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Common Sense vs Tolerance


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#31    Babe Ruth

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:45 PM

The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims.  The most perfect slaves, therefore, are those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves, observed Dresden James.

Bill Maher is a perfect example of that.


#32    Kowalski

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:13 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 25 April 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims.  The most perfect slaves, therefore, are those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves, observed Dresden James.

Bill Maher is a perfect example of that.

:tu:  Good post!

Seems to me the MSM is trying to sell this:

"Give the government more of your rights! Those evil muslims are out to kill you! They hate you for your freedom!"

:no:


#33    Kowalski

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 04:22 PM

Check this out: http://news.yahoo.co...-130317602.html

Boston bombing: US Muslims react with fear, frustration, and new resolve

“This will put Islamophobia on steroids,” fears Muqtedar Khan, an associate professor of political science and international relations at the University of Delaware in Newark.

It is, in effect, a fight on American soil for the right to define Islam – with each bomb, shooting, and terrorist plot setting back the efforts of American Muslims to define themselves and to reclaim an embattled faith.

“It is time for us as American Muslims to provide an alternative to Muslim extremism; otherwise, we’ll be defined by it,” says Salam Al-Marayati, president of the Los Angeles-based Muslim Public Affairs Council. “That alternative is the moderate voice, the voice for reform, for the theology of life that Islam stands for as opposed to the cult of death that extremists promote through their distortions of Islam in their ideology.”

Still, reports of reprisals spread, with two of the sources reached for this story reporting vandalism and break-ins at their local mosques. Also, as was widely reported in the Muslim press, a Bangladeshi man was beaten up outside a Bronx Applebee’s restaurant. And in Malden, Mass., a man approached a Muslim woman heading with her daughter in a stroller to a play date, punched her in the shoulder, and shouted, “F--- you Muslims! You are terrorists! I hate you! You are involved in the Boston explosions! F--- you!”

For many Muslims, this is an ugly, if expected, side effect of the attack, and one that brings increasing frustration.

“We are the ones standing up and condemning these horrific acts, ostracizing these cowardly men, and disclaiming them as part of our flock,” Mr. Ba-Yunus writes. “But we bear the brunt of the public's outrage, and it's simply not fair.”


#34    Jessica Christ

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 05:54 PM

We also need our own alternative here, for some of us to become more vocal and condemn the war, the drone attacks, and the common brute who would strike a woman or man here in America just because they are Muslim.


#35    Purifier

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 06:38 PM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 25 April 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

No, the title of this thread can be translated as (populism/anti-intellectualism/common sense) vs (pluralism/scholarship/nuance).

Populism is the rights of the people as opposed to the elite but when we further explore we can see the identify of populists is based on their opposition to some shadowy elite which in turn makes it an expression of one monolothic group which you are either for them or against them. Thus it is based on an us vs them mindest. No room for even other non-elite groups such as minorities or foreigners in general.

In contrast pluralism is based on respecting the rights of all groups as equals or with the mechanisms that will foster greater egalitarianism.

Populists are highly anti-intellectual, they mistrust scholarship, they cast skepticism toward the ivory tower of academia, at its extreme they scorn the academic degreed as being out of touch with reality, and at minimum are hostile to expressions of higher culture (as in a cultured and sophisticated society) in favor of the least common denominator they all can agree upon. They would rather get information from Fox and comedians than from modern scholarship. Who offers more solutions?

Scholarship on the other hand favors nuance and exploration.

Common sense is, "sound practical judgment that is independent of specialized knowledge or training; normal native intelligence."

Common sense served us well in the tribal era but the modern world  demands nuance and sophisticated approaches to solutions.

We won't tackle social problems much less geopolitical ones with the blutness, brutness, and brutality of common sense. Bluntness as in a hammer or rusty knife instead of surgical precision.

No, it's called "critical thinking" through observation, analysis, evaluation, looking at the issue from a third point of view without egocentric or sociocentric bias attitudes. Conclusively deciding that it is what it is, if it smells like a rat, looks like a rat, squeaks like a rat, then it is a rat. No political ideology or political philosophy required. It just that simple.

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#36    Purifier

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 06:39 PM

Damn! Double post, sorry.

Edited by Purifier, 25 April 2013 - 06:40 PM.

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#37    Babe Ruth

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 06:47 PM

View PostKowalski, on 25 April 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

:tu:  Good post!

Seems to me the MSM is trying to sell this:

"Give the government more of your rights! Those evil muslims are out to kill you! They hate you for your freedom!"

:no:

The incessant 'coverage' of the Boston thing is the propaganda machine in overdrive.  24/7 the story is pounded into the public psyche, as history is being written.  And the masses gobble it up.


#38    F3SS

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:06 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 25 April 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:



No, the title of this thread can be translated as (populism/anti-intellectualism/common sense) vs (pluralism/scholarship/nuance).

Populism is the rights of the people as opposed to the elite but when we further explore we can see the identify of populists is based on their opposition to some shadowy elite which in turn makes it an expression of one monolothic group which you are either for them or against them. Thus it is based on an us vs them mindest. No room for even other non-elite groups such as minorities or foreigners in general.

In contrast pluralism is based on respecting the rights of all groups as equals or with the mechanisms that will foster greater egalitarianism.

Populists are highly anti-intellectual, they mistrust scholarship, they cast skepticism toward the ivory tower of academia, at its extreme they scorn the academic degreed as being out of touch with reality, and at minimum are hostile to expressions of higher culture (as in a cultured and sophisticated society) in favor of the least common denominator they all can agree upon. They would rather get information from Fox and comedians than from modern scholarship. Who offers more solutions?

Scholarship on the other hand favors nuance and exploration.

Common sense is, "sound practical judgment that is independent of specialized knowledge or training; normal native intelligence."

Common sense served us well in the tribal era but the modern world  demands nuance and sophisticated approaches to solutions.

We won't tackle social problems much less geopolitical ones with the blutness, brutness, and brutality of common sense. Bluntness as in a hammer or rusty knife instead of surgical precision.
No that's not how the thread title is translated. It is translated verbatim, as it is. Did I not say in the op that part of my frustration is my words being regurgitated by a machine that prints the opposite of everything I say. You prove my point. You make shlt up. If you don't like what you read you just make up something else and say that's what you read. Is pointing out that America has an issue with terrorist who terrorize in the name of a religion called Islam not sound practical judgment that is independent of specialized knowledge or training; normal native intelligence.? It doesn't take a brain surgeon. It takes a child who seen the news. You strive to look intelligent and tolerant but never sensible and achieve neither. You yearn for acceptance from a group who wants you dead. Common sense would serve you well as it serves everything well. Sophisticated solutions need common sense approaches too.

View PostKowalski, on 25 April 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

Check this out: http://news.yahoo.co...-130317602.html

Boston bombing: US Muslims react with fear, frustration, and new resolve

“This will put Islamophobia on steroids,” fears Muqtedar Khan, an associate professor of political science and international relations at the University of Delaware in Newark.

It is, in effect, a fight on American soil for the right to define Islam – with each bomb, shooting, and terrorist plot setting back the efforts of American Muslims to define themselves and to reclaim an embattled faith.

“It is time for us as American Muslims to provide an alternative to Muslim extremism; otherwise, we’ll be defined by it,” says Salam Al-Marayati, president of the Los Angeles-based Muslim Public Affairs Council. “That alternative is the moderate voice, the voice for reform, for the theology of life that Islam stands for as opposed to the cult of death that extremists promote through their distortions of Islam in their ideology.”

Still, reports of reprisals spread, with two of the sources reached for this story reporting vandalism and break-ins at their local mosques. Also, as was widely reported in the Muslim press, a Bangladeshi man was beaten up outside a Bronx Applebee’s restaurant. And in Malden, Mass., a man approached a Muslim woman heading with her daughter in a stroller to a play date, punched her in the shoulder, and shouted, “F--- you Muslims! You are terrorists! I hate you! You are involved in the Boston explosions! F--- you!”

For many Muslims, this is an ugly, if expected, side effect of the attack, and one that brings increasing frustration.

“We are the ones standing up and condemning these horrific acts, ostracizing these cowardly men, and disclaiming them as part of our flock,” Mr. Ba-Yunus writes. “But we bear the brunt of the public's outrage, and it's simply not fair.”

Thing is guys like him have few outspoken comrades. About the best you ever get from public muslim voices is
'yes the bombings are horrific and we are saddened but... Let me tell you what Islam means to me....' And i think they're all full of shlt. The Muslims need more voices like this guy.

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 25 April 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

We also need our own alternative here, for some of us to become more vocal and condemn the war, the drone attacks, and the common brute who would strike a woman or man here in America just because they are Muslim.
Yes the brute. Won't defend him but its funny you can't focus on the 'brutes' who just lit a bomb and killed and maimed kids and 190 other people but you're right. Brutes are today's real issue.

View PostBabe Ruth, on 25 April 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

The incessant 'coverage' of the Boston thing is the propaganda machine in overdrive.  24/7 the story is pounded into the public psyche, as history is being written.  And the masses gobble it up.

I agree with your premise but really what type of coverage is preferable?

Edited by -Mr_Fess-, 26 April 2013 - 12:10 AM.

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#39    acidhead

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 04:36 AM

The odds that you'll be killed in a terrorist strike rates up there with lightning strikes.  It's a low percentage.  It's important to recognize why these incidences happen rather than foolishly jumping to irrational conclusions.  We're involved in a manufactured so-called War on Terror which can be reversed through communication with the so-called enemy.  Open dialogue has been and forever will be the transmitter of peace.

"there is no wrong or right - just popular opinion"

#40    Babe Ruth

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:58 PM

Mr. Fess

The type of coverage desireable is a dispassionate analysis of what we know at the time.

But all the coverage on this event is very passionate.  It inflames the passions, whether fear or hatred, of those watching the coverage.  That reveals its propaganda value.


#41    Kowalski

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:40 PM

Quote

Thing is guys like him have few outspoken comrades. About the best you ever get from public muslim voices is
'yes the bombings are horrific and we are saddened but... Let me tell you what Islam means to me....' And i think they're all full of shlt. The Muslims need more voices like this guy.

View PostBabe Ruth, on 26 April 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

Mr. Fess

The type of coverage desireable is a dispassionate analysis of what we know at the time.

But all the coverage on this event is very passionate.  It inflames the passions, whether fear or hatred, of those watching the coverage.  That reveals its propaganda value.

You hit the nail on the head. The MSM isn't reporting all the Muslims who are outraged and shocked at the behavior of the bombers, because it doesn't fit their agenda on the so-called "War on Terror".

Quote

“Islamic law does not permit the random, indiscriminate killing of civilians. It is categorically forbidden,” says Omid Safi, a professor of Islamic studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, in a Religion News Service blog post. “[W]e should not conflate their deranged motivations and the teachings of the Islamic tradition.”
In the same breath, some Muslims have expressed frustration with the perceived need to explain and apologize for the alleged actions of the suspects.
“The Tsarnaev brothers’ ... actions do not speak for me or the overwhelming majority of Muslims. I am not compelled to apologize for them or explain their actions,” says Wajahat Ali, a Muslim-American writer and cultural commentator, in an article for Salon. “This is like asking Republican Christians to apologize for Timothy McVeigh or expecting young white males to explain why individuals like Adam Lanza ... used assault rifles to unleash terror on innocent civilians.”
And what of reports that the elder Tsarnaev, who some say turned to Islam after a youth apparently spent drinking, womanizing, and smoking pot, may have been motivated by extremist tendencies?
By and large, Muslims are suspicious, questioning media accounts that Mr. Tsarnaev had become devout – and that this was the reason for his unraveling.
“Without so much as even the slightest indication from the [alleged] bombers themselves as to what their motives were, the media is going crazy and thus raising the public's fears about Islamic radicalization,” Ba-Yunus writes. “I think we all need to focus on Tamerlan's other issues – like his apparent inability to fit in, his aggressive streak, his isolation, his xenophobic behavior. These are things shared by other mass murderers, and should be studied in greater detail.”

Quote

“I don’t care if you call yourself Muslim," Ms. Abu-Jubara says. If you just killed innocent people, "in my eyes you’re not Muslim,” she says. “True Islam does not call for acts of violence, especially not ones on innocent people.”
Adds Yusufi Vali, executive director of the Islamic Society of Boston Cultural Center, in an interview with CNN: “I don't care who or what [the alleged] criminals claim to be, but I can never recognize [them] as part of my city or my faith community.”
In fact, at least one Boston cleric, Imam Talal Eid, has refused to bury the elder Tsarnaev according to Islamic rites. “I would not be willing to do a funeral for him," he told The Huffington Post. "This is a person who deliberately killed people. There is no room for him as a Muslim.”
Still, the Muslim community appears to understand the need to confront radicalism within its ranks.
“Radicalism is a problem because even if it recruits one person, that’s one person too many,” says Mr. Al-Marayati of the Muslim Public Affairs Council. “Some 0.1 percent of radicals are relevant to American society, whereas 99.9 percent of Muslims remain irrelevant. We have to change that equation.”
In fact, according to a Muslim American Public Opinion Survey, religious Muslims are actually less likely to engage in anti-American extremism, and “mosques and religiosity are associated with high levels of civic engagement and support for the American political system.”



#42    Kowalski

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 01:38 AM

Quote

Muslims see little backlash after Boston bombing



NEW YORK (AP) — It looked like the backlash was starting even before the suspects in the Boston Marathon bombing were identified as Muslim.
Hours after the explosions, a Bangladeshi man told police he was dubbed an "Arab" and beaten in New York. A veiled Muslim woman in a city near Boston said she was struck in the shoulder and called a terrorist. When the public learned days later that the FBI was pursuing two Muslim men of Chechen descent, American Muslims feared the worst.
But the worst didn't happen.
Muslim civil rights leaders say the anti-Islam reaction has been more muted this time than after other attacks since Sept. 11, which had sparked outbursts of vandalism, harassment and violence. Ibrahim Hooper of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, which monitors bias and hate crimes against Muslims, said his organization has seen no uptick in reports of harassment, assaults or damage to mosques since the April 15 bombings. Leaders noted a larger, broader chorus of Americans warning against placing collective blame.
The change may only reflect the circumstances of this particular attack. The two suspects are white and from an area of the world, Russia's turbulent Caucasus region, that unlike the Mideast, Americans know little about. Investigators say Tamerlan Tsarnaev, 26, and his brother, Dzhokhar, 19, who had lived in the U.S. for about a decade, carried out the bombings, although it's not clear why.
But U.S. Muslims also credit a new generation of leaders in their communities with helping keep tempers in check after the attack. Many are the American-born children of immigrants who saw the impact of the 2001 terror attacks on their faith and have strived ever since to build ties with other Americans.
"There seems to be a much more mature, sophisticated response to this tragedy than in the past 12 years," said Wajahat Ali, 32, an attorney and co-author of "Fear, Inc.," a report by the Center for American Progress on the strategies of anti-Muslim groups in the United States. "We really do see a palpable shift."


Check this out too:

Quote


"Trust me — no group of people wants to stamp out radicalism more than Muslims, who have seen it soil their faith and define its image," said Khurram Dara, 24, author of "The Crescent Directive," a well-known e-book urging U.S. Muslims to more fully integrate into American society. "They're vigilant of radicalism in their communities."
The message was driven home by a case this week in Canada. Investigators there said they thwarted a plan by two men, guided by al-Qaida in Iran, to derail a train between New York City and Montreal because a local Muslim leader alerted them to the threat. The leader, Muhammad Robert Heft, said the father of one of the two suspects had come forward with concerns about his son's intolerant religious views. A 2011 study of American Muslim terrorism by the Triangle Center for Terrorism and Homeland Security found U.S. Muslims were the largest single source of tips to law enforcement that year for terrorist plots.
Sheila Musaji of St. Louis, editor of TheAmericanMuslim.org, which she founded as a community magazine in 1989, said more Muslims are online and actively countering extremist preachers. "There are these crazy groups out there. It's hard to know when they cross some sort of line into something else that involves violence," Musaji said.
"They need to be countered," she said, "but also the lslamophobes need to be countered."
Because along with progress in recent years, Muslims can point to better organized efforts to condemn their religion.
For example, in Murfreesboro, Tenn., opposition to a mosque has become an ideological and religious conflict that has dragged on for more than three years and spilled over into local public schools. Since 2010, bills have been proposed in more than 30 state legislatures that would restrict consideration of religious law or foreign law in local courts. The bills are similar or identical to a model drafted by activists who contend Muslims, by stealth, want to replace the American legal system with Islamic law, or shariah.

Taken from: http://news.yahoo.co...-195735937.html


#43    F3SS

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 02:01 AM

  A 2011 study of American Muslim terrorism by the Triangle Center for Terrorism and Homeland Security found U.S. Muslims were the largest single source of tips to law enforcement that year for terrorist plots.

Well of course they are. They're the most likely to come across that type of information. That's not saying much.

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#44    Glorfindel

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 02:12 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 25 April 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

No, the title of this thread can be translated as (populism/anti-intellectualism/common sense) vs (pluralism/scholarship/nuance).


Don't even give us that crap, "anti-intellectualism". I hate to break it to you but thinking with your feelings, discarding critical thinking in politics and using circular logic do not make you a scholar. You see, I can make an ad hominem too!

Edited by Glorfindel, 27 April 2013 - 02:15 AM.


#45    Thanato

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 02:36 AM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 27 April 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

  A 2011 study of American Muslim terrorism by the Triangle Center for Terrorism and Homeland Security found U.S. Muslims were the largest single source of tips to law enforcement that year for terrorist plots.

Well of course they are. They're the most likely to come across that type of information. That's not saying much.

You do seem to be fairly close minded. You attack a religion based on the actions of a minority.

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