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The world: what went wrong?


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#76    Emma_Acid

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 02:31 PM

View Postpantodragon, on 02 May 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

The question then is: what do the do-gooders hope to get out of Doing Good?  Do they help the needy out of a sense of compassion and the inestimable worth of the less fortunate?  No.  Pull the other one, it’s got bells on!!!!!  What they get out of Doing Good is a chance to lord it over the “less fortunate” then give themselves a very public pat on the back for being so compassionate, cooperative, forgiving etc, that’s what.  This is profiteering with knobs on.  It’s about scoring points

Unfortunately, I don't think everyone has the same image in their heads of you that you do. You might think you're coming across as some forum-based revolutionary lightening strike to the rotten heart of society, but actually just reads like a rather sad and bitter person with far too much time on their hands.

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#77    mike72

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 02:47 PM

View Postpantodragon, on 22 April 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

Cool?  Do you not feel the flames of hell licking your backside yet?


What do you think has been keep me warm this past winter, LOL


#78    Beany

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:18 AM

View Postpantodragon, on 02 May 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:


So, Beany, you “love this planet”, “find beauty every day”, and “causes for joy, happiness, contentment, appreciation, gratitude”.

Yet you say that in your community people are starving.  Where exactly, Beany, is the beauty in that?

In your community you have specialist farmers selling organic produce (because “ordinary” farmers sell food contaminated with chemicals).  Are you telling me, Beany, that you experience happiness because some profiteering farmers have spotted a business opportunity and are making a killing from it?

Nature conservancies are purchasing land to turn into preserves. You find joy and happiness in the fact that the environment is being laid waste, devastated, destroyed, such that preserves are necessary to protect the rest from the same fate?

In your community, low-income families need help to build their own homes.  So, you find the appalling living conditions of the poor to be a source of contentment, do you?

………………..I could go on, but you get my point, right?

In fact, if there wasn’t all this misery in the world, all those do-gooders you describe would be out of a job, and then where would they be?!!??!!  After all, it would be SUCH an inconvenience for them to be forced to find another occupation.


I watched the film Legend of the Fall last night.  In it, Major Ludlow received a visit from his son accompanied by an entourage of business men.  The major’s son had come to tell his father that he was running for political office.  The business men were his supporters.  The major’s response was to ask the entourage:  “And what do you gentlemen hope to get out of this?”   When his son protested at the accusation, his father’s angry rejoinder was: “Do you think these men back you out of a sense of patriotic duty and your own inestimable worth?”

The question then is: what do the do-gooders hope to get out of Doing Good?  Do they help the needy out of a sense of compassion and the inestimable worth of the less fortunate?  No.  Pull the other one, it’s got bells on!!!!!  What they get out of Doing Good is a chance to lord it over the “less fortunate” then give themselves a very public pat on the back for being so compassionate, cooperative, forgiving etc, that’s what.  This is profiteering with knobs on.  It’s about scoring points.

By your own admission, Beany, you are one of those do-gooders.  The heartwarming confession that you derive such happiness, joy, gratitude, appreciation even, out of the misfortunes of others warms the very cockles of my heart, so it does.




This REEKS of self-satisfaction.  Better be careful, someone might join this forum who knew you as a child.

This is a personal attack, Panto, and inappropriate.


#79    Beany

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:37 AM

View Postpantodragon, on 02 May 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

So, Beany, you “love this planet”, “find beauty every day”, and “causes for joy, happiness, contentment, appreciation, gratitude”.

Yet you say that in your community people are starving.  Where exactly, Beany, is the beauty in that?

In your community you have specialist farmers selling organic produce (because “ordinary” farmers sell food contaminated with chemicals).  Are you telling me, Beany, that you experience happiness because some profiteering farmers have spotted a business opportunity and are making a killing from it?

Nature conservancies are purchasing land to turn into preserves. You find joy and happiness in the fact that the environment is being laid waste, devastated, destroyed, such that preserves are necessary to protect the rest from the same fate?

In your community, low-income families need help to build their own homes.  So, you find the appalling living conditions of the poor to be a source of contentment, do you?

………………..I could go on, but you get my point, right?

In fact, if there wasn’t all this misery in the world, all those do-gooders you describe would be out of a job, and then where would they be?!!??!!  After all, it would be SUCH an inconvenience for them to be forced to find another occupation.


I watched the film Legend of the Fall last night.  In it, Major Ludlow received a visit from his son accompanied by an entourage of business men.  The major’s son had come to tell his father that he was running for political office.  The business men were his supporters.  The major’s response was to ask the entourage:  “And what do you gentlemen hope to get out of this?”   When his son protested at the accusation, his father’s angry rejoinder was: “Do you think these men back you out of a sense of patriotic duty and your own inestimable worth?”

The question then is: what do the do-gooders hope to get out of Doing Good?  Do they help the needy out of a sense of compassion and the inestimable worth of the less fortunate?  No.  Pull the other one, it’s got bells on!!!!!  What they get out of Doing Good is a chance to lord it over the “less fortunate” then give themselves a very public pat on the back for being so compassionate, cooperative, forgiving etc, that’s what.  This is profiteering with knobs on.  It’s about scoring points.

By your own admission, Beany, you are one of those do-gooders.  The heartwarming confession that you derive such happiness, joy, gratitude, appreciation even, out of the misfortunes of others warms the very cockles of my heart, so it does.




This REEKS of self-satisfaction.  Better be careful, someone might join this forum who knew you as a child.

The flaw in your critical thinking is the conclusion that because poverty, hunger, crime, etc., exists, nothing else does exist, or anything of equal value. The errors in your critical thinking include ad hominem, ad populum, straw man, selective validition, and affirming the consequent. Gonna launch another personal attack on me, Panto? That would be another fallacious ad hominem argument.

Edited by Beany, 03 May 2013 - 02:38 AM.


#80    White Crane Feather

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 06:08 AM

View PostBeany, on 03 May 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:



The flaw in your critical thinking is the conclusion that because poverty, hunger, crime, etc., exists, nothing else does exist, or anything of equal value. The errors in your critical thinking include ad hominem, ad populum, straw man, selective validition, and affirming the consequent. Gonna launch another personal attack on me, Panto? That would be another fallacious ad hominem argument.
I tried to get him to study formal logic. :( no luck I guess.

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#81    HecticSherlock

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:11 PM

We went wrong when we as a nation and as a people...a world even, set up a system that we could govern each other by. Whether it's religion, democracy, communism, or even belief; there is some system that one abides by and tries to conduct themselves under. I mean even though it pulled us out of an "barbaric age", did it really make us any less..barbaric?

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#82    Einsteinium

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:32 PM

View PostRyn, on 03 May 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

We went wrong when we as a nation and as a people...a world even, set up a system that we could govern each other by. Whether it's religion, democracy, communism, or even belief; there is some system that one abides by and tries to conduct themselves under. I mean even though it pulled us out of an "barbaric age", did it really make us any less..barbaric?

You say we went wrong when we set up a system that we could govern each other by. As compared to what? Anarchy? Before we set up such systems we were all hunter gatherers with 30-40 year average lifespans, is this better to you than what we have? Free market enterprise has created the largest explosion in prosperity in the entire history of the world. We have not yet discovered a system that is better in regards to raising the status of the common man than the free market, capitalist system. And yes, we in the civilized parts of the world are far less barbaric these days than we were in days of old. We no longer sacrifice people to please non-existent gods, we are no longer ruled by dictatorial kings, we have a vast population, far larger than at any other time in history yet if you consider the size of our population there is less war per person today, then there was in ages past.

Edited by Einsteinium, 03 May 2013 - 05:32 PM.


#83    HecticSherlock

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 07:01 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 03 May 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

You say we went wrong when we set up a system that we could govern each other by. As compared to what? Anarchy? Before we set up such systems we were all hunter gatherers with 30-40 year average lifespans, is this better to you than what we have? Free market enterprise has created the largest explosion in prosperity in the entire history of the world. We have not yet discovered a system that is better in regards to raising the status of the common man than the free market, capitalist system. And yes, we in the civilized parts of the world are far less barbaric these days than we were in days of old. We no longer sacrifice people to please non-existent gods, we are no longer ruled by dictatorial kings, we have a vast population, far larger than at any other time in history yet if you consider the size of our population there is less war per person today, then there was in ages past.

Alright, let's break down all that you have said, piece by piece. First off Anarchy, do you know the definition of it? Allow me...
a : absence of government  
b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority  
c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
And so, is anarchy necessarily a bad thing ? I think not..
Explosion in prosperity??? Is that what you call our economic depression of recent!? Or you blind or completely mad man!?
The 3rd is a given..to some extent..
Ha! So to whom do we send soldiers out to sea and across continents to fight foreigners in the name of?? Oh, that's what I thought.

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#84    freetoroam

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 07:26 PM

View Postpantodragon, on 02 May 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:


So, Beany, you “love this planet”, “find beauty every day”, and “causes for joy, happiness, contentment, appreciation, gratitude”.

Yet you say that in your community people are starving.  Where exactly, Beany, is the beauty in that?

In your community you have specialist farmers selling organic produce (because “ordinary” farmers sell food contaminated with chemicals).  Are you telling me, Beany, that you experience happiness because some profiteering farmers have spotted a business opportunity and are making a killing from it?

Nature conservancies are purchasing land to turn into preserves. You find joy and happiness in the fact that the environment is being laid waste, devastated, destroyed, such that preserves are necessary to protect the rest from the same fate?

In your community, low-income families need help to build their own homes.  So, you find the appalling living conditions of the poor to be a source of contentment, do you?

………………..I could go on, but you get my point, right?

In fact, if there wasn’t all this misery in the world, all those do-gooders you describe would be out of a job, and then where would they be?!!??!!  After all, it would be SUCH an inconvenience for them to be forced to find another occupation.



@Beany, sorry to say this, but Pansdragon has got a point here.


#85    Einsteinium

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 07:31 PM

View PostRyn, on 03 May 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

Alright, let's break down all that you have said, piece by piece. First off Anarchy, do you know the definition of it? Allow me...
a : absence of government  
b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority  
c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
And so, is anarchy necessarily a bad thing ? I think not..
Explosion in prosperity??? Is that what you call our economic depression of recent!? Or you blind or completely mad man!?
The 3rd is a given..to some extent..
Ha! So to whom do we send soldiers out to sea and across continents to fight foreigners in the name of?? Oh, that's what I thought.

Lets break down what you have said.

Yes I know full well the definition of anarchy. However, anarchy has never existed for long historically. It is always a transition state until the group/person with the biggest stick takes control over society. The anarchist utopia you speak of has never existed and there is no reason to think it ever could exist.

The 'economic depression of recent' that you speak of, the poverty people in this country are experiencing. Is not even CLOSE to the kind of poverty and depression, hunger, hopelessness that people experience all over the globe in various communist and dictatorial regimes. History is absolutely crystal clear. The best way to elevate the common man and get rid of abject poverty is the free market capitalist system. Poverty today is like living the high life 100 years ago. Now THAT is progress.


#86    HecticSherlock

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 07:38 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 03 May 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

Lets break down what you have said.

Yes I know full well the definition of anarchy. However, anarchy has never existed for long historically. It is always a transition state until the group/person with the biggest stick takes control over society. The anarchist utopia you speak of has never existed and there is no reason to think it ever could exist.

The 'economic depression of recent' that you speak of, the poverty people in this country are experiencing. Is not even CLOSE to the kind of poverty and depression, hunger, hopelessness that people experience all over the globe in various communist and dictatorial regimes. History is absolutely crystal clear. The best way to elevate the common man and get rid of abject poverty is the free market capitalist system. Poverty today is like living the high life 100 years ago. Now THAT is progress.

Who to say that state we all live in now is not anarchy? Furthermore you only go on to back-up my original point..." Is not even CLOSE to the kind of poverty and depression, hunger, hopelessness that people experience all over the globe in various communist and dictatorial regimes." Like I said, when we created the system, we single handedly gave ourselves the power to put ourselves and to allow others to put others in those types of conditions. History is crystal clear, and because of that it tends to repeat itself because we are lead by a bunch of followers who know no better. Want to elevate the common man? Allow him freedom, freedom from all things that bear him down..a little anarchy if you will..

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#87    Einsteinium

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 07:44 PM

View PostRyn, on 03 May 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

Who to say that state we all live in now is not anarchy? Furthermore you only go on to back-up my original point..." Is not even CLOSE to the kind of poverty and depression, hunger, hopelessness that people experience all over the globe in various communist and dictatorial regimes." Like I said, when we created the system, we single handedly gave ourselves the power to put ourselves and to allow others to put others in those types of conditions. History is crystal clear, and because of that it tends to repeat itself because we are lead by a bunch of followers who know no better. Want to elevate the common man? Allow him freedom, freedom from all things that bear him down..a little anarchy if you will..

Yup, I agree, give freedom to the common man. But that is NOT anarchy. Freedom requires that the rights of one person is no greater than the rights of another. Anarchy would mean that so long as you had the power, you could kill me, and there would be no recourse, or enslave me. A true free system is not anarchy, but a system like the one the founders intended the US system to be. A system with laws protecting the freedom of each person, and a govt. to enforce those laws. Anarchy would not have that, anarchy would, as it always has been in the short times when it has existed, be chaos for the short time in which it existed.


#88    HecticSherlock

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 07:59 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 03 May 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

Yup, I agree, give freedom to the common man. But that is NOT anarchy. Freedom requires that the rights of one person is no greater than the rights of another. Anarchy would mean that so long as you had the power, you could kill me, and there would be no recourse, or enslave me. A true free system is not anarchy, but a system like the one the founders intended the US system to be. A system with laws protecting the freedom of each person, and a govt. to enforce those laws. Anarchy would not have that, anarchy would, as it always has been in the short times when it has existed, be chaos for the short time in which it existed.
Your idea of a system is obviously that of an Utopia, nothing compared to what we have today. And sadly, we never will have it..

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#89    Quaentum

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 08:00 PM

View Postpantodragon, on 22 April 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

I have been accused on many forums of having a very black view of the world.  The truth is blacker.  Much blacker.  The truth is apocalypse.  The full biblical horror.




Enjoy the apocalypse.


I seem to remember that the 4 horsemen cause the death of a fourth of the population.  So when 1 Billion 750 Million people die, come back and show us that you were right

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#90    Einsteinium

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 08:09 PM

View PostRyn, on 03 May 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

Your idea of a system is obviously that of an Utopia, nothing compared to what we have today. And sadly, we never will have it..

Where do you get that out of my posts? I do not believe in Utopia, I do not think Utopia is a real possibility- I think it is simply just fantasy. That is my point. We must look at history to see what the best system is, learn from history as to what can be improved on, and move forward. People will be left behind, people will suffer, people will die. There will be war. People will not agree. It will be hard. But we have no other options except to keep moving forward and learn from the past as best we can. I think that govt. regulations have been manipulated to favor the big guy over the little guy. Which is wrong, but guess what? We allowed it to happen, the failure is ultimately on all of the citizens.





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