having spoken to some of the first Native Americans to be brought to Europe, and to some of the sailors who had been to America, found much to admire in the native culture.  It appears they had exceptional good health.

“As to the rest, they live in a country very pleasant and temperate, so that, as my witnesses inform me, 'tis rare to hear of a sick person, and they moreover assure me, that they never saw any of the natives, either paralytic, blear-eyed, toothless, or crooked with age.”

They were very warrior-like but not for any gain nor any ambition to rob their neighbours of their possessions, but rather as a matter of toughness and valour.  That valour is a matter of looking after yourself, of refusing to kow-tow to anyone, and of refusing to accept a wrong without redress.  Thus, when asked what they thought of European culture, there were 2 things they found very odd: first that younger people should be dictating to older, and secondly, that the poor accepted their position and did  not rise up and kill or burn down the houses of the rich, as the following quote shows:

“They said, that in the first place they thought it very strange, that so many tall men wearing beards, strong, and well armed, who were about the king ('tis like they meant the Swiss of his guard) should submit to obey a child, and that they did not rather choose out one among themselves to command. Secondly (they have a way of speaking in their language, to call men the half of one another), that they had observed, that there were among us men full and crammed with all manner of commodities, while, in the meantime, their halves were begging at their doors, lean, and half-starved with hunger and poverty; and they thought it strange that these necessitous halves were able to suffer so great an inequality and injustice, and that they did not take the others by the throats, or set fire to their houses.”

It seems to me that there have been other cultures at other times where life may well have been a great deal better in terms of health, equality and freedom that our lives are.


#118    pantodragon

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:20 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 03 May 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:


Yes I know full well the definition of anarchy. However, anarchy has never existed for long historically. It is always a transition state until the group/person with the biggest stick takes control over society. The anarchist utopia you speak of has never existed and there is no reason to think it ever could exist.



Anarchy has thus far never been successful because people are addicted to power. This is not a necessary condition. It is not a healthy condition. It is an addiction, with all addiction’s attendant wrongs. Kick the addiction and anarchy becomes Utopia.


Quote

The 'economic depression of recent' that you speak of, the poverty people in this country are experiencing. Is not even CLOSE to the kind of poverty and depression, hunger, hopelessness that people experience all over the globe in various communist and dictatorial regimes. History is absolutely crystal clear. The best way to elevate the common man and get rid of abject poverty is the free market capitalist system. Poverty today is like living the high life 100 years ago. Now THAT is progress.

There speaks somebody who has never been really poor. But I might ask: which kind of poverty are you talking about? The dosser in a cardboard box under a bridge, the council estate family, the retired couple who find their pension does not give them the lifestyle to which they had been accustomed, though that had been modest enough,………? And then, there is the poverty of the materially wealthy, which is probably the worst poverty of all --- poverty of the mind; you get wealthy by pursuing power but by pursuing power you loose everything but power, and loose any ability to enjoy anything other than the drug, and turn your mind into a wasteland --- again this is easy to see if you think of addiction such as herion because the psychological effects are much the same. So, the power addict is not different from the opium addicts familiar from earlier Chinese culture, wealthy people living out their lives in opium dens and caring for nothing.

View PostEinsteinium, on 03 May 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

Yup, I agree, give freedom to the common man. But that is NOT anarchy. Freedom requires that the rights of one person is no greater than the rights of another. Anarchy would mean that so long as you had the power, you could kill me, and there would be no recourse, or enslave me. A true free system is not anarchy, but a system like the one the founders intended the US system to be. A system with laws protecting the freedom of each person, and a govt. to enforce those laws. Anarchy would not have that, anarchy would, as it always has been in the short times when it has existed, be chaos for the short time in which it existed.

You are talking about a world where people are addicted to power and are therefore competitive.  The natural world is not competitive (in spite of what scientists may claim --- I have talked elsewhere about how people see only reflections of themselves when they look at the world or other people) but rather is cooperative.  Give up power and human beings are naturally cooperative and as such, have no need of any laws whatsoever.


#119    pantodragon

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:22 PM

View PostBeany, on 04 May 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

  Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King, Jr., Gandhi, the Peace Pilgrim, Helen Pre-Jean, Jesus, Buddha, Rosa Parks, Abraham Lincoln, Rachel Carson, the Dalai Lama, were or are all do-gooders. Do you actually believe that their sole motivation was that of self-aggrandizement?

Yes, I do.  The very fact that you know their names speaks volumes.  The real do-gooders are people you have never heard of because the only way you can really do good is quietly.  For example: typically in our society, the boss of a business makes himself indispensable.  When he dies the company has trouble.  Even when he goes on holiday he has to take his laptop/mobile so that he can be contacted.  A good company boss would not be missed.  A good company boss makes very sure that that company in no way depends on him.  A good company boss gives credit and pride to the workers by standing back in the shadows.  All the people you mentioned above were crucial to the organisations they were head of.

For example, Gandhi induced Muslims and Hindus to stop fighting by starving himself.  What then happens when he is not there? --- all the bad feeling then bubbles up and spills out and is the worse for having been suppressed.  Just because Gandhi wore a little loin cloth did not mean he was humble; he merely wore a loin cloth to pretend humility and grab the moral high ground.  The way he behaved towards Jinna and other opposition showed arrogance in the extreme.  He was rude, interfering and much besides.  But by making himself indispensable to his cause, he made himself powerful and ensured his place in Indian government.  I remember hearing once an old Indian who had been around at the time, recalling hearing Neru, Gandhi and the rest discussing how India would be carved up and ruled after the British left.  He recalled how they sounded like gleeful little boys having a whale of a time.  That’s Gandhi.

As for Mother Teresa, she saw fit to split off from the order and start her own order of nuns with its own design of robes.  You always knew it was Mother Teresa from the bits of blue on her robes --- she made sure she stood out and was known.

I have met Tibetans both in and out of Tibet.  They typically display a childlike innocence and charm, as does the Dalai Lama, which is a veneer hiding something much nastier underneath.  I have experienced that unpleasant side and how the charm fools people into letting the Tibetans get away with it.  I also recall that when Tibet was an independent country, it was known for its viciousness towards foreigners.  If you were foolish enough to venture in, you were extremely lucky to come out alive.

Nelson Mandela is not on your list, but he is generally considered to be up there with Dr King et al.  What did he do as soon as he became president of South Africa?  In order to put South Africa on the “World Stage” (with him as president, of course) he decided that the Springbok rugby team were going to win the rugby world cup which was being held in SA.  The Springboks were a white team and Mandela had to persuade the blacks to support them.  He did this in the time honoured fashion of leaders.  To “unite” the white and black population, he created a common enemy, one external to SA --- in this case the rest of the world and their rugby teams.  And what happens when, after the euphoria of winning the world cup subsided and there was no longer a common enemy to “unite” the blacks and whites?  Do you think SA’s problems were suddenly resolved?  Of course they were not.  But Mandela got South Africa on the World Stage, with him as star player.  This is about power.

As to Mandela’s Truth and Reconciliation circus with which his name is indelibly linked for “tolerance” and “forgiveness” and for which he is most remembered --- there is nothing benign about publicly humiliating people.  In fact, it is a warrior strategy whereby captives are brought back to camp, stripped bare and humiliated i.e. tortured, before execution.  (There were no executions in SA, I believe, but the T&R trials involved a sort of psychological “execution”.)   The result is that the black spectators like their ancestors dancing round the naked captive are whipped into a frenzy, a bloodlust, while the whites experience suppressed anger, frustration and resentment: a volcano waiting to erupt.


They’re all the same, these people you have mentioned: it’s about power, it’s about self-aggrandizement.  You just have to look below the surface and look past the hype.

You named these icons as though their worth is unquestionable, but you speak from a very Christian ethic.  There are many besides myself who would also disagree with you; people from other cultures, but also many philosophers, starting with Aristotle.  Aristotle preached the Golden Mean.  He reckoned that anything, even virtues, taken to excess, became vices.  So, he would certainly have considered Mother Teresa, Gandhi and the like to have strayed beyond the bounds of virtue and into the territory of vice, though he may have allowed the likes of the Dalai Lama to be virtuous.


#120    pantodragon

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:25 PM

View PostHeaven Is A Halfpipe, on 04 May 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

The world: what went wrong?

Mankind.

Do I get a cookie for the right answer?

No, 'cos that's the wrong answer.





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