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The Woman clothed with the Sun...

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#76    Irrelevant

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 01:06 PM

View PostJor-el, on 28 April 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:



John 1:19-27

John the Baptist Denies Being the Messiah

19 Now this was John’s testimony when the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20 He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Messiah.”
21 They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?”
He said, “I am not.”
“Are you the Prophet?”
He answered, “No.”
22 Finally they said, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”
23 John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’”
24 Now the Pharisees who had been sent 25 questioned him, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”
26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know. 27 He is the one who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”

Do you know why he denied that he was Elijah?

His answer in the last line tells us why. His only calling and ministry was to prepare the way of the one who would come after him. This imagery is absolutely clear to the Jews who were questioning him, he is taking on the mantle of Elijah without calling himself Elijah. They understood this because that was indeed their expectation. They expected Elijah to announce the coming of the Messiah.

As I said earlier, he worked on their expectations but not once is Elijah supposed to announce the coming of the Messiah. There is not a single verse in the bible that defends this idea. So where did the Jews get the idea from?

They got it from a verse I quoted earlier but will copy paste here so that you can see it again and realize its importance and that John the Baptist did nothing in denying that he was Elijah. It would have been a falsehood and God does not do falsehood.

Malachi 4:5

5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes.

So will Elijah come, to announce the coming of the Messiah or is it rather as the verse states, that he will come before that great and dreadful day, the Lord comes?

Some people thought that this verse meant the Messiah, but it doesn't mean that at all. It is a reference to something known throughout the bible as "The Day of Wrath", mentioned by prophets throughout the entire Bible. We are better acquainted with the idea under another term... the Great Tribulation.

Your Idea that Malachi's Prophecy of the return of Elijah was not denied by John The Baptist does not ring true with the Bible , because John denied that he was Elijah the Jews could not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

Jesus disciples were confronted by the fact that the Jewish leaders denied Jesus as the messiah, because if it were so where was Elijah who was to preceded him?

When the disciples returned to Jesus he told them that if they could accept it, John the Baptist was indeed Elijah who is to come.

Jesus was trying to teach them that Elijah is a mission not just a man and his mission was to draw the people of Israel or convince them that Jesus was the Messiah.

The Fact that John the Baptist said "I'm not worthy to tie his saddles " was NOT a clear indication or Identification that Jesus was the Messiah to the this question.  It was a total denial that he was Elijah or even a prophet. And the very reason they ask this is because they were told to expect the prophet Elijah before the Coming of The Lord, and this is why Jesus had to testify John was this man.

Malachi is the last book of Prophesy in the OT, the scripture is

Malachi 4 :5,6


"But before the great and terrible day of The Lord comes, I will send you the Prophet Elijah. 6.He will bring fathers and children together again;otherwise I would have to come destroy your country"

This is a quote of the full verse., the tail end of which you chose to not include.




#77    SpiritWriter

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 03:00 PM

View Postbraveone2u, on 28 April 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:






"Awakening" has nothing to do with astral travel. True "Awakening" has an element of Lazarus Syndrome, a "switch on," and so much more. Most people who think that they have "awakened" are lying to themselves. Most of them just had a dream or daydream.


I believe my reply to Irrelevant will answer your question.[/b][/size]



God bless, SpiritWriter.

I cant speak for most people nor do I think you can (no offence) but my "awakening" isnt due to a dream or day dream. It is a change in spiritual perception that is ongoing and involves many factors, dreams ARE a part of that, for me.  To me this is a process and not a final conclusion.

I guess what I take from what you said about the difficult transition from moving from belief in the one god to jesus is basically learning adherance to the bible and christianianity... I went through that before but from secular to christian, it was a lovely transition and beaitiful time in my life, it was more thrilling than difficult.. I think its more difficult for me now than then because I have less people who understand me, but I have ascribed to follow God and not man and be led by the spirit. For too long I have not lived my natural life and have sucumbed to others views, I am not like the world and I am rediscovering Myself.. this process for me is harder but God has wonderful timing and seasons for our lives.

Bless you Brave One. :)

I love your screen name ;)

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#78    SpiritWriter

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 03:30 PM

Actually I take that back, parts of my christian conversion were hard...

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#79    laver

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 04:11 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 28 April 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Actually I take that back, parts of my christian conversion were hard...


Really......


#80    Jor-el

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 04:21 PM

View PostIrrelevant, on 28 April 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

I will reply to your previous post however in regards to this one,

I prefer not cut and paste...

Genesis 1:27
So God created human beings,making them to be like himself.

He created them male and Female,

( please note this line illustrating clearly he is a being with dual characteristics and this is shown all through nature that is created in symbol with male and female or positive and negative as in particles )

I disagree with that traditionalist view on the image and what it means. As I said earlier, there are things within christianity that I do not take the majority view on, this is one of them. To me people have misrepresented and misinterpreted this verse to suite their own needs over the millenia, I will not take that path.

If one reads the text within the whole context one sees a very different meaning on the image of God. we are not created in the image of God, especially when we consider that God has no image!!!

We were created to be like God in his action, his work. That much is plain in the text.

Genesis 1:26-28

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.


28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

Come now, look at the above text, what word is clearly associated with the image? It is in red.

To rule is to act in the image of God, we are his imagers, his representatives and it is our absolute responsibility to rule in Gods name on earth. That is what being in Gods image means. People have simply ignored it. Go back, read my earlier post, it describes why this is true in detail.

Why do you think "the serpent", did what he did? what was so important about eating a forbidden fruit except for the fact that God had forbidden it? what are the implications of having eaten that fruit?

The implication is "ABDICATION", we abdicated from that position of being gods imagers, his representatives, we abdicated responsability in the divine council of God. In doing the will and fulfilling the purpose of God for us.

Even Jewish sources realize this... that is why in the Targums, they add a little tidbit to the text by way of a commentary...

III. And the serpent was wiser unto evil than all the beasts of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, Is it truth that the Lord God hath said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said to the serpent, From the rest of the fruits of the trees of the garden we have power to eat; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden the Lord hath said, You shall not eat of it, nor approach it, lest you die. In that hour the serpent spake accusation against his Creator, and said to the woman, Dying you will not die; for every artificer hateth the son of his art: for it is manifest before the Lord, that in the day that you eat of it, you will be as the great angels, who are wise to know between good and evil.

And the woman beheld Sammael, the angel of death, and was afraid; yet she knew that the tree was good to eat, and that it was medicine for the enlightenment of the eyes, and desirable tree by means of which to understand. And she took of its fruit, and did eat; and she gave to her husband with her, and he did eat. And the eyes of both were enlightened, and they knew that they were naked, divested of the
purple robe in which they had been created. And they saw the sight of their shame, and sewed to themselves the leaves of figs, and made to them cinctures. [JERSULAEM. And they made to them vestments.] And they heard the voice of the word of the Lord God walking in the garden in the repose of the day; and Adam and his wife hid themselves from before the Lord God among the trees of the garden. And the Lord God called to Adam, and said to him, Is not all the world which I have made manifest before Me; the darkness as the light? and how hast thou thought in thine heart to hide from before Me? The place where thou art concealed, do I not see? Where are the commandments that I commanded thee?


THE TARGUM OF JONATHAN BEN UZZIEL, ON THE BOOK OF GENESIS. - SECTION I:III

The purple robe of kingship was lost, the purple robe of royalty was lost, we abdicated being Gods representatives on earth, Jesus whole purpose is to bring us back to this destiny.

Edited by Jor-el, 28 April 2013 - 04:23 PM.

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#81    Jor-el

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 04:29 PM

View PostIrrelevant, on 28 April 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Your Idea that Malachi's Prophecy of the return of Elijah was not denied by John The Baptist does not ring true with the Bible , because John denied that he was Elijah the Jews could not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

Jesus disciples were confronted by the fact that the Jewish leaders denied Jesus as the messiah, because if it were so where was Elijah who was to preceded him?

When the disciples returned to Jesus he told them that if they could accept it, John the Baptist was indeed Elijah who is to come.

Jesus was trying to teach them that Elijah is a mission not just a man and his mission was to draw the people of Israel or convince them that Jesus was the Messiah.

The Fact that John the Baptist said "I'm not worthy to tie his saddles " was NOT a clear indication or Identification that Jesus was the Messiah to the this question.  It was a total denial that he was Elijah or even a prophet. And the very reason they ask this is because they were told to expect the prophet Elijah before the Coming of The Lord, and this is why Jesus had to testify John was this man.

Malachi is the last book of Prophesy in the OT, the scripture is

Malachi 4 :5,6


"But before the great and terrible day of The Lord comes, I will send you the Prophet Elijah. 6.He will bring fathers and children together again;otherwise I would have to come destroy your country"

This is a quote of the full verse., the tail end of which you chose to not include.

Please, then in all your wisdom supply us with the actual text that says that Elijah was to come and announce the coming of the Messiah...

Malachi 5:6-6, is certainly not the verse you want, it says absolutely nothing regarding the Messiah!!!!

The fact that you gave us verses 5 and 6 does not add anything to the text, show me how you can twist the verse to mean what it doesn't say. The Jews expected Elijah, that is well known, so waht verses are they basing their cetain belief on?

Edited by Jor-el, 28 April 2013 - 04:49 PM.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#82    Jor-el

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 04:33 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 28 April 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Actually I take that back, parts of my christian conversion were hard...

Those who have alot of knowledge tend to make the most difficult transitions to belief, but they also make the best leaders and their faith is not easily swayed by difficulties.

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#83    Irrelevant

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 05:33 PM

View PostJor-el, on 28 April 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:



Please, then in all your wisdom supply us with the actual text that says that Elijah was to come and announce the coming of the Messiah...

Malachi 5:6-6, is certainly not the verse you want, it says absolutely nothing regarding the Messiah!!!!

The fact that you gave us verses 5 and 6 does not add anything to the text, show me how you can twist the verse to mean what it doesn't say.

It's not my wisdom,

I'm just a messenger to you, lead here to tell you because you asked, so one was sent. This is the time of the second advent.  since you know this and see signs of it why be surprised at this? Those we speak of I know . Since you nor anyone of these lost sheep will come when I call you shall be set free into the wilderness but seek and you shall find.   Since non  has received any message sent preferring to stay ignorant Im now asked to leave, one thing I can say is God loves you very much to have made such a effort for you and you alone.

Look to the one from the east, you will find him right where was promised.  The sadness I felt for you when you thought this is not something you will miss, gazing to the sky and head buried in books , we were in plain sight. We were here when we said we would be, we did what we said we would..he already came and left! do you know how many suffered through history and in present days. The providence expanded from 2, when they failed it went to family, then tribe, then county, then world.


The answer llies in the last line, look closer. Can you hear it?  Yes the whole country was destroyed, this prophet failed us and the least in heaven is greater than he!

Don't be so stubborn & prideful in future, that was Johns problem.


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Posted 28 April 2013 - 06:05 PM

View Posteuroninja, on 28 April 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

The worst thing with kabbhala is finding yourself in a hell and squirming yourself out of it with paralysis. I read a guy died while the other went insane. The fellow who passed it along in europe didn't reach heaven or he wouldn't have lived to tell about it. :tu: Jesus didn't need it. Your right the god who handed it down is pretty evil. It ain't God.

I think you are the first christian troll I have encountered. You know were trolls end up, right? Besides trying to p*** me off you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Edited by markprice, 28 April 2013 - 06:31 PM.

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#85    Jor-el

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 07:23 PM

View PostIrrelevant, on 28 April 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

It's not my wisdom,

I'm just a messenger to you, lead here to tell you because you asked, so one was sent. This is the time of the second advent.  since you know this and see signs of it why be surprised at this? Those we speak of I know . Since you nor anyone of these lost sheep will come when I call you shall be set free into the wilderness but seek and you shall find.   Since non  has received any message sent preferring to stay ignorant Im now asked to leave, one thing I can say is God loves you very much to have made such a effort for you and you alone.

Look to the one from the east, you will find him right where was promised.  The sadness I felt for you when you thought this is not something you will miss, gazing to the sky and head buried in books , we were in plain sight. We were here when we said we would be, we did what we said we would..he already came and left! do you know how many suffered through history and in present days. The providence expanded from 2, when they failed it went to family, then tribe, then county, then world.


The answer llies in the last line, look closer. Can you hear it?  Yes the whole country was destroyed, this prophet failed us and the least in heaven is greater than he!

Don't be so stubborn & prideful in future, that was Johns problem.

The one I await is the Cloud Rider... it is not about being stubborn or prideful, it is about holding to the promise of my saviour in spite of the call of the world and of other seemingly convincing saviours. The anti-christ will come from the East, he will come from a nation that was once part of the Old Roman Empire, he will preach peace and will deal with others with a silver tongue and a fist of iron, that is not my saviour. He can call himself the Lord, as a matter of fact he will. He will stand in the Holy of Holies within a the rebuilt temple and proclaim himself God...  no this is not the man I await with all my heart.

Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.

For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:21, 24

For at that time there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will be. And if those days had not been shortened, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect they will be shortened. If anyone says to you then, 'Look, here is the Messiah!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. False messiahs and false prophets will arise, and they will perform signs and wonders so great as to deceive, if that were possible, even the elect.
  
As a matter of fact read the whole chapter...

Edited by Jor-el, 28 April 2013 - 07:27 PM.

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#86    markprice

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 07:27 PM

View PostJor-el, on 28 April 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Astrology didn't come about from something like shepherds gazing at the sky, it a system that was taught to us, we didn't develop it. The "sons of God" of Genesis 6 taught mankind astrology along with other things like necromancy. What was taught is a  corruption of knowledge that we have had since our creation as human beings. The stars were put in place by God as signs of his unfailing word. God announced the Messiah using these signs, some say the entire Gospel is written out in the sky. The great Dragon (Scorpio and libra), the seed of woman (Virgo), and the coming king (Leo) among many others.

As the bible says, The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

Here's a quote from the footnotes of a masonic book: We must not forget that the author of Genesis had been brought up at the court of the Egyptian Pharaoh and had been initiated into the mysteries. In other words, he had delved deeply into the secrets of the temple and had come into the possession of a secret knowledge, the profound significance of which has never been doubted. Moses, likewise, had mastered the principals of religious legislation and he gave proof of this when he became the leader of his people.

The sons of God were incarnations with knowledge...(you see where I'm going with that).

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#87    Jor-el

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 07:47 PM

View Postmarkprice, on 28 April 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

Here's a quote from the footnotes of a masonic book: We must not forget that the author of Genesis had been brought up at the court of the Egyptian Pharaoh and had been initiated into the mysteries. In other words, he had delved deeply into the secrets of the temple and had come into the possession of a secret knowledge, the profound significance of which has never been doubted. Moses, likewise, had mastered the principals of religious legislation and he gave proof of this when he became the leader of his people.

The sons of God were incarnations with knowledge...(you see where I'm going with that).

And I once believed that myself... the truth is Genesis stands against all that. It turns the whole cosmological model of the ANE world upside down and rejects it bluntly and thoroughly. I do not believe for a moment that Moses used any of that secret knowledge in the writing of Genesis. Why?

Because I believe that God himself doesn't hide from mankind and the books wriitten by Moses exist to reveal God, noty hide him in secret ritual and knowledge. Yes there is a certain ammount of coding in the Torah but none of it especially secret if one knows anything about God and his plan for mankind.

As for the sons of God I don't know exactly what you mean by the phrase "incarnations with knowledge", but I do know what I mean by the term "sons of God", I mean the ancient gods of the nations, the 70 gods of the world, the gods of polytheism, to whom God gave the nations after their rejection of him.

Some call them fallen angels, some call them watchers, but they are called gods by the ancient world. They created hybrid humans when they married and had intercourse with human women, they taught many things to mankind, astrology,  the signs of the earth, the resolving of enchantments, metallurgy and cosmetics, meteorology, writing, the courses of the sun and moon. As a matter of fact they are the authors of human civilization as we know it.

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#88    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 08:25 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 28 April 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

I cant speak for most people nor do I think you can (no offence) but my "awakening" isnt due to a dream or day dream. It is a change in spiritual perception that is ongoing and involves many factors, dreams ARE a part of that, for me.  To me this is a process and not a final conclusion.

I guess what I take from what you said about the difficult transition from moving from belief in the one god to jesus is basically learning adherance to the bible and christianianity... I went through that before but from secular to christian, it was a lovely transition and beaitiful time in my life, it was more thrilling than difficult.. I think its more difficult for me now than then because I have less people who understand me, but I have ascribed to follow God and not man and be led by the spirit. For too long I have not lived my natural life and have sucumbed to others views, I am not like the world and I am rediscovering Myself.. this process for me is harder but God has wonderful timing and seasons for our lives.

Bless you Brave One. :)

I love your screen name ;)
Hi SpiritWriter,

You directly asked me what I think about an "awakened" state, and I gave you "a" definition, the one which I believe best describes it. It's the one I accepted (due to my former "spiritual lineage"). This definition is partly from Bart Marshall's teaching. BTW, he's not the head Guru of my former order. "Awakening" has nothing to do with emotions, nor freedom. Personally, I think it's a sham, or it doesn't make any difference, for one is still on this earth; therefore, freedom is out of the question. "Awakening" is just another perpetrated and perpetuated lie, a trendy, Hollywood party conversational piece.

Whenever I write, I mostly speak for myself, 97%. When directly asked, it goes up to 100%.

The moment Jesus Christ rescued me from the Void was really the beginning of my Christian life, even though I didn't know it then. It was also the beginning of losing the "things" I gained through this former god. There's so much to say, and I've lost quite of bit of assets (beach homes, "luxury" sports cars, BIG money) and actually, more than the material stuff... I have, however, gained my "life" with Christ, and that means my eternal salvation.


I'm glad you like my screen name.

Have a good evening, SpiritWriter.

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#89    SpiritWriter

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 09:25 PM

View Postbraveone2u, on 28 April 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:


Hi SpiritWriter,

You directly asked me what I think about an "awakened" state, and I gave you "a" definition, the one which I believe best describes it. It's the one I accepted (due to my former "spiritual lineage"). This definition is partly from Bart Marshall's teaching. BTW, he's not the head Guru of my former order. "Awakening" has nothing to do with emotions, nor freedom. Personally, I think it's a sham, or it doesn't make any difference, for one is still on this earth; therefore, freedom is out of the question. "Awakening" is just another perpetrated and perpetuated lie, a trendy, Hollywood party conversational piece.

Whenever I write, I mostly speak for myself, 97%. When directly asked, it goes up to 100%.

The moment Jesus Christ rescued me from the Void was really the beginning of my Christian life, even though I didn't know it then. It was also the beginning of losing the "things" I gained through this former god. There's so much to say, and I've lost quite of bit of assets (beach homes, "luxury" sports cars, BIG money) and actually, more than the material stuff... I have, however, gained my "life" with Christ, and that means my eternal salvation.


I'm glad you like my screen name.

Have a good evening, SpiritWriter.

Yes I did ask you and thank you for sharing. I think its another vocab word that has different meanings for different people. For me its not trendy, a spiritual change has come over me, I dont live in hollywood and believe it or not I impress no one at all. Maybe there is a different word that could describe my transition. But I assume this may be the transition that some refer to as awakening... maybe there is a better word, or no word to describe such a thing.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#90    Jor-el

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 09:34 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 28 April 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

Yes I did ask you and thank you for sharing. I think its another vocab word that has different meanings for different people. For me its not trendy, a spiritual change has come over me, I dont live in hollywood and believe it or not I impress no one at all. Maybe there is a different word that could describe my transition. But I assume this may be the transition that some refer to as awakening... maybe there is a better word, or no word to describe such a thing.

The best word I think is "regeneration", you who were once dead, are now alive.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis






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