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The Wedding of Jesus


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#166    Paranoid Android

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 03:11 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 06 July 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

Now yes, you are clear with the explanation of the myth about the second death. There is just one thing you have missed: That this goes well with Christians and not with Jews. When you use a Jew in the person of Jesus as having resurrected your explanation collapses. According to Jesus' Faith which was Judaism, Jews do not believe in resurrection. To suffer a second death one must resurrect. Again, either Jesus was not a Jew or the second death does not exist. In that case, the salary of sin is the first death. Then again, since all die, whether they committed sins or not, even physical death has nothing to do with sin but with the natural
process or having been born.

Now, regarding those who die without sins, you imply that I am referring to children and you are right because I am but you aren't. You refer also to the adult man called Jesus unaware that he also committed sins. Have you ever heard about the Golden Rule? That's the commandment one breaks when he does unto others
what he would not like they did unto himself. To remove the money changers from the front area of the Temple Jesus armed himself with a whip of cords and caused physical and financial damages to their business. (John 2:15) I wonder if he was reminded of this incident when the Romans were scourging him. Then for several times he would address the Jewish authorities as hypocrites and brood of vipers. (Mat.23:13-33) I am sure he would not have liked to be treated that way, don't you think so?
Some Jews do indeed believe in a resurrection.  At the time of Jesus there were several competing groups.  The Saducees, for example, are specifically said to deny the resurrection, and therefore they ask a pertinent question to Jesus about the resurrection.  Other Jewish groups did indeed believe in a resurrection.  Remember, the earliest followers of Jesus were indeed Jews.  Jesus taught about the resurrection.... oh, wait... my bad, that's a Pauline insertion.  At least it is according to you.

As to the second part, Jesus was sinless, the only adult who ever was sinless. He was a special case because he was God in the flesh.  That is why his death was meaningful.  If he had sinned then his death could only pay for his own sin.  The money changers was an act of righteous anger, therefore not sin.  They were defiling what should have been God's house.

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#167    Jor-el

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 10:35 AM

Ben, can you tell us please where you place yourself in Jewish belief?

Are you a Conservative, Orthodox, Reform or Reconstructionist Jew?

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#168    blackpantherSA

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 10:51 AM

well im just going to go ahead and say ben... first off.. awesome :3 and second im not religious so people who want to argue out there your argument is invalid... "to me" :) okay?


#169    Ben Masada

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:02 PM

View PostJor-el, on 06 July 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

My dear Ben,

With all due respect that is Bull.

http://www.jewishvir...17_0_16664.html

The reform movement does NOT hold a monopoly on the truth...

There has been some sentiment in more traditional circles to retain the belief in resurrection, but rather than taking it literally, to understand it as a symbol affirming that the ultimate salvation of the individual is dependent on God and that what is fulfilled is the entire person – both body and soul – not just the spiritual essence.

Okay, in that case, show me a Jew who believes in bodily resurrection and I will prove to you how Christian he is. There is nothing else I can do. You seem to want to teach Judaism to the Jew and that's a no-no.


#170    Ben Masada

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:12 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 07 July 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

Some Jews do indeed believe in a resurrection.  At the time of Jesus there were several competing groups.  The Saducees, for example, are specifically said to deny the resurrection, and therefore they ask a pertinent question to Jesus about the resurrection.  Other Jewish groups did indeed believe in a resurrection.  Remember, the earliest followers of Jesus were indeed Jews.  Jesus taught about the resurrection.... oh, wait... my bad, that's a Pauline insertion.  At least it is according to you.

As to the second part, Jesus was sinless, the only adult who ever was sinless. He was a special case because he was God in the flesh.  That is why his death was meaningful.  If he had sinned then his death could only pay for his own sin.  The money changers was an act of righteous anger, therefore not sin.  They were defiling what should have been God's house.

PA, there are two things one cannot fight against: One is Anti-Semitism and the other is Faith. In your case is faith. Paul did a mighty good work on his Christians when he said that they are supposed to walk by faith and not by sight. (II Cor.5:7) If I could talk to you on a mind-to-mind basis perhaps I could have some chance. But on a mind-to-heart basis there is no chance. Pity!


#171    Ben Masada

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:16 PM

View PostJor-el, on 07 July 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Ben, can you tell us please where you place yourself in Jewish belief?

Are you a Conservative, Orthodox, Reform or Reconstructionist Jew?

None. I am a free Jew with a mind of his own but very much aware of all forms of Judaism. But I did study Judaica at the University of Judaism in Los Angeles.


#172    Ben Masada

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:18 PM

View PostblackpantherSA, on 09 July 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

well im just going to go ahead and say ben... first off.. awesome :3 and second im not religious so people who want to argue out there your argument is invalid... "to me" :) okay?

Give me 5!


#173    Jor-el

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:34 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 09 July 2013 - 09:02 PM, said:

Okay, in that case, show me a Jew who believes in bodily resurrection and I will prove to you how Christian he is. There is nothing else I can do. You seem to want to teach Judaism to the Jew and that's a no-no.

The link I gave is from the Jewish Virtual Library written by someone you might know then since you studied in California...

Daniel Boyarin, Professor of Talmudic Culture at the University of California, Berkeley....

Posted Image

His article I think trumps your position and your affirmations.

Edited by Jor-el, 09 July 2013 - 09:34 PM.

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#174    Paranoid Android

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 04:25 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 09 July 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

PA, there are two things one cannot fight against: One is Anti-Semitism and the other is Faith. In your case is faith. Paul did a mighty good work on his Christians when he said that they are supposed to walk by faith and not by sight. (II Cor.5:7) If I could talk to you on a mind-to-mind basis perhaps I could have some chance. But on a mind-to-heart basis there is no chance. Pity!
And when all else fails, resort to insults.  Let me rephrase your words in a way that I perceive them - "you're blinded by what is obviously the truth, unable to think critically - if you weren't, you'd agree with me".  Jor-el gave you a link to the Jewish Virtual Library, which clearly outlines Jewish views on the resurrection, from the Rabbinical period, and specifically cites the difference between the Pharisees and Sadducees.  Whether the Tanakh promotes the resurrection or not, the Pharisees believe in it, and it's referenced in the Mishnah (I'm pulling this straight from the link, written by a professor in Talmudic studies).  Therefore it is fair to conclude that some schools of Jewish thought do actually include the belief in a resurrection.

If someone is blinded by their belief/s, are you certain it's me in this story, and not you?

Edited by Paranoid Android, 10 July 2013 - 07:24 AM.

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#175    Ben Masada

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 07:50 PM

View PostJor-el, on 09 July 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

The link I gave is from the Jewish Virtual Library written by someone you might know then since you studied in California...

Daniel Boyarin, Professor of Talmudic Culture at the University of California, Berkeley....

Posted Image

His article I think trumps your position and your affirmations.

View PostJor-el, on 09 July 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

The link I gave is from the Jewish Virtual Library written by someone you might know then since you studied in California...

Daniel Boyarin, Professor of Talmudic Culture at the University of California, Berkeley....

Posted Image

His article I think trumps your position and your affirmations.

View PostParanoid Android, on 10 July 2013 - 04:25 AM, said:

And when all else fails, resort to insults.  Let me rephrase your words in a way that I perceive them - "you're blinded by what is obviously the truth, unable to think critically - if you weren't, you'd agree with me".  Jor-el gave you a link to the Jewish Virtual Library, which clearly outlines Jewish views on the resurrection, from the Rabbinical period, and specifically cites the difference between the Pharisees and Sadducees.  Whether the Tanakh promotes the resurrection or not, the Pharisees believe in it, and it's referenced in the Mishnah (I'm pulling this straight from the link, written by a professor in Talmudic studies).  Therefore it is fair to conclude that some schools of Jewish thought do actually include the belief in a resurrection.

If someone is blinded by their belief/s, are you certain it's me in this story, and not you?

I checked the link and I found absolutely nothing about Jewish belief in bodily resurrection. I don't even know what else to say about yours and Jorel's claim that the Professor teaches about bodily resurrection. Therefore, I stand on my position that such a doctrine is not taught neither in the Tanach nor in the Talmud. And last but not least, neither in Maimonides whom some people claim as implying bodily resurrection.


#176    Jor-el

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:30 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 12 July 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

I checked the link and I found absolutely nothing about Jewish belief in bodily resurrection. I don't even know what else to say about yours and Jorel's claim that the Professor teaches about bodily resurrection. Therefore, I stand on my position that such a doctrine is not taught neither in the Tanach nor in the Talmud. And last but not least, neither in Maimonides whom some people claim as implying bodily resurrection.

Man, let then quote the relevant parts...


The components of the idea of resurrection were present in biblical thought from early times. That God can revive the dead is one of His praises: "I slay and revive; I wounded and I will heal" (Deut. 32:39; cf. Pes. 68a for the argument that death and life of the same person is meant); "YHWH slays and revives; He brings down to Sheol and raises up" (I Sam. 2:6; cf. II Kings 5:7). His power to do so was exhibited through the acts of Elijah and Elisha (I Kings 17:17ff.; II Kings 4:18ff.).

In the rabbinic period the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead is considered one of the central doctrines of Judaism. The tenth chapter of Mishnah Sanhedrin begins, "All of Israel has a portion in the world to come, as it is said (Isa. 60:21) 'And Thy people are all righteous, at the End they shall inherit the land…' and the following have no portion in the world to come: one who says, 'There is no resurrection of the dead….'"

The idea of resurrection, then, for the rabbis was clearly and literally corporeal.

Among the medieval Jewish philosophers there were many differences of opinion with regard to the resurrection. These controversies depend for the most part on the fact that it was not clear, or certainly not explicit, that there had been controversy in the talmudic period. Consequently some thinkers accepted one of the talmudic opinions, and others contested their views, without realizing that they were simply following different sides of an old argument.

In the modernistic versions of Judaism, the belief in resurrection was denied in favor of the seemingly more acceptable doctrine of immortality.

There has been some sentiment in more traditional circles to retain the belief in resurrection, but rather than taking it literally, to understand it as a symbol affirming that the ultimate salvation of the individual is dependent on God and that what is fulfilled is the entire person – both body and soul – not just the spiritual essence.

All these quotes from the text are clear that the resurrection of the body has always been central to Jewish belief. The last though is clear that it is your generation Ben that has rejected these beliefs in favour of Immortality (eternal spirit), but it is clear that this is not jewish... not by tradition and not by the bible and not by the Talmud and not by the ancient rabbis.

As Daniel Boyarin states God fulfills the entire person – both body and soul – not just the spiritual essence.  Hmmm as far I know we term this bodily resurrection, the reuniting of BODY and SOUL.

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#177    Ben Masada

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:25 PM

View PostJor-el, on 12 July 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

Man, let then quote the relevant parts...

The components of the idea of resurrection were present in biblical thought from early times. That God can revive the dead is one of His praises: "I slay and revive; I wounded and I will heal" (Deut. 32:39; cf. Pes. 68a for the argument that death and life of the same person is meant); "YHWH slays and revives; He brings down to Sheol and raises up" (I Sam. 2:6; cf. II Kings 5:7). His power to do so was exhibited through the acts of Elijah and Elisha (I Kings 17:17ff.; II Kings 4:18ff.).

In the rabbinic period the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead is considered one of the central doctrines of Judaism. The tenth chapter of Mishnah Sanhedrin begins, "All of Israel has a portion in the world to come, as it is said (Isa. 60:21) 'And Thy people are all righteous, at the End they shall inherit the land…' and the following have no portion in the world to come: one who says, 'There is no resurrection of the dead….'"

The idea of resurrection, then, for the rabbis was clearly and literally corporeal.

Among the medieval Jewish philosophers there were many differences of opinion with regard to the resurrection. These controversies depend for the most part on the fact that it was not clear, or certainly not explicit, that there had been controversy in the talmudic period. Consequently some thinkers accepted one of the talmudic opinions, and others contested their views, without realizing that they were simply following different sides of an old argument.

In the modernistic versions of Judaism, the belief in resurrection was denied in favor of the seemingly more acceptable doctrine of immortality.

There has been some sentiment in more traditional circles to retain the belief in resurrection, but rather than taking it literally, to understand it as a symbol affirming that the ultimate salvation of the individual is dependent on God and that what is fulfilled is the entire person – both body and soul – not just the spiritual essence.

All these quotes from the text are clear that the resurrection of the body has always been central to Jewish belief. The last though is clear that it is your generation Ben that has rejected these beliefs in favour of Immortality (eternal spirit), but it is clear that this is not jewish... not by tradition and not by the bible and not by the Talmud and not by the ancient rabbis.

As Daniel Boyarin states God fulfills the entire person – both body and soul – not just the spiritual essence.  Hmmm as far I know we term this bodily resurrection, the reuniting of BODY and SOUL.


Jorel, you can go right ahead and ad hominem me as a stupid jerk because I read the whole post above and found nothing at all to justify bodily resurrection. All the references point to the metaphorical resurrection according to Ezekiel 37:12. The return of the Jews in exile from the graves of the nations and back to the Land of the Living which is the Land of Israel according to Isaiah 53:8,9. I am sorry pal but even immortality as a replacement of bodily resurrection is not Jewish considering that we believe that only HaShem is immortal. And Torah is pretty clear according to Genesis 3:22 that man is not supposed to live forever. BTW, Isaiah is just clear enough that nothing and no one can be compared with God Who is immortal and no one else can be. (Isa.46:5)

Edited by Ben Masada, 16 July 2013 - 08:28 PM.


#178    Jor-el

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:49 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 16 July 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

Jorel, you can go right ahead and ad hominem me as a stupid jerk because I read the whole post above and found nothing at all to justify bodily resurrection. All the references point to the metaphorical resurrection according to Ezekiel 37:12. The return of the Jews in exile from the graves of the nations and back to the Land of the Living which is the Land of Israel according to Isaiah 53:8,9. I am sorry pal but even immortality as a replacement of bodily resurrection is not Jewish considering that we believe that only HaShem is immortal. And Torah is pretty clear according to Genesis 3:22 that man is not supposed to live forever. BTW, Isaiah is just clear enough that nothing and no one can be compared with God Who is immortal and no one else can be. (Isa.46:5)

So basically you read it... and ignored it.

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#179    Paranoid Android

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 02:05 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 16 July 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

Jorel, you can go right ahead and ad hominem me as a stupid jerk because I read the whole post above and found nothing at all to justify bodily resurrection. All the references point to the metaphorical resurrection according to Ezekiel 37:12. The return of the Jews in exile from the graves of the nations and back to the Land of the Living which is the Land of Israel according to Isaiah 53:8,9. I am sorry pal but even immortality as a replacement of bodily resurrection is not Jewish considering that we believe that only HaShem is immortal. And Torah is pretty clear according to Genesis 3:22 that man is not supposed to live forever. BTW, Isaiah is just clear enough that nothing and no one can be compared with God Who is immortal and no one else can be. (Isa.46:5)
The idea of resurrection, then, for the rabbis was clearly and literally corporeal.

Quote from the link.  Are you serious that you found NOTHING in the entire article?  Please note we're not talking about what the Bible says.  You are free to whatever opinion you like.  We're talking about Rabbinical belief during certain periods of Jewish history.  If you disagree, remember that you aren't disagreeing with me or Jor-el, but you are disagreeing with a Professor of Talmudic Culture at the University of California, quoted in the Jewish Virtual Library.  Is the Jewish Virtual Library untrustworthy?  Is a university professor of Talmudic studies untrustworthy?

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#180    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:58 PM

View PostJor-el, on 16 July 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

So basically you read it... and ignored it.

I cannot agree with you because you are my friend. The Truth is impartial.





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