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Why Roswell Happened


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#31    psyche101

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 12:28 AM

View Postbee, on 24 April 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

I know what you mean....but psyche gets all excited about it.....lol

There wasn't much interest on ATS about it, except for a couple of posters encouraging Lost_Shaman.

It only made it to page 2.

Bit over your head I know.

And this is the problem with UFOlogy today. It is not exciting enough for you, as it is based on hard fact, so it barely gets a listen. And you people wonder why you are considered crackpots?

Same happened with Scud, too lazy to analyse the thing, and broad brushes it. You lot are not at all interested in the phenomena, you want the feeling of mystery, the same reason people go to a scary movie. I think such nonsense ought to be restricted to creative writing forums personally.

Posted Image


View Postbee, on 24 April 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

But it was a decent bit of creative speculation.... :D

No, the titbits of nonsense you get all wrapped up in are speculations, this is a working hypothesis based upon actual documents from the time frame, not a night on the drink. But all the same, too much for your conspiracy laden world. Will you be contributing any space hotels shooting death rays at Roswell spaceships this time round? Or just claiming Lenz's law is Anti Gravity yet again? Always something to anticipate I suppose.

And they reckon it is men who do not grow up LOL. That's a two way street and we have the proof in this pudding!

View Postbee, on 24 April 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

I agree..... :tu:


ps....thanks for the OP video



Misinformation and ignorance works for you, nothing new there.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#32    psyche101

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 01:24 AM

View PostScudbuster, on 24 April 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

Just a reminder, I started this thread to discuss the video recollections of Lt. Jack Trowbridge...........and others like him for that matter.

Then please do

1 - Why does Lt. Jack Trowbridge say a bridge game was on when Marcel rolled in, but Marcel only ever recalled waking his wife and son, and said he rolled in ar 2 AM in the morning?
2 - Why does Trowbridge say that the term flying saucer was not in use in 1947 when several headlines do just that such as "General Ramey Empties Flying Saucer"? ("Well, no folks, he didn’t say it was a flying saucer. They didn’t use that word back then. They said flying disk. That’s it.")

Posted ImagePosted Image

3 - Why does Trowbridge keep calling the beams I Beams when Jesse Sr clearly states that is not the case, he says they were square beams and actually disagreed with his son until the day he died about that?




He does not make many claims, but the ones he does make do not make much sense. Why is that?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#33    psyche101

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 01:31 AM

View PostDONTEATUS, on 25 April 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

MAn I want a Horten 229 ! :tu:
Maybe It was four of these that  Happy Arnold saw?

I reckon the co-incidence is incredible, I know that many say "it is impossible to have a Horten at Mr Rainer on 1947" but quite often, those very same people tend to also come up with some rather long winded and spectacularly speculative alternatives, all totally unsupported, but somehow a viable alternative in some minds.  
The co-incidence, if that is not what Arnold saw is astounding.

Posted Image



Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#34    psyche101

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 01:33 AM

View PostTheSearcher, on 24 April 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

To me it seems rather obvious that this is a military clean-up of something that they didn't want  found out at the time. LS's hypothesis is, from what I read, not bad at all.


And it ties in with the Twining Memo very well. I think that's a major in his research.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#35    DONTEATUS

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 02:01 AM

The good thing is it really does not matter It is what it is ! On to tomorrow I say ! :tu:

This is a Work in Progress!

#36    Scudbuster

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:39 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 29 April 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

Then please do

1 - Why does Lt. Jack Trowbridge say a bridge game was on when Marcel rolled in, but Marcel only ever recalled waking his wife and son, and said he rolled in ar 2 AM in the morning?
2 - Why does Trowbridge say that the term flying saucer was not in use in 1947 when several headlines do just that such as "General Ramey Empties Flying Saucer"? ("Well, no folks, he didn’t say it was a flying saucer. They didn’t use that word back then. They said flying disk. That’s it.")

Posted ImagePosted Image

3 - Why does Trowbridge keep calling the beams I Beams when Jesse Sr clearly states that is not the case, he says they were square beams and actually disagreed with his son until the day he died about that?

He does not make many claims, but the ones he does make do not make much sense. Why is that?

Beams, smeams, - whatever - they could have called them girders for all I care.  Nitpicking regarding the many details in remembrances is hardly of major consequence in my mind. Fact is, something quite out of the ordinary occurred way back then. Don't think a major clampdown on any discussion of this event would have ordered over some wayward balloon.


#37    psyche101

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 11:59 PM

View PostScudbuster, on 29 April 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Beams, smeams, - whatever - they could have called them girders for all I care.  Nitpicking regarding the many details in remembrances is hardly of major consequence in my mind. Fact is, something quite out of the ordinary occurred way back then.

You honestly do not sound like you want to look at this case at all, but take an easy path to OMG Alienz.

Whilst you dimiss actual fact that asks questions it seems you cannot answer, not that anyone else can for that matter, what about the other curiosities?

I thought you wanted to discuss these claims, when I point out that there is some rather interesting major discrepancies, you just go "whatever" so I take it that was a lie, and you do not want not discuss their testimonies, or do you only want to discuss these testimonies as though considering that each one (regarding alienz) is completely accurate, even though they seem to contradict each other?

That is hardly nitpicking, you are telling me these people have a perfect recollection of this alleged debris, yet they cannot remember the shape of it? Talk about having your cake and eating it too, I reckon this shows you are heavily biased, and no matter what proof was laid in front of you, you just want aliens to be involved. They are not I am afraid, they are about 30 years late to the party.

Imagine if a skeptic used such a weak excuse to brush alienz away? You lot would be up in arms saying we are trying to hide things, calling it bad research, all sorts of nastiness, but when asked a question yourselves, the answer is "whatever" and you feel that is sufficient to support your wild claim? Believers are not only lacking information, but have no argument of their own. Regurgitating some snippet you stumbled on that impresses only you does not "blow the case open". It's old hat if anything.

View PostScudbuster, on 29 April 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Don't think a major clampdown on any discussion of this event would have ordered over some wayward balloon.

There was little clampdown, MOGUL was hurriedly hushed up, in fact in some ways the opposite happened, and actually,had you really read the Lost Shaman Intel Op's Hypothesis I placed in your lap then you would be quite aware of said discussions that explain the lead up, remember all the balloons with RAWINS that suddenly appeared in the 72 hours surrounding the event?

I also offered you the USAF report, which clearly states that the siad MOGUL train was a classified project. MOGUL was compartmentalised as it was a project used to spy on the Soviets during the cold war, and utilised several departments to achieve a singular goal and was only finally declassified in the early 1970's.
These things had spotter planes and all, they were not a party balloon, and managed to get up to 600 feet long. They were also covered in instruments, many of which have been described in the alleged debris field, among the things reportedly found (as described in many of the Roswell books) was a black box (battery pack), parchment (paper parachutes), Black Bakelight/plastic (ballast tubes were made of plastic), a thermos-like device (Sonobuoy), a tough string-like material (twine), freezer tape with figures (tape used on RAWIN targets), large quantities of rubber (Balloons), paper backed foil (RAWIN foil), and sticks/beams (RAWIN targets). Not one switch, not one resistor, not one engine, not one bit of a control panel, no tech whatsoever exists in any version of debris witness recollection. IN fact, can you please have a look at the descriptions and tell me just what bit is screaming Alien?

  • Maj. Jesse Marcel, during an interview for the movie “UFOs Are Real” in May 1979: “...by the way those symbols were pink and, and purple...”
  • Bessie Brazel Schreiber (Brazel’s daughter): “Sticks, like kite sticks, were attached to some of the pieces with a whitish tape. The tape was about two or three inches wide and had flower-like designs on it. The flowers were faint, a variety of pastel colors...”
  • Loretta Proctor (Brazel’s neighbor): “There was also something he described as tape which had printing on it. The color of the printing was a kind of purple...”
  • Dr. Jesse A. Marcel (Maj. Marcel’s son): “On the inner surface of the I-beam, there appeared to be a type of writing. This writing was a purple-violet hue...”



Or is that "nitpicking" too, and just what would be considered "not nitpicking"?? Going OMG Aleinz is here? It would seem providing supported information pertaining directly to the event is insufficient for a believers purposes?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#38    Scudbuster

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:47 AM

Sorry - when the Deputy base commandeer TJ DuBose says it was cover up ordered from Washington, when Trowbridge says the same thing along with Marcel's testimony, then I do think they are vastly more credible than someone trying to piece together some other "scenario". And please, that Mogul Balloon stuff-  I haven't read about it recently, but I know that crap was blown out of the water years ago. What total BS that is.


#39    psyche101

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:17 AM

View PostScudbuster, on 30 April 2013 - 12:47 AM, said:

Sorry - when the Deputy base commandeer TJ DuBose says it was cover up ordered from Washington, when Trowbridge says the same thing along with Marcel's testimony, then I do think they are vastly more credible than someone trying to piece together some other "scenario".

Well here are his words,


AFFIDAVIT


(1)  My name is Thomas Jefferson Dubose

(2)  My address is:  XXXXXXXXXX


(3)  I retired from the U.S. Air force in 1959 with the rank of Brigadier General.


(4)  In July 1947, I was stationed at Fort Worth Army Air Field [later Carswell Air Force Base] in Fort Worth, Texas.  I served as Chief of Staff to Major General Roger Ramey, Commander, Eight Air Force.  I had the rank of Colonel.


(5)  In early July, I received a phone call from Maj. Gen. Clements McMullen, Deputy Commander, Strategic Air Command.  He asked what we knew about the object which had been recovered outside Roswell, New Mexico, as reported in the press.  I called Col. William Blanchard, Commander of the Roswell Army Air Field and directed him to send the material in a sealed container to me at Fort Worth.  I so informed Maj. Gen. McMullen.


(6)  After the plane from Roswell arrived with the material, I asked the Base Commander, Col. Al Clark, to take possession of the material and to personally transport it in a B-26 to Maj. Gen. McMullen in Washington, D.C.  I notified Maj. Gen. McMullen, and he told me he would send the material by personal courier on his plane to Benjamin Chidlaw, Commanding General of the Air Material Command at Wright Field [later Wright Patterson AFB].  The entire operation was conducted under the strictest secrecy.


(7)   The material shown in the photographs taken in Maj. Gen. Ramey's office was a weather balloon.  The weather balloon explanation for the material was a cover story to divert the attention of the press.


(8)  I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection.


Signed:  T. J. Dubose

Date:  9/16/91


Signature witnessed by:

Linda R. Split

Notary Public, State of Florida


View PostScudbuster, on 30 April 2013 - 12:47 AM, said:

And please, that Mogul Balloon stuff-  I haven't read about it recently, but I know that crap was blown out of the water years ago. What total BS that is.

What a condescending attitude, and yet hypocritically, the believers state they would never stoop to such!

MOGUL is actually a very good explanation, but Lost Shamans Hypothesis fills the small holes this hypothesis leaves behind. It was not ever "blown out of the water" that is just woo woo talk, the crackpots who sit around patting each other on the back about how they "beat the Government" is self righteous claptrap. If anything, such silly statements only show that you have little idea about the incident at all, and clearly you only know the media version of events, which is rather common and the state most people are in and really hardly surprising, but if you think those regurgitated ever changing tales have anything to offer past entertainment value, you are sorely mistaken.

If you feel MOGUL has been "blow out of the water" please feel free to fill us all in, because this seems to be news to me, I only ever heard that rubbish at woo woo sites, and it has been unfounded in each and every case. I tore down CB's dummy claim, with his own information recently. Heck these guys who dump on these reports have not even read them! Have you? I can offer you copies of both reports and the GAO report if you like, I have PDF copies. Just PM me contact details if you want copies. Holy cow man, what is next? The laughable Ramey memo? It certainly is a trip down memory lane, I did not think anyone still believed all these failed attempts at shoehorning Aliens into the Roswell tale.

You are touting the media version of events  which seems to largely avoid actual documents from the time frame, which as you must realise, are the only things one can rely upon in this instance. The plural of anecdote is not data.

Edited by psyche101, 30 April 2013 - 01:20 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#40    Quaentum

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 04:10 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 29 April 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

Going OMG Aleinz is here?


Maybe what they need is a visual to go with the text.  I vote for this one

Posted Image

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#41    Scudbuster

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 08:18 PM

1.  A few things - first off, I don’t care to spend 2,4,8 or whatever hours a day researching this topic on this site and others – for me it’s about 5 minutes day tops. I have far better things to do.

2.  Probably about 95% of all the UFO related claims, observations, etc is BS. It’s the remaining 5% that interests me.

3.  You were not there- these people were. Now maybe time has wrinkled their recollections some, but the fact remains, they were involved – in some fashion- in a highly unusual event. The key difference – they were actually part of this event, you simply sit back and try and string together unrelated or semi related events. Guys like Marcel, DuBose, Trowbridge, Easley, Haut, etc have credibility – you don’t. Their experiences carry far more credible weight than your conjecture.

4.  And finally, here’s an excellent story about Mogul Balloon project and why it no longer has any serious consideration pertaining to this event: http://kevinrandle.b...-was-mogul.html

5.  So continue spinning your yarns if you like, I have far better things to do than read them.


#42    Stardrive

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 10:11 PM

View PostHilander, on 24 April 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

I don't know why the military would make such a big deal over a weather balloon though.  Makes me think possibly there was an alien craft but we will never have solid proof of either.
Maybe at the time they were expecting a surprise balloon attack?

Seriously though, even if there was a recovered alien craft in our possession, it would be a well guarded secret for obvious reasons. The reason given in the youtube vid sounds reasonable enough, I guess. But I would think the main concern would be the world leaders panicing and the global implications. Wars have been fought over a lot less.

Edited by Stardrive, 30 April 2013 - 10:40 PM.

Posted Image

#43    psyche101

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:07 PM

View PostQuaentum, on 30 April 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Maybe what they need is a visual to go with the text.  I vote for this one

I'll put this one up too :D

Posted Image

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#44    Sheep Smart

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:32 PM

i do believe in ufos based on evidence from a reutable source however i have a problem believing something that can travel surpassing light speed can just stall out or crash here. suddenly every country had their own roswell and i think it was so each nation can make one another think they possess some new ultra advanced warfare technology. that area was already established prior to the roswell incident for military testing etc. i imagine it was some crappy lawnmower propelled disk replicaticating that of the typical reported flying saucer disk, who knows for sur.

Edited by Sheep Smart, 30 April 2013 - 11:38 PM.

Other life in the universe?, you dare to imply there are entities possibly far greater than us almighty humans, creators of canned ham and reality tv. Nonsense. Absurd.

   The reality that stupidy exists in abundance doesnt bother me. Its the fact that theres still no cure.

#45    psyche101

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:33 PM

View PostScudbuster, on 30 April 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

1.  A few things - first off, I don’t care to spend 2,4,8 or whatever hours a day researching this topic on this site and others – for me it’s about 5 minutes day tops. I have far better things to do.

Then it's a bit rich of you to tell those who have spent considerable time trying to nut this one out that they have it all wrong, and then tout media versions of the tale that everyone has heard isn't it? If you stop trying to tell me that Aliens are hiding under the Presidents desk for a moment, I might actually be able to expand your real knowledge of the subject with that which I have learned. Why do you take offence to me attempting to assit your knowledge further? It could be a pleasant conversation if you give others a listen you know.

View PostScudbuster, on 30 April 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

2.  Probably about 95% of all the UFO related claims, observations, etc is BS. It’s the remaining 5% that interests me.

Tell me, why is 5% true? Why is it not 20% or 0%?

It is because that seems reasonable to you isn't it? That is the point of the woo woo sites and why they flood their websites with every and any story about a light in the sky. People think that hundreds of thousands of reports exist, when in reality only about 5% if those would probably qualify as even a UFO. Then you take 5% of that which is getting down to a smaller number, and I honestly do not see why natural phenomena cannot explain most, if not all of the remaining.

View PostScudbuster, on 30 April 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

3.  You were not there- these people were. Now maybe time has wrinkled their recollections some, but the fact remains, they were involved – in some fashion- in a highly unusual event. The key difference – they were actually part of this event, you simply sit back and try and string together unrelated or semi related events. Guys like Marcel, DuBose, Trowbridge, Easley, Haut, etc have credibility – you don’t. Their experiences carry far more credible weight than your conjecture.

The real problem is you do not seem to be reading the paper trail these guys left. No, I was not there, neither were you, the advantage I have over you is that I am more aware of the paper trail surrounding Roswell. That tells the story and cannot be biased or affected by memory, this is what happened on the day. I also know both sides of the claim fairly well, which I feel is another advantage over yourself in this regard. That's not a gloat mind you, I am just pointing out that naturally having spent a great deal more time on this case than your good self I would naturally be more aware of the real facts as opposed to the media version. 5 minutes a day is not going to afford you anything else, and I do not hold that against you. Most people are in the exact same position. But I wont let you tell me your 5 minutes a day trumps the efforts I have expended and dismiss the real explanations at the wave of a hand, would you if in my position?

View PostScudbuster, on 30 April 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

4.  And finally, here’s an excellent story about Mogul Balloon project and why it no longer has any serious consideration pertaining to this event: http://kevinrandle.b...-was-mogul.html

Nope, that does not say at all why MOGUL is not a good explanation  I have often said that I find Kevin the best of the bunch with regards to UFOlogists, I have always said he dumbs down Roswell too much. And I never understood what I regard as a somewhat lazy approach to this subject from one who is generally rather thorough. Have you read that ink? It does not say MOGUL is a bad fit, it says that Jesse Marcel and Mack Brazel should have recognised a MOGUL train. However, now you delve into the Lost Shaman Hypothesis, he has put forth a well supported argument that no MOGUL train took off, but a MOGUL service flight of up to 5 balloons. And I do believe this is where te USAF went wrong, and Lost Shaman took the right path.

It is not Kevin's best article at all. In it he ambiguously states that MOGUL was not classified, yet reading a little closer one can interpret this as the balloons and equipment were not classified, and that is indeed correct. The project and telemetry were, not the parts themselves, as they were standard Meteorological items. That is why they had reward tags on them.

Kevin does not debunk MOGUL in any way. He questions the recognition of a MOGUL train. What he also fails to mention is Mack Brazel was clearly after the $3,000.00 reward from the associated press for the recovery of a flying saucer, enough to buy an entire house at te time, and that Jesse Marcel being Intel Ops would say just this according to Lost Shamans Hypothesis and as indicated by the Twining Memo. Always puzzled me Marcel did. Was he really rather dim, or was he the best Intelligence man of all time who took the biggest secret of all to his grave?

View PostScudbuster, on 30 April 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

5.  So continue spinning your yarns if you like, I have far better things to do than read them.

I have given you direct information supported by links and documents from the time frame, I have offered to give you copies of all reports. You can keep banging the woo woo drum, no difference to me, but do not try to tout the papers version of this convoluted tale as fact, because that is simply not the case. Like I said, I have a reasonable knowledge base concerning this incident, I can help you if you like to understand it better, or we can just keep putting up media claims and tearing them down again. What would you rather do?

Edited by psyche101, 30 April 2013 - 11:35 PM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who




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