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What are we really doing Afghanistan?


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#16    Irrelevant

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 08:11 AM

It's hard to say Nefer-Ankhe

War is always going to be ugly.

I really respect the USA for what there doing. Very Brave!  Isn't that why we love movies like Gladiator and the such? We see the bravery as inspirational, we see his struggle and so desperately want him to win because he's good. Takes on all comers but ultimately dies,  we see this in brave knights,in movies like Rocky...for me I see it in Jesus.

This is same as on a battlefield, its hoped the afghan men see the bravery of these Soldiers fighting for them, taking on the Taliban,They want the Afghan men to say in there hearts " this is for my people!" They want them inspired to uprise against the Taliban and fight for freedom.

We all want to see afghan people get the victory, to be free.  To see there men woman and children are no longer raped or killed by the Taliban.

Are they making the situation better? Off course! It's not there courage that's wavering, not the soldiers, it's ours. This is another Vietnam in the waiting,  just bowing down to political and media  pressure.


Those who don't understand the mistakes of the past are destined to repeat them.


#17    Yes_Man

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 08:58 AM

Looking for Unicorns?
If there was no invasion and the collapse of the Soviet Union, nothing would change only the taliban would be weaker


#18    Nefer-Ankhe

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:13 AM

Quote

Are they making the situation better? Off course! It's not there courage that's wavering, not the soldiers, it's ours.

Of course you say? Perhaps we should forget about ourselves for a second here, and think about the people who are actually within this country, living with this on a day-to-day basis.

I for one, do not think America (and the other countries) whom got involved, would have made much alteration upon these countries (especially Afghan) whether they had intervened or not. Ultimately, America will eventually retreat from Afghanistan and whether they made such a positive impact or not, only time will tell...
Hopefully all these innocent civilian lives that were lost, were not lost for pure prestige and nothingness...

"It is of course the height of irony that, after this intensive campaign to expunge them from the annals of Egypt, the Amarna pharaohs are today probably the most recognized of all the country's ancient rulers."

--- from Amarna Sunset, Aidan Dodson.

#19    docyabut2

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:39 AM

2001-2003.

Between 3,100 and 3,600 civilians were directly killed by the U.S Operation Enduring Freedom bombing and Special Forces attacks between Oct. 7 2001 and Jun. 3 2003. This however only accounts for the "impact deaths"- deaths in the immediate aftermath of an explosion or shooting- and does not count deaths that occurred later as a result of injuries sustained, or deaths that occurred as an indirect consequence of the U.S. airstrikes and invasion.



If I`m not mistaken was `t there a war already going on between the Northerrn Alliance and the Taliban before the US and Special Forces of  the United Kingdom, Australia, France, Canada, and the Afghan United Front (Northern Alliance) won over the Talbiban that were haboring bin laden, You seem to only contribute the deaths to the US. Afrgan people were also fighting and killing for their freedom from the Taliban and still are.



http://en.wikipedia....(2001"present)


http://en.wikipedia...._of_Afghanistan

Edited by docyabut2, 26 April 2013 - 09:40 AM.


#20    Irrelevant

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:47 AM

The Allies have built schools and other community projects such as bridges, dug wells, they have trained a police force. Also they have democracy. These aspects are still in there infancy but they exist where once there wasn't any.











#21    Irrelevant

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:57 AM

View PostNefer-Ankhe, on 26 April 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:



Of course you say? Perhaps we should forget about ourselves for a second here, and think about the people who are actually within this country, living with this on a day-to-day basis.

Well I couldn't have said that better, and perhaps it should be applied to those who would rather paint a picture based on prejudice rather than being objective.

I haven't read a objective post yet, you strike me as somebody who is clever. Perhaps it's  environmental that sees  you take such a dim view towards the Allies effort ?

Do you really think they've done nothing?

Edited by Irrelevant, 26 April 2013 - 09:58 AM.


#22    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:07 AM

Maybe you haven't read an objective post yet because there is no way to be objective.  The world is as they say between a rock and a hard place, and no matter what it does bad things are likely to follow.

I strongly doubt the claims of all the good things the West has done, and forsee them all destroyed shortly after they leave.


#23    Nefer-Ankhe

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:10 AM

Quote

You seem to only contribute the deaths to the US.

Because I'm making a point of it... what is the justification for the statements below, if the core reason as to why these countries are in Afghanistan is to help and protect the people?

-February 12, 2010 – 5 Afghan civilians including two pregnant women and a teenage girl were killed when US special forces raided a house in Khataba village, outside the city of Gardez where dozens of people had gathered at the home to celebrate the naming of a newborn baby. The U.S troops tried to cover-up evidence of the botched raid and admitted only month later that they had killed the civilians.

-Three civilians showed up at a Kandahar hospital with gunshot wounds, claiming they had been shot at by a Canadian convoy. One of them later died of his injuries.

-Two women and two children were killed in Pakistan by cross border shelling fired by US forces in Afghanistan.

-Australian special forces soldiers killed 5 Afghan children in an attack on a compound in the Uruzgan province of southern Afghanistan. It was decided that no charges were to be brought against two Australian soldiers who killed five afghan children.

-Seven children and a young adult were killed by an ISAF airstrike in the village of Geyaba in the eastern Afghan province of Kapisa.

and many more similar, civilian deaths, many of which involve children.

"It is of course the height of irony that, after this intensive campaign to expunge them from the annals of Egypt, the Amarna pharaohs are today probably the most recognized of all the country's ancient rulers."

--- from Amarna Sunset, Aidan Dodson.

#24    Nefer-Ankhe

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:14 AM

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Do you really think they've done nothing?

There is no doubt in my mind that the allies have done something good for Afghanistan and their people, that is evident. However does the good really out rule the bad or vise versa?

Edited by Nefer-Ankhe, 26 April 2013 - 10:15 AM.

"It is of course the height of irony that, after this intensive campaign to expunge them from the annals of Egypt, the Amarna pharaohs are today probably the most recognized of all the country's ancient rulers."

--- from Amarna Sunset, Aidan Dodson.

#25    Irrelevant

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:37 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 April 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Maybe you haven't read an objective post yet because there is no way to be objective.  The world is as they say between a rock and a hard place, and no matter what it does bad things are likely to follow.

I strongly doubt the claims of all the good things the West has done, and forsee them all destroyed shortly after they leave.

Unfortunately that may happen, Vietnam was a tragic example.

However if the Taliban come back so will the Allies, as it was already stated by the 3eyed cat that we need to feel safe, we won't if Afghanistan becomes a training ground for terrorists again, and if they go back, like Iraq they will have the sack finally for a follow through and full offensive.

Vietnam never got this favour because it was not a breading ground for extremists with agenda.

Edited by Irrelevant, 26 April 2013 - 10:38 AM.


#26    Irrelevant

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:53 AM

View PostNefer-Ankhe, on 26 April 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:



Because I'm making a point of it... what is the justification for the statements below, if the core reason as to why these countries are in Afghanistan is to help and protect

-Australian special forces soldiers killed 5 Afghan children in an attack on a compound in the Uruzgan province of southern Afghanistan. It was decided that no charges were to be brought against two Australian soldiers who killed five afghan children

and many more similar, civilian deaths, many of which involve children.

This is the official report on that

AUSTRALIAN special forces soldiers have killed five children in an attack on a compound in Afghanistan.

The tragedy has triggered a strong warning from the Afghan Government that civilian deaths are playing into the hands of the Taliban.

Afghan ambassador Amanullah Jayhoon said his Government was very concerned that the Australians had not co-ordinated the operation with Afghan security forces.

The ambassador said 1000 civilians were killed by Coalition forces last year and such killings were eroding support for the Afghan Government.

Advertisement
"There is no doubt that the Australian troops are doing their best in a very difficult and dangerous place," the ambassador told the Nine Network.

The Australian Defence Force chief of joint operations, Lieutenant-General Mark Evans, said the soldiers were involved in an operation in Oruzgan province, southern Afghanistan, in darkness early on Thursday.

"During the conduct of this operation there was an exchange of fire between our forces and the Taliban," General Evans said.

"Tragically, a number of people were killed and wounded during this incident."

A suspected insurgent was killed along with five Afghan children. No Australians were hurt.

Australians operated under strict rules of engagement and set out to avoid civilian casualties at all times, General Evans said.

"The Taliban operate within the civilian community. We do everything we can to avoid civilian casualties and deeply regret the loss of innocent life."

The ADF has launched an investigation, which would take several weeks to complete, he said.



Read more: http://www.theage.co...l#ixzz2RZ7dz5NN


#27    Irrelevant

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:59 AM

Rember there wouldn't be a govt at all if the allies weren't there.. I can assure you the Taliban are a much more savage group ...

So 5 kids died here unfortunately yes.

But if they weren't there you might find 5 kids die every day, and many more atrocities like rape and other such things...after all, soldiers in large camps like the Taliban will desire to go with woman and young men and kids and won't have anybody to defend them!


#28    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:03 AM

I don't defend the Taliban, and very much want to see them defeated, but be realistic.  They are blue-nosed male chauvinists, not pedophiles and rapists.


#29    Irrelevant

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:21 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 April 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

I don't defend the Taliban, and very much want to see them defeated, but be realistic.  They are blue-nosed male chauvinists, not pedophiles and rapists.

Frank, the truth on all this is to sickening for the populace. However the fact that a afgan security force and Govt exist at all really is all that needs to be said to answer the OP.


#30    Jeffertonturner

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:25 AM

View PostIrrelevant, on 26 April 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

You ask:

why there there

I've told you, besiegement


Do you think the military is a flower power movement that's going to walk in there and start giving to the Taliban carnation gift baskets?

This is a generational shift, the landscape and world has changed in this last 10 or so years..the instigators of this war proposed this at the beginning if you remember..
If you think this only started 10 years ago, you really don't know much of what is happening.

~Life goes by pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while -and do whatever you want all the time -you can miss it.~




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