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Croatians attempt to supress minority rights


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#91    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:20 PM

Add freely, under only one condition – it must be true and proven fact – what Croats did too.

Serbia bombed Croatia sadistically, with everything JNA accumulated for half a century. While no Croatian bomb fell on Serbian soil. Where’s “too”?

Croatia stopped on the internationally recognized border. No square inch of Serbia was invaded or claimed by Croatia. Croats did not believe previous war gives them right to retaliate on hospitals and theatres. “Too”? No too.

Chetniks and JNA left uncharted mine fields in all territories they occupied. Note that I don’t even complain they left mine fields, I complain they didn’t make charts, so we have outrageous expenses and losses trying to get rid of that plague. How many mine fields in Serbia? Too? None?
And so on and on...

In short, Croatia did not attack Serbia. No offence to Serbs, I bet they like their country and it’s one fine land, but Croats are not interested in annexing it.  

Serbia did attack Croatia with intention to ethnically cleanse and annex Croatian land. It’s not even a problem for their nationalists, who still scream about uniting what they phantasise are "all Serbian lands", their problem is that they lost all wars they started. They keep failing without big players installing them in power.
So they failed in Croatia, and then they fled, but not before they threw cluster bombs at ballerinas and hospitalized children. I kid you not, it was particularly dangerous to live near: hospitals, libraries, theatres, museums and schools. These were favourite targets of JNA and chetniks.

Lasting peace may come to Southern Slavs, but it cannot come through continuation of aggressor’s Greater Serbian politics.
It wouldn’t be lasting peace, it would be another Greater Serbian travesty.

What you, Britney, offered here was set of grave insults in form of imaginary collective guilt, history twisted beyond recognition and Greater Serbian patronizing.
I find it insulting to no end but I’m at the same time grateful for the warning posted here for all to see:

Milošević is dead, Yugoslavia is dead, but the ideology with the same old tricks is still alive and kicking.
The good news for Croats is that tricks are the same, so no matter how repulsively tiresome and annoying they are, at least we know what to expect.

Croatia will continue to guarantee minority rights, for all minorities, not only Croatian Serbs, because firstly, minorities are integral part of our society.
Second, so that it becomes more visible it’s the small portion of Serbs (mostly those with interesting political platforms) that feel chronically endangered and no one else. Sooner or later, people starts wondering how’s that possible.
And thirdly, so that Serbia may look up to us as an example on her looooong, looooong way to EU.

So one day we may meet in EU, together with Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Kosovo and Macedonia, but we will never, ever meet in Yugoslavia again.

Because log, speck, eye.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 30 April 2013 - 11:22 PM.

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#92    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 09:41 PM

Britney you dont have a clue what you talking about when you spoke about Ante Starčević.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#93    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 09:51 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 29 April 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Hitler was an Austrian catholic, Goebbels was a Catholic, Goring was a Bavarian, though I do not know if he was Catholic. Himmler was a Catholic from Munich. Hess, though a protestant, was another Bavarian.

Again you show minor knowledge in history. They were not chatolics. They might born in Chatolic families.
If you know what is Gestapo and their history you will know that they have special orders to kill on sights Jesuits. In 1939 Jesuit headquarter was closed by Nazists.
Those who were not killed end up in Holocaust.

Hitler could call himself Budhist but I would not trust him.
Do you see similarites in ideology of Jesus and Hitler? I dont. If you do please let me know about it.

Nazism have more with ancient Greeks and Norse/German mythology and some USA maniacs then with Chatolicism.

Edited by the L, 01 May 2013 - 09:57 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#94    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 10:21 PM

View Postthe L, on 01 May 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

Again you show minor knowledge in history. They were not chatolics. They might born in Chatolic families.
If you know what is Gestapo and their history you will know that they have special orders to kill on sights Jesuits. In 1939 Jesuit headquarter was closed by Nazists.
Those who were not killed end up in Holocaust.

Hitler could call himself Budhist but I would not trust him.
Do you see similarites in ideology of Jesus and Hitler? I dont. If you do please let me know about it.

Nazism have more with ancient Greeks and Norse/German mythology and some USA maniacs then with Chatolicism.
I have left this thread!! But it does not alter the fact that nazi leaders were mostly Catholics from Bavaria. You and anybody may obfuscate and twist in the wind all you like, but it will not alter reality. Majority nazi leadership were born and raised as Catholics, not Protestants from North and Eastern germany, not Orthodox, not Budhists, not pagans, not animists, not American fundamentalists, not Muslims. They were born and raised as Catholics. An uncomfortable truth for some of you, but I simply DO NOT CARE ANYMORE. Proschai proschai..........

Perhaps people should read my posts and not make up garbage as is mostly the case Posted Image

and again Posted Image

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#95    Spiral staircase

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 06:14 AM

View Postthe L, on 01 May 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

Britney you dont have a clue what you talking about when you spoke about Ante Starčević.

History says otherwise. Provide sources from an academic and unbaised source if you can, if you have a different narrative to present.

Simply claiming someone is uninformed in their discussion will not prove much unfortunately.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 02 May 2013 - 06:16 AM.


#96    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 06:33 AM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 01 May 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

I have left this thread!! But it does not alter the fact that nazi leaders were mostly Catholics from Bavaria. You and anybody may obfuscate and twist in the wind all you like, but it will not alter reality. Majority nazi leadership were born and raised as Catholics, not Protestants from North and Eastern germany, not Orthodox, not Budhists, not pagans, not animists, not American fundamentalists, not Muslims. They were born and raised as Catholics. An uncomfortable truth for some of you, but I simply DO NOT CARE ANYMORE. Proschai proschai..........

Perhaps people should read my posts and not make up garbage as is mostly the case Posted Image

and again Posted Image

Do not disturb me again!
Proschai!

Okay I will. Just a small note.

"To remain ignorant on past events is to remain a child." Cicero.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#97    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 06:35 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 02 May 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

History says otherwise. Provide sources from an academic and unbaised source if you can, if you have a different narrative to present.

Simply claiming someone is uninformed in their discussion will not prove much unfortunately.

Britney you dont know what history say.

Ante Starčević is icon for resistance to serb hegemony.

Please Britney. You need to read a lot of books before you can speak about Croatia-Serbia realations.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#98    Hrvatica

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:34 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 02 May 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

History says otherwise. Provide sources from an academic and unbaised source if you can, if you have a different narrative to present.

Simply claiming someone is uninformed in their discussion will not prove much unfortunately.

For a reasonably unbiased account of Starcevic, check out Vaso Bogdanov, Ante Starcevic i Hrvatska politika (Zagreb, 1937) and Marjana Gross Izvorno pravastvo: Ideologija, agitacija, pokret (Zagreb, 2000). While he was certainly a racist and an anti-Semite, Starcevic was also a 19th century liberal who believed in equal civil rights regardless of ethinicity or gender, including female suffrage, and he believed in secularism. I can understand why he would be a controvertial figure, but to say that putting him on our money is the same as putting Hitler on it is a rediculious exaggeration; a bit like saying that Serbia putting Vuk Karadzic on its money is the same as putting Stevan Moljevic on its currency.


#99    Spiral staircase

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:39 AM

Quote

Ustasha Movement 1929-1945, Axis-sponsored extreme nationalist movement that ruled Croatia during World War II. A violent fascist, anti-Serbian, anti-communist, and anti-Semitic group descended from Josip Frank's Pure Party of Right, itself formed in 1895 as an offshoot of Ante Starcevic's Party of Right...

Encyclopedia of Nationalism, Two-Volume Set, Volume 2; published by Academic Press; Library of Congress Catalog Car Number: 00-102545

Quote

Academic Press is an academic book publisher. Originally independent, it was acquired by Harcourt, Brace & World in 1969. Reed Elsevier bought Harcourt in 2000, and Academic Press is now an imprint of Elsevier.

Quote

Elsevier B.V. is a publishing company which publishes medical and scientific literature.

Quote

In neighboring Croatia the murderous racism of the Ustasa state of World War II had by no means been extinguished in the nearly fifty years separating it from the newly free Croatia. President Tudjman himself apparently embodies some of the xenophobic, anti-Semitic propensities of his predecessors. So do many members of his ruling Croatian Democratic Party. To the right of it, the Croatian Party of Historic Rights, the new expression of the Starcevic-Frank-Ante Pavelic tradition, is impregnated with anti-Semitism.

Hopes and Shadows: Eastern Europe After Communism By J. F. Brown; published by Duke Univeristy Press; also published in the Cambridge Journals Online by the Cambridge University Press;

Quote

Duke University Press is an academic publisher of books and journals, and a unit of Duke University.

Quote

Nazi racist ideas infected the extremist nationalists of many countries, and the Ustasa movement in Croatia became obsessed with cleansing Croatia of those whome they considered their ethnic rivals, particularly Serbs, Jews, and Roma. Building on politics of the Croatian Party of Rights and the ideas of Ante Starcevic, a nineteenth-century Croat ideologue, Ante Pavelic spearheaded the Ustase movement, which was based on the racist ideas of Croat superiority and Serb inferiority, and he did so while he and many of his followers were still in exile in Italy and Hungary due to their terrorist activities. The Ustase movement's aim was to destroy the Yugoslav state in order to create a Croatian state.

<snip>

The Ustase targeted their hatred at Jews, whom they believed to be biologically different (and intent on taking over the world); the Roma, whom they simply considered subhuman; and the Serbs, whom they considered culturally and even biologically inferior to Croats and alleged opressors of the Croats, threatening their very survival.

Balkan Genocides: Holocaust and Ethnic Cleansing in the 20th Century by Paul Mozjes; published by Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, Inc.

Quote

Rowman & Littlefield Publishing Group is an independent publishing house founded in 1949. Under several imprints, the company offers scholarly books and journals for the academic market, as well as trade books.

Notice how the green and purple ideas have been shared with us, more than once, in this very thread, some in the form of taunts. Below are just two of the most recent examples. Funny how old ideas seem to live on. But we all know they are dying and a united Europe will see the end to them at last. Hope is for the younger generations who are willing to leave the ignorance of their parents behind.

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 30 April 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

Milošević is dead, Yugoslavia is dead, but the ideology with the same old tricks is still alive and kicking.
The good news for Croats is that tricks are the same, so no matter how repulsively tiresome and annoying they are, at least we know what to expect.

Croatia will continue to guarantee minority rights, for all minorities, not only Croatian Serbs, because firstly, minorities are integral part of our society.
Second, so that it becomes more visible it’s the small portion of Serbs (mostly those with interesting political platforms) that feel chronically endangered and no one else. Sooner or later, people starts wondering how’s that possible.
And thirdly, so that Serbia may look up to us as an example on her looooong, looooong way to EU.

So one day we may meet in EU, together with Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Kosovo and Macedonia, but we will never, ever meet in Yugoslavia again.

View Postthe L, on 02 May 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Britney you dont know what history say.

Ante Starčević is icon for resistance to serb hegemony.

Please Britney. You need to read a lot of books before you can speak about Croatia-Serbia realations.

Speaking of books, the general reader is going to trust in them when they come from academia. Anyone can make claims but where are your sources?

It also looks like some of the Ustasha's plans were achieved.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 02 May 2013 - 08:00 AM.


#100    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:43 AM

Do you know what post hoc(latin. after another) mistake is? Obviously those "historians" you quoted dont.
Let me explain you. One event that happened before , we wrongly conclude that one event is cause of another event.

You are hilarious.
Why dont you tell us how "civilized" Serbs killed him?

Edited by the L, 02 May 2013 - 07:44 AM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#101    Spiral staircase

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:16 AM

The Archbishop of Zagreb, Cardinal Josip Bozanic this week used his platform to deliver a sermon that was in favor of keeping Vukovar's public signs Cryllic-free.

Croatia Cardinal Bozanic nixes bilingualism in Vukovar

Sadly the modern Catholic Church has come out in favor of denying the rights of minorities in a 21st century Europe. How little changes.

At least change does come, no matter how slowly. To his favor at least Cardinal Bozanic did come out previously and recognize the crimes of Croatian people and members of the Catholic Church even if he did not apologize and tried to clear the Church itself of any collaboration with the Nazis in WWII. He instead tries to compare the communists with Nazis (fair call), but the communists he tries to put down are the Partisans...who helped stopped the fascist Ustasha that his church supported (not a fair call).

Quote

Cardinal Josip Bozanic defended the church during the visit to the town of Jasenovac, site of the camp known as Croatia's Auschwitz, some 100 kilometers (60 miles) southeast of Zagreb.

The camp was set up in mid-1941 by Croatia's pro-Nazi Ustasha regime and countless Serbs, Jews, Roma and anti-fascist Croatians perished there.

"Here in Jasenovac we feel a deep pain due to all the victims, especially those who suffered and were killed here by Croatian people and notably by members of the Catholic Church," he said in a sermon at a local church.

"We are not coming (to Jasenovac) to apologize, to try to justify ... although some are still seeking it from us," Bozanic stressed.

"Although we recognize the sin of those who unworthily bore the Catholic name, the Catholic Church never took part or supported those crimes," he added.

The cardinal said that "representatives of the Church and its believers ... opposed inhuman ideology targeting notably members of the Jewish and Serbian people, Roma and Croat political opponents."

The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum estimates that 100,000 people died in Jasenovac while the Serbs put the figure at 700,000.

Every year Jasenovac hosts a memorial ceremony and a multi-denominational religious service for its victims. Although Catholic priests take part in the ceremonies, a Catholic Church head has never visited the site.

Critics accuse the church and the country's World War II Cardinal Alojzije Stepinac of collaborating with the Ustasha regime, despite being aware of the genocide.

They also warn against its current tolerance of displays in the country of pro-Nazi symbols and insignia.

Stepinac died under house arrest in 1960, after being jailed by the communist authorities for collaboration with the Ustasha regime. The late pope John Paul II beatified him during his visit to Croatia in 1998.

In Jasenovac, Bozanic defended Stepinac and criticized the communist authorities saying their "inhumanity compares with that of the Nazis."

"From this place we also cry out for the truth on the victims of the communist regime since unfortunately, the crimes of communism ... are still being kept in secret, hidden and denied," he said.

Croatian Serb leader Milorad Pupovac said he was "disappointed" with Bozanic's message.

The Serbs expected an "unambiguous and undoubted message of respect towards the victims," Pupovac stressed.

http://www.eurojewco...azi-regime.html

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 02 May 2013 - 08:35 AM.


#102    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:21 AM

Britney,

how Starčević died? o.O

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#103    Spiral staircase

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:33 AM

The floor is yours L.

I am still prepping the post I want to do on the history of the Cyrllic/Latin dvide.


#104    Glenville86

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 01:59 PM

Another LBA thread to avoid. Later.


#105    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 03:49 PM

Since “Leave Britney alone!” has claimed the following:
Vatican conspiracy brought Yugoslavia down, and it was done by Croats who were all Nazis, even those who were anti-fascist (!),
since “LBA” obviously does not accept the fact that Croatia is an independent, internationally recognized country and since he is obviously extremelly biased against Croats, and he is openly agitating using Greater Serbian extremist sources,  
this thread should be at least moved to Conspiracy section (Vatican conspiracy), or History (LBA would like to elaborate on history of scripts), or, which would be the best, closed on grounds of LBA’s clear and extremely offensive anti-Croat chauvinism and WWII revisionism.

Posted Image

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