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The Wedding of Jesus


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#76    Jor-el

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 05:35 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 23 May 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

"What I do believe is that there is indeed a better covenant, one that goes beyond the Law of the Mosaic Covenant. It goes beyond the Mosaic Covenant because indeed, the Mosaic covenant was completely fulfilled by Jesus Christ alone." *This is akin to what Paul said in Galatians to cast out the Sinaitic Covenant because Israel could not inherit the Kingdom of God in the same level with Christians. (Gal.4:30)*

Hi Ben,

The text does not say that Israel cannot inherit the Kingdom of God in the same level with Christians, it says that people, refusing the new covenant are blinded by tradition instead of looking to God. That is after all what held many Jews back from recognizing the Messiah when he was among them. Those who hold that their traditions have as much authority as the word of God itself. And those traditions abound, not only in Judaism but in much of Christianity itself.

Just as today you in Israel, divide the population into two segments, the Jews and the Israelis, and one can be an Israeli without being a Jew, because Jews are a special breed apart. So does Paul divide Judaism into two parts, those who welcome the New Covenant and the Messiah and those who cannot accept the New Covenant because tradition and their pet interpretation of the Law is more valuable than the evidence before them.

So if you somehow feel left out here, it is not because you are Jewish.

Quote

"Jesus by fulfilling the Mosaic Covenant where no-one else could, provided the basis for a New Covenant, that was superior to the Mosaic Covenant." *If the Christian covenant was superior to the Mosaic Covenant the election of the Jews was no longer relevant.*

Superior but not separate. There is a clear distinction here. All those who willingly traverse to the New Covenant do not lose anything and those that remain behind continue to practice the Old Covenant and will continue to do so until God decides otherwise. They have an important part to play in the foundation of the Millennium reign of the Messiah.


Quote

"The New Covenant is a new relationship between God and all humans (not just Israel) mediated by Jesus. This New Covenant states that "Israel" is primarily a spiritual nation composed of Jews who claim Jesus as their Messiah, as well as Gentile believers who through the New Covenant have been grafted into the promises made to Israel. So the blood line becomes redundant, it is the spiritual Israel that we all belong to, if we accept Jesus as the Messiah and his blood spilled on the cross seals this covenant."  *When you imply that only the Jews who claim Jesus as their Messiah are part of the spiritual nation under the new covenant it is understood that the God has condemned the rest of the People.*

No not condemned, God has not abandoned them, their existence is part of Gods plan and God will use them yet to further that plan. That means that they will indeed see those promises made to them by God bear fruit.


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"A New Covenant also means a new Priesthood and High Priest, as you said, and we believers in Jesus the Messiah, are those priests and the High Priest is none other than Jesus Christ himself." *A new Priesthood and High Priest is the role of the Church. And the believers in Jesus as the Messiah have replaced the nation of Israel.*

Actually no, if one pays careful attention to the bible, the Jews will be uniquely positioned as the priesthood within the Millennial reign of the Messiah. The priesthood referred to by the church only assumes what has already been given to Israel as promise. Thus we are all priests and Kings with the Messiah, because that is what the New covenant gives us all, but we are not a formal priesthood, which is a position that will be taken uniquely by the Jewish people.

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So, you do admit that actually there was a replacement. I mean not really but as Christianity is concerned.

Actually, that eldest son is a metaphor for yourself... Who does this little upstart think he is, coming here and replacing me?

We the gentiles are adopted members of the family, we may have the same rights as any other son of that family, but we are adopted, not born into the family. we could not replace you even if we wanted to.

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#77    Ben Masada

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 08:29 PM

View PostJor-el, on 24 May 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

Hi Ben,

Quote

The text does not say that Israel cannot inherit the Kingdom of God in the same level with Christians, it says that people, refusing the new covenant are blinded by tradition instead of looking to God. That is after all what held many Jews back from recognizing the Messiah when he was among them. Those who hold that their traditions have as much authority as the word of God itself. And those traditions abound, not only in Judaism but in much of Christianity itself.

The text does say exactly as I have reproduced it. The problem is that your Christian pre-conceived notions won't allow you to see the obvious. What you are doing is observing Paul's words in 2 Cor.5:7 that Christians must walk by faith and not by sight. This time I am not going to ask you to read a book by Spinoza but a text in your own NT. That's in Galatians 4:21-31. Especially verse 30 says "To cast out the Sinaitic Covenant and the Jews because they cannot be heirs with the followers of Paul." That's for lack of a better word, Replacement Theology.

Quote

Just as today you in Israel, divide the population into two segments, the Jews and the Israelis, and one can be an Israeli without being a Jew, because Jews are a special breed apart. So does Paul divide Judaism into two parts, those who welcome the New Covenant and the Messiah and those who cannot accept the New Covenant because tradition and their pet interpretation of the Law is more valuable than the evidence before them.

Please, give me an example of "our pet interpretation of the Law".

Quote

So if you somehow feel left out here, it is not because you are Jewish
.

I know. We must quit being Jewish in order to be grafted in. That's Replacement Theology but alas! How can the colors of the rainbow be explained to the blind?

Quote

Superior but not separate. There is a clear distinction here. All those who willingly traverse to the New Covenant do not lose anything and those that remain behind continue to practice the Old Covenant and will continue to do so until God decides otherwise. They have an important part to play in the foundation of the Millennium reign of the Messiah.

"Superior" and to pass over to the Christian new covenant one must believe as a Christian does or he will lose his Jewish identity. That's Replacement Theology.

Quote

Actually no, if one pays careful attention to the bible, the Jews will be uniquely positioned as the priesthood within the Millennial reign of the Messiah. The priesthood referred to by the church only assumes what has already been given to Israel as promise. Thus we are all priests and Kings with the Messiah, because that is what the New covenant gives us all, but we are not a formal priesthood, which is a position that will be taken uniquely by the Jewish people.

Yes, the Millennial reign of the Messiah but the Messiah according to Habakkuk 3:13. "The Lord comes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one." The Anointed
One in terms of the People is a reference to Israel as the Messiah. When the Church assumes what has be given to Israel, that's Replacement Theology.

Quote

We the gentiles are adopted members of the family, we may have the same rights as any other son of that family, but we are adopted, not born into the family. we could not replace you even if we wanted to.

I perfectly agree with you that Gentiles will have the same rights as any other son of God's People but only through conversion to Judaism according to Isaiah 56:1-8. They will have even a name better than sons and daughters.


#78    Bluefinger

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 03:03 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 17 May 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure (read, 100% certain) that the actual comment was that he didn't come to change the law but to "fulfil" the Law.  In some ways I suppose there is an element of "adding", but it is not always so, and a corruption of the Bible to suggest otherwise.

Interestingly enough, Paul called the Law good?

If the Law was good, why did Jesus, whom fulfilled it, die?  Its because the sins of the world were laid on Him and the goodness of the Law condemned those sins.

So the Law was fulfilled in Christ.  Deuteronomy 28:1-14 pretty much puts the Abrahamic promises on condition of obeying the Law.  So, only those that obeyed the Mosaic Law after it was handed down could enter into Abraham's inheritance, also called the kingdom of God.  As the author of Hebrews stated, the Promise was originally obtained by faith (demonstrated through the mutilation of the flesh by circumcision of all males on the 8th day.)

Now it was Jesus' flesh that was mutilated and bore the curse of the Law (Deut. 28:15-68 ) so that all that had faith in Him would partake of Him.  If they share in His body and blood, they share in His circumcision, life, death, and resurrection.)

Thus, as Galatians 3:13-14 points out, the Gentiles are includes in the Abrahamic promises, the kingdom of God by faith in Jesus Christ.  This interpretation seems to be the most consistent I've seen yet.



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#79    Ben Masada

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 07:01 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 23 May 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

Mark 16 -9 Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. luke 11-20 Jesus spoke of casting out devils. And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered. But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast [them] out? therefore shall they be your judges. But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. (Mary Magdalene must have had many overafflictions for Jesus to have cast out seven.)

The reference to the "Seven devils" that Jesus is reported to have cast out of Mary Magdalene is to point metaphorically to the struggle that took Jesus to make Mary abandon her style of life in Magdala  and to convert herself to a more decent way to live her life. The reward ended up in her marriage with Jesus. Mary Magdalene used to be a famous courtesan with an international business to serve patrons from abroad who would come to Israel or happened to pass by. Magdala was a fish sea-port in the Northeast of the Sea of Galilee. Mary Magdalene lived two kinds of life. This at her business in Magdala and her private life in Bethany as the sister of Martha and Lazarus.


#80    Jor-el

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:55 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 29 May 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

The reference to the "Seven devils" that Jesus is reported to have cast out of Mary Magdalene is to point metaphorically to the struggle that took Jesus to make Mary abandon her style of life in Magdala  and to convert herself to a more decent way to live her life. The reward ended up in her marriage with Jesus. Mary Magdalene used to be a famous courtesan with an international business to serve patrons from abroad who would come to Israel or happened to pass by. Magdala was a fish sea-port in the Northeast of the Sea of Galilee. Mary Magdalene lived two kinds of life. This at her business in Magdala and her private life in Bethany as the sister of Martha and Lazarus.

You got your information from where exactly? This seems a bit farfetched. Poetic license and all, you cannot for the life of you prove this in any way.

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#81    Jor-el

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:59 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 28 May 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

The text does say exactly as I have reproduced it. The problem is that your Christian pre-conceived notions won't allow you to see the obvious. What you are doing is observing Paul's words in 2 Cor.5:7 that Christians must walk by faith and not by sight. This time I am not going to ask you to read a book by Spinoza but a text in your own NT. That's in Galatians 4:21-31. Especially verse 30 says "To cast out the Sinaitic Covenant and the Jews because they cannot be heirs with the followers of Paul." That's for lack of a better word, Replacement Theology.

Please, give me an example of "our pet interpretation of the Law".

I know. We must quit being Jewish in order to be grafted in. That's Replacement Theology but alas! How can the colors of the rainbow be explained to the blind?

"Superior" and to pass over to the Christian new covenant one must believe as a Christian does or he will lose his Jewish identity. That's Replacement Theology.

Yes, the Millennial reign of the Messiah but the Messiah according to Habakkuk 3:13. "The Lord comes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one." The Anointed
One in terms of the People is a reference to Israel as the Messiah. When the Church assumes what has be given to Israel, that's Replacement Theology.

I perfectly agree with you that Gentiles will have the same rights as any other son of God's People but only through conversion to Judaism according to Isaiah 56:1-8. They will have even a name better than sons and daughters.

No Ben it does not. Spin it however you want, you are incorrect. The time now is not the time of Judaism, it is the time of the gentiles. Your path has been put on hold, not superseded. Your time will restart soon enough.

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#82    Ben Masada

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:11 PM

View PostJor-el, on 29 May 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

You got your information from where exactly? This seems a bit farfetched. Poetic license and all, you cannot for the life of you prove this in any way.

You are right. I could even be assassinated by some fundamentalist Christian if I tried to prove this version beyond the NT evidences about Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Can you prove that Jesus was NOT married? Is there anywhere in the NT a statement to the effect that Jesus was NOT married? If you can find it I'll retract from everything I have stated so far. By the way, in a face-to-face debate I used the NT to prove that Jesus had been born out of an illegitimate birth and I was literally almost murdered. To this day I still check around for inquisitors.

Edited by Ben Masada, 30 May 2013 - 07:12 PM.


#83    Ben Masada

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:23 PM

View PostJor-el, on 29 May 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

No Ben it does not. Spin it however you want, you are incorrect. The time now is not the time of Judaism, it is the time of the gentiles. Your path has been put on hold, not superseded. Your time will restart soon enough.

Jorel, do you remember when I said that a Christian preacher cannot open his or her mouth to teach and he or she will be teaching Replacement Theology? Thank you for confirming my words. You just typed for less than a minute to write this post above and nothing came out but Replacement Theology. "The time for Judaism is over" in other words, it has been replaced by the Gentiles. "Your path has been put on hold." How is this different from being replaced? "Your time will restart soon enough" perhaps when you accept Jesus as your savior. He, he, he, he.... That was funny!

Edited by Ben Masada, 30 May 2013 - 07:23 PM.


#84    Jor-el

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 09:22 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 30 May 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

Jorel, do you remember when I said that a Christian preacher cannot open his or her mouth to teach and he or she will be teaching Replacement Theology? Thank you for confirming my words. You just typed for less than a minute to write this post above and nothing came out but Replacement Theology. "The time for Judaism is over" in other words, it has been replaced by the Gentiles. "Your path has been put on hold." How is this different from being replaced? "Your time will restart soon enough" perhaps when you accept Jesus as your savior. He, he, he, he.... That was funny!

Where did I use the word "over", speed reading is a fast way to get into an accident! :-*

My specific word was "put on hold", interrupted, pause... you get the idea, that is not now or ever will be equivalent to "over."

There goes your theory again out the window for a nice holiday.

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#85    Jor-el

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 09:24 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 30 May 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

You are right. I could even be assassinated by some fundamentalist Christian if I tried to prove this version beyond the NT evidences about Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Can you prove that Jesus was NOT married? Is there anywhere in the NT a statement to the effect that Jesus was NOT married? If you can find it I'll retract from everything I have stated so far. By the way, in a face-to-face debate I used the NT to prove that Jesus had been born out of an illegitimate birth and I was literally almost murdered. To this day I still check around for inquisitors.

I can believe that... sorry about that stupidity on the part of some Christians. And I am a fundamentalist too.

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#86    Ben Masada

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 07:08 PM

View PostJor-el, on 30 May 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

Where did I use the word "over", speed reading is a fast way to get into an accident! :-*

My specific word was "put on hold", interrupted, pause... you get the idea, that is not now or ever will be equivalent to "over."

There goes your theory again out the window for a nice holiday.

"The time now is not for Judaism." How is that different from "Judaism is over?" That's a problem with the members of the literal interpretation club. They can't think beyond the letter.


#87    Ben Masada

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 07:12 PM

View PostJor-el, on 30 May 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

I can believe that... sorry about that stupidity on the part of some Christians. And I am a fundamentalist too.

I know but continents separate us from each other. Just kidding! I know you are a nice guy.


#88    Jor-el

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 08:03 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 31 May 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

"The time now is not for Judaism." How is that different from "Judaism is over?" That's a problem with the members of the literal interpretation club. They can't think beyond the letter.

Simple, and it isn't semantics.

Mankind, all of it, even before Israel existed, once worshipped the Lord. Over time mankind became corrupt and drifted away from the Lords worship and preferred to worship other things. God gave mankind over  to their own desires and placed mankind under the authority of the Divine Council of God, those we call the other gods are mere servants of the almighty. Since mankind didn't want anything to do with God, he placed the gods (the sons of God) in direct authority over mankind and reserved for himself a single man from which a nation would be built. The nation of Israel. They would be his own, his special people.

But God has not forgotten the nations... In Gods plan for mankind, of which Israel plays a central part, God allotted a specific time for Israel which would bring to fruition part of his plan. The plan is not over but it was put on hold for a time which will eventually come to an end, at which point Israel will take center stage again. That putting on hold as I call it, is referred to as the "Dispensation of the Gentiles" also known as "The Dispensation of the Grace of God", a specific time allotted to the gentile world.

The church takes center stage in this period but the church will also cease to exist when this period ends.

All this is based on a specific interpretation of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9.

I am a proponent of what is called Dispensationalism which states that God has given specific time periods for certain events to happen all of which are part of a greater overall plan culminating in the Messiah ruling the world in peace from Israel in a period called the Millennial reign of the Messiah or the Messianic Age.

"Six eons for going in and coming out, for war and peace. The seventh eon is entirely Shabbat and rest for life everlasting"

Purely on  informational note, there are 7 dispensations in Gods plan for mankind, these are:

Innocence (Genesis 1:1–3:7), conscience (Genesis 3:8–8:22), human government (Genesis 9:1–11:32), promise (Genesis 12:1Exodus 19:25), law (Exodus 20:1Acts 2:4), grace (Acts 2:4Revelation 20:3), and the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).

Even further, all these are in fact part of one overall dispensation, called the dispensation of mankind.

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#89    Jor-el

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 08:05 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 31 May 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

I know but continents separate us from each other. Just kidding! I know you are a nice guy.

We are simply on opposite ends of the Mediterranean... :tu: not at all far as crow flies...

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#90    Ben Masada

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 08:20 PM

View PostJor-el, on 31 May 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

Simple, and it isn't semantics.

Mankind, all of it, even before Israel existed, once worshipped the Lord. Over time mankind became corrupt and drifted away from the Lords worship and preferred to worship other things. God gave mankind over  to their own desires and placed mankind under the authority of the Divine Council of God, those we call the other gods are mere servants of the almighty. Since mankind didn't want anything to do with God, he placed the gods (the sons of God) in direct authority over mankind and reserved for himself a single man from which a nation would be built. The nation of Israel. They would be his own, his special people.

But God has not forgotten the nations... In Gods plan for mankind, of which Israel plays a central part, God allotted a specific time for Israel which would bring to fruition part of his plan. The plan is not over but it was put on hold for a time which will eventually come to an end, at which point Israel will take center stage again. That putting on hold as I call it, is referred to as the "Dispensation of the Gentiles" also known as "The Dispensation of the Grace of God", a specific time allotted to the gentile world.

The church takes center stage in this period but the church will also cease to exist when this period ends.

All this is based on a specific interpretation of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9.

I am a proponent of what is called Dispensationalism which states that God has given specific time periods for certain events to happen all of which are part of a greater overall plan culminating in the Messiah ruling the world in peace from Israel in a period called the Millennial reign of the Messiah or the Messianic Age.

"Six eons for going in and coming out, for war and peace. The seventh eon is entirely Shabbat and rest for life everlasting"

Purely on  informational note, there are 7 dispensations in Gods plan for mankind, these are:

Innocence (Genesis 1:1–3:7), conscience (Genesis 3:8–8:22), human government (Genesis 9:1–11:32), promise (Genesis 12:1Exodus 19:25), law (Exodus 20:1Acts 2:4), grace (Acts 2:4Revelation 20:3), and the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).

Even further, all these are in fact part of one overall dispensation, called the dispensation of mankind.

Jorel, you have all the right in the world to name me a paranoid as Replacement Theology is concerned but I must say what I have to: Any Christian attempt at interpreting anything rooted in the Jewish Scriptures is an act of Replacement Theology and I'll keep this "psychic" condition until the Tanach stop being claimed by Christians as an explanation for their existence.  Yes, Mankind used to worship gods but not the Lord before Israel existed. Abraham was the first real Monotheistic "Jew". Then the Flood had to be decreed because Mankind did not know the Lord. No wonder, Israel did not exist yet. Had Israel been around it would not have happened.

Edited by Ben Masada, 01 June 2013 - 08:22 PM.





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