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The Wedding of Jesus


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#181    Ben Masada

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:04 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 17 July 2013 - 02:05 AM, said:

The idea of resurrection, then, for the rabbis was clearly and literally corporeal.

Quote from the link.  Are you serious that you found NOTHING in the entire article?  Please note we're not talking about what the Bible says.  You are free to whatever opinion you like.  We're talking about Rabbinical belief during certain periods of Jewish history.  If you disagree, remember that you aren't disagreeing with me or Jor-el, but you are disagreeing with a Professor of Talmudic Culture at the University of California, quoted in the Jewish Virtual Library.  Is the Jewish Virtual Library untrustworthy?  Is a university professor of Talmudic studies untrustworthy?

To accept the opinion of another just because he is a Rabbi or Professor in a university is a fallacious appeal to authority.


#182    Jor-el

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:32 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 18 July 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

I cannot agree with you because you are my friend. The Truth is impartial.

Friends can disagree, sure, but truth is only impartial if you allow it to be so...

While you can believe what you feel is the truth, the truth also states that others who are Jewish believers do not have to agree with your views either, since the truth as they see it leads them in another direction. As such you can speak for your view but Judaism does not follow your position as a whole.

They do believe in a literal bodily resurrection seperate from what we call the Olam Ha-Bah, or the world to come, or rather that when one happens the other will follow. you choose to believe differently.

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#183    Paranoid Android

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 02:18 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 18 July 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:



To accept the opinion of another just because he is a Rabbi or Professor in a university is a fallacious appeal to authority.
If it's a choice between a university professor who has devoted his life to the study of a topic, and a random anonymous dude on the internet, then 99 times out of 100 I'll listen to the professor. And if that is a "fallacious appeal to authority" then so be it. I can live with that.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 19 July 2013 - 02:19 AM.

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#184    keithisco

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 04:59 PM

I always find these discussion interesting but only for Historical Context and which cult was popular, and when.

The over-ridiing weak point in all of these arguments is that there is not one scrap of verifiable evidence that a Person called Jesus ever existed which makes all debate about "him" rather moot. IMO

The Romans were rather fastidious book-keepers but yet no mention of a person called "Jesus" King of the Jews exists in any of their records. No record of imprisonment and subsequent Crucifixion. nada, Zip, Nothing whatsoever.

i also note that what people keep banging on about the "Bible" is nothing but a construct of the Council of Nycaea with the following not making the cut along with the Gospel according to Mary

Book of the Wars of the Lord  referenced in:
Numbers 21:14

Book of Jasher referenced in: Joshua 10:13

Book of Nathan & Book of Gad referenced in 1 Chronicles 29:29

Book of Nathan, Prophecy of Ahijah, and Visions of Iddo referenced in 2 Chronicles 9:29

Acts of Solomon referenced in 1 Kings 11:41

Book of Shemaiah & Book of Iddo referenced in 2 Chronicles 12:15

Annals of Iddo referenced in 2 Chronicles 13:22

Book of Jehu 2 Chronicles 20:34

Book of Enoch referenced in Jude 1:14

Acts of Pilate

Prior Epistle to Corinth referenced in
Corinthians 5:9

Prior Epistle to the Ephesians referenced in Ephesians 3:3, 4

Apocalypse of Peter

Epistle from Laodicea referenced in Colossians 4:16

The Source of the Nazarene Prophecy referenced in Matthew 2:23 as a quote from another source but he does not tell us the source.

Life of Adam and Eve



Of course this does not include the 12 books of the Apocrypha which is in Roman Cathoilc Bibles but not Protestant.

Edited by keithisco, 19 July 2013 - 05:06 PM.


#185    GIDEON MAGE

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 06:23 PM

There are so very many anachronisms and simple errors in the new testament that it is silly to discuss anything about the figmentary Jesus of Nazareth.  Even the term "Rabbi" was not in common use as a proper Title until the founding of the first Yeshivah, at Yahvneh, after the fall of Jerusalem.  The Romans burned the Temple, so the Priesthood faded away, and the Jews had to rely on teachers instead.  Jesus would have been dead by then, if he were real!

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#186    Jor-el

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 06:34 PM

View PostGIDEON MAGE, on 19 July 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

There are so very many anachronisms and simple errors in the new testament that it is silly to discuss anything about the figmentary Jesus of Nazareth.  Even the term "Rabbi" was not in common use as a proper Title until the founding of the first Yeshivah, at Yahvneh, after the fall of Jerusalem.  The Romans burned the Temple, so the Priesthood faded away, and the Jews had to rely on teachers instead.  Jesus would have been dead by then, if he were real!

What does Rabbi mean Gideon?

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#187    The Gremlin

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 07:04 PM

Wedding of Jesus?
Wine cordial, that's what I say.


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#188    keithisco

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 08:00 PM

View PostJor-el, on 19 July 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

What does Rabbi mean Gideon?
Does NOT mean "Teacher", that would be "moreh" and wasn't there only 1 Rabbi,  Rabbi Yeshua Natzraya?

Edited by keithisco, 19 July 2013 - 08:02 PM.


#189    Jor-el

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 08:03 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 19 July 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

Does NOT mean "Teacher", that would be "moreh" and wasn't there only 1 Rabbi,  Rabbi Yeshua Natzraya?

So again... what does Rabbi mean?

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#190    GIDEON MAGE

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 08:29 PM

"Rav" literally means "great man".  "Rabbi" adds a possessive ending, "my great man".  The root RV, in Hebrew, means "great" or "many", as in "Todah Rabbah", "much thanks".  The earlier version of the term was "Rabban", for example "Raban Gamaliel".  The usage came from "Men of the Great assembly".  After the fall of Jerusalem in 79 C.E., the learned men fled to Yavneh and joined Jochanan ben Zakkai, the founder of Rabbinic Judiasm, at the Yeshivah.  They were called "Rabbi", to indicate that they were not priests.  The compilers of the New Testament, 400 years later, did not know this, thus the incredibly anachronistic use of Rabbi.  The modern equivalent would be to refer to a U.S. secretary under Lincoln as Chief of Homeland Security", a dept that did not exist at the time.  Feel free to google Yohanan ben Zachai of the Yavneh Yeshivah.

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#191    Jor-el

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 08:37 PM

View PostGIDEON MAGE, on 19 July 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

"Rav" literally means "great man".  "Rabbi" adds a possessive ending, "my great man".  The root RV, in Hebrew, means "great" or "many", as in "Todah Rabbah", "much thanks".  The earlier version of the term was "Rabban", for example "Raban Gamaliel".  The usage came from "Men of the Great assembly".  After the fall of Jerusalem in 79 C.E., the learned men fled to Yavneh and joined Jochanan ben Zakkai, the founder of Rabbinic Judiasm, at the Yeshivah.  They were called "Rabbi", to indicate that they were not priests.  The compilers of the New Testament, 400 years later, did not know this, thus the incredibly anachronistic use of Rabbi.  The modern equivalent would be to refer to a U.S. secretary under Lincoln as Chief of Homeland Security", a dept that did not exist at the time.  Feel free to google Yohanan ben Zachai of the Yavneh Yeshivah.

So it does not mean "My Master"?

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#192    GIDEON MAGE

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 02:59 AM

View PostJor-el, on 19 July 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

So it does not mean "My Master"?
what part of my detailed explanation did you not get?

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#193    Jor-el

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 09:18 AM

View PostGIDEON MAGE, on 20 July 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

what part of my detailed explanation did you not get?

The part I don't get is how the same word can be translated into so many different meanings by the same group of people.

For example, you state that it means "My Great man", but the Jewsih Encyclopedia gives it as " My Master".

http://www.jewishenc...les/12494-rabbi

Now Both may be similar but they are not the same thing.

We know it wasn't a title during the 2nd temple period, everyone admits that much, but it was a term of great respect employed as the equivilant english term would be used, of a disciple speaking to his master and teacher for example.

I have read a few books written by Jewish learned men, and while their masters and teachers were hardly ever referred to as Rabbi, they did refer to their teachers as their "Masters". I'm using the term in the same way that an apprentice in any trade would refer to his teacher or "Master", not so much as a master slave relationship, but rather as an apprentice teacher relatationship. The teacher would and was effectively known as "My Master".

So I wonder why would you call it an anachronism when clearly it did not have the meaning that would make it anachronistic in the 1st place.

It would be an anachronism if it were a title, which everyone admits that it was not.

It is interesting that the term "Mister", derives froom the term "Master" and is today used as an honorific that applies to all men. And again it is interesting that the derivative "Rab", is used in much the same way.

Edited by Jor-el, 20 July 2013 - 09:23 AM.

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#194    Ben Masada

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 07:32 PM

View PostJor-el, on 18 July 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

Friends can disagree, sure, but truth is only impartial if you allow it to be so...

While you can believe what you feel is the truth, the truth also states that others who are Jewish believers do not have to agree with your views either, since the truth as they see it leads them in another direction. As such you can speak for your view but Judaism does not follow your position as a whole.

They do believe in a literal bodily resurrection seperate from what we call the Olam Ha-Bah, or the world to come, or rather that when one happens the other will follow. you choose to believe differently.

However, you haven't been able to prove or show evidences that the Jewish People as a whole believe in bodily resurrection. If there is any one who does is for lack of Scriptural learning.

Edited by Ben Masada, 20 July 2013 - 07:33 PM.


#195    Ben Masada

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 07:38 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 19 July 2013 - 02:18 AM, said:

If it's a choice between a university professor who has devoted his life to the study of a topic, and a random anonymous dude on the internet, then 99 times out of 100 I'll listen to the professor. And if that is a "fallacious appeal to authority" then so be it. I can live with that.

And as far as I am concerned, I live with the fallacious appeal to the authority of the Scriptures. That's what I prefer. Any extra-Biblical interpretation is a private opinion subject to analysis.





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