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Making Peace - How to Build Trust


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#1    and then

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 12:14 PM

Much discussion here on the faults of both parties in the M.E. conflict.  Truest indication of who wants peace can be gleaned by watching the behavior of the parties.  Israeli settlers and their representatives in the Knesset push to keep building in Judea and Samaria and claim it as their ancestral home and their rightful possession regardless the more recent tenants.  The Palestinians reject any Jewish claim on the land at all...period.  There is a relatively lively peace movement in Israel - an entire newspaper dedicated to finding fault with the "Jewish" claim of the land (Haaretz) yet no movement of any size or duration is visible among the Palestinians.  Instead we have things like this:
http://www.ynetnews....4372291,00.html

If there are similar examples of Jewish behavior could someone produce them?  I would be interested to see them.  This article explains the great flaw I see in the logic of those who say the Palestinians want peace.  I cannot see how it is possible to encourage people to take risks for peace when their enemies are actively teaching the next generation to hate and even to kill efficiently.  If I'm wrong in this, could someone explain it to me?  How does one "unteach" hatred to a child?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#2    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:14 PM

The claim that Judea is the Jewish homeland is mythical nonsense.  Jews (actually who was actually there is even now unknown) lived there but so did Palestinians (aka Philistines) from earliest times.  Most of the story of Israel is pure myth invented by priests under Persian dominion, from perhaps a few documents that predate the exile but none of which were written less than half a millennium after the events they portray.

This is all beside the point.  There now exists an internationally recognized state of Israel, a democracy in the Middle East, to boot.  They may have come into possession in the early 20th century via semi-legal (but not really illegal -- it was mostly by purchase and then after those who were there got attacked through self-defense expulsions).  This is two generations ago.  Most of the present inhabitants were born there.

I dare say except maybe for Iceland there is not a country on the planet whose people don't have similarly challengeable claims to the land they now occupy.

The problem is not Israelis building settlements.  That is about the only real bargaining chip they have for short-term arrangements.  I dare say a two (or three-state if the Gazans can't get it on with the rest of Palestine) solution could be signed tomorrow except for Palestinian intransigence.  The only really serious problem is the city of Jerusalem, which I suppose would have to be internationalized.


#3    and then

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:48 PM

Jerusalem probably will at some point become an "international" city.  My view of the problem is that neither side wants to give up the land but the Palestinians are the most entrenched and unwilling to budge.  If it were otherwise they could have had peace some time ago.  Albeit on less than ALL the land.  My purpose for the thread though was to explore everyone's thoughts on what steps could be taken by BOTH sides to create trust so that a process could move forward.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#4    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:09 PM

In my trips to the States and Europe, and to Thailand and Japan, I have had dealings with numerous educated Muslims.  Those who live in Europe or the States sometimes will, once they get to know you, give you an earful, and tend to be far more anti-Muslim than former Catholics are anti-Catholic, but they still keep up appearances ("for the sake of my family").  This has not happened to me with any who still live in Muslim countries.  They remain devout (except a few Malays I know who have dropped strong hints now and then that it's okay with them if we share a few beers).


#5    Kowalski

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:29 PM

Posted Image


Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with ME....

Edited by Kowalski, 25 April 2013 - 02:31 PM.


#6    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 06:04 AM

The only thing that'll get the Israelis to stop shooting is the return of Torahnic (is that a word?) Israel.
The only thing that'll get the Palestinians to stop shooting is Israel packing up and going somewhere else.

Neither's going to happen.
Maybe if we all stop funding both sides, embargo the entire region and so on then maybe they'll stop shooting each other and start talking about shooting us.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#7    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 01:48 PM

Well for peace to happen, both sides would actually want to have peace :whistle:


#8    SCFan

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 07:54 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 28 April 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

The only thing that'll get the Israelis to stop shooting is the return of Torahnic (is that a word?) Israel.
The only thing that'll get the Palestinians to stop shooting is Israel packing up and going somewhere else.

Neither's going to happen.
Maybe if we all stop funding both sides, embargo the entire region and so on then maybe they'll stop shooting each other and start talking about shooting us.

Yes those are the extremes. I believe peace can be achieved though it may be slow-going, is if Israel remove their occupation and its military law over the Palestinians , dismantle all the settlements, make motions to compensate the Palestinians for the loss of their generational ancestral family homes, lands, and farms due to the 1948 war and Nakba, and grant the 5 million  refugees the right of return.

Edited by B Jenkins, 28 April 2013 - 08:19 PM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#9    SCFan

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 08:31 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 25 April 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

The claim that Judea is the Jewish homeland is mythical nonsense.  Jews (actually who was actually there is even now unknown) lived there but so did Palestinians (aka Philistines) from earliest times.  Most of the story of Israel is pure myth invented by priests under Persian dominion, from perhaps a few documents that predate the exile but none of which were written less than half a millennium after the events they portray.

This is all beside the point.  There now exists an internationally recognized state of Israel, a democracy in the Middle East, to boot.  They may have come into possession in the early 20th century via semi-legal (but not really illegal -- it was mostly by purchase and then after those who were there got attacked through self-defense expulsions).  This is two generations ago.  Most of the present inhabitants were born there.

Incorrect, that is PC Zionist myths we are taught in school. Read and research "Plan Dalet". Please remember, the Arab-Israeli war officially began on May 15, 1948. The Plan Dalet operations were where the Zionists terrorized, propagandized, and massacred the Palestinians which cause the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to flee for their lives. Remember, the Israeli-Arab war (aka The War Of Indendence) began on May 15, 1948. For greater context, the Deir Yassin massacre occured on April 9, 1948. The War wasn't really an invasion as we were taught in school but rather an intervention by fact of the reason, 60% of Israeli casualties in the 1948 war occurred on land partitioned to Palestinians by the UN. It was an Arab intervention moreso than an invasion.  

Posted Image

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#10    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 09:21 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 28 April 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

Yes those are the extremes. I believe peace can be achieved though it may be slow-going, is if Israel remove their occupation and its military law over the Palestinians , dismantle all the settlements, make motions to compensate the Palestinians for the loss of their generational ancestral family homes, lands, and farms due to the 1948 war and Nakba, and grant the 5 million  refugees the right of return.
So it's all Israel's fault?
If you're going to peel back to "root causes" then it's the fault of the Allied Nations and the UN (or was it still the League of Nations then?) who made Israel and put it there.
Or maybe it's God's fault for deciding that that part of the world is where His Chosen people should live.

Or maybe, just MAYBE, for the shooting to stop both sides needs to say "yeap, we don't good and we done evil. Lets make tomorrow good" and stop shooting each other.
But that's just crazy talk. We need to apport blame. We need to find victims and villains rather then look for ways of moving forward. Concede that things have changed since the time of their grandfathers, the time of their fathers, since yesterday things have changed. Concessions aren't going to change them back unless they can bring people back to life.
Is Israel pulling out of the "contested territories" going to resurrect the dead? Is it going to undo decades of hate?

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#11    and then

and then

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 10:22 PM

It's an endless, useless argument that even I, yep, I, am getting tired of.  Unfortunately the world cannot ignore it forever no matter how much it tries.  These folks intend to make it EVERYONE'S fight eventually.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#12    SCFan

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 07:26 AM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 28 April 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

So it's all Israel's fault?

If you're going to peel back to "root causes" then it's the fault of the Allied Nations and the UN (or was it still the League of Nations then?) who made Israel and put it there.
Or maybe it's God's fault for deciding that that part of the world is where His Chosen people should live.

Plan Dalet operations and the 1948 war caused 750,000 Palestinian refugees, the 1967 war caused an additional 250,000 Palestinian refugees (some became refugees for a second time) and began Isreal's 46 year occupation of the West Bank and east Jerusalem where the settlers in the settlements live under Israel's judiciary while the occupied Palestinians live under Israel's military law. These refugees have grown to the excess 5 million souls today.

Yes there is plenty of blame to go around, though I believe little of it has to do with God. The Bible plainly states the Jews or rather the Zionists have no right to the land unless they fulfill these set of preconditions:

But it shall come  about, if you will not obey the Lord your God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes with which I charge you today, that all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you. Deuteronomy 28:15

This excludes their Talmud which in modern Judaism places above the Torah. Talmud is a piece of idolatrous literature anyways with its elevation of the Jews and there's shocking anti-Christian passages within it too.  

Quote

Or maybe, just MAYBE, for the shooting to stop both sides needs to say "yeap, we don't good and we done evil. Lets make tomorrow good" and stop shooting each other.
But that's just crazy talk. We need to apport blame. We need to find victims and villains rather then look for ways of moving forward. Concede that things have changed since the time of their grandfathers, the time of their fathers, since yesterday things have changed. Concessions aren't going to change them back unless they can bring people back to life.
Is Israel pulling out of the "contested territories" going to resurrect the dead? Is it going to undo decades of hate?

Israel pulling out of the occupied territories would be the process of righting many wrongs. In fact, many experts have stated that the biggest obstacles to peace between Israel and the Palestinians is the occupation, the settlements, and the refugees right of return specifically. In other words, these three things need to be dealt with.

I really like the Zionist quotes in this video from 00:56-3:50


"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).




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