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AZ declares gold & silver legal tender


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#16    questionmark

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 08:09 PM

View PostGromdor, on 01 May 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

Passing this law will also help increase the value of gold.  It will be used for something other than just shiny decoration.  Had I invested in gold I would push for this as well.

Your problem is that several central banks are also going to dump some gold (besides Cyprus), so expect the price to decline a little more.

The current gold price only works with a limited amount of "real" gold on the market (as opposed to the "paper gold" most invested in), once that contingent changes slightly (and the Cyprus gold valued only at 400 million is laughable compared to the gold mined every year) the price makes hard up and down swings. Good investment for gambler, bad investment for those who want to keep their money together and an even worse investment for those who might have to rely on their savings in the future.

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#17    questionmark

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 08:11 PM

View PostYamato, on 01 May 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

When you can print boundless amounts of "money" you ensure continuous erosion of real value.

Paper deteriorates in air; fiat deteriorates in time.   Gold has stored value for 6,000 years.  What fiat has survived that long?   Not even one?   Wow!   That should teach you something, but based on your replies, it doesn't.  

I can't store a barrel of oil in my basement, but I can store gold in my safe.   I could also put "money" under my mattress and how stupid is that?

Gold has not stored value for over 6000 years, gold had a highly volatile value through most of history depending on its availability. But the guy who sold you the "gold certificates" might have told you otherwise. In fact, whole economies went down the drain because there was suddenly too much gold (see Spain in the 17th century).

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#18    Babe Ruth

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 08:16 PM

View PostOverSword, on 01 May 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

From the article:

The Arizona Senate on Tuesday approved a measure to make gold and silver legal currency in the state, in a response to what backers said was a lack of confidence in the international monetary system.
The legislation cleared the Republican-controlled Senate by an 18-10 vote after being approved by the state House earlier this month. It now goes to Republican Governor Jan Brewer, who has not indicated if she will sign it into law or veto it.
The bill calls for Arizona to make gold and silver coins and bullion legal tender beginning in mid-2014, joining existing U.S. currency issued by the federal government.
If signed into law, Arizona would become the second state in the nation to establish these precious metals as legal tender. Utah approved such legislation in 2011.

What are the other 48 states waiting for

http://www.reuters.c...N0DI00Z20130501

Section 10 of Article I of the USC prohibits states from coining money, but it does allow them to make gold or silver 'tender' in payment of debt.

It will be interesting to see how this plays.


#19    Jessica Christ

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 09:19 PM

Here is what the FBI has to say about the Sovereign Citizens Movement.

Quote

One prevalent sovereign-citizen theory is the Redemption Theory, which claims the U.S. government went bankrupt when it abandoned the gold standard basis for currency in 1933 and began using citizens as collateral in trade agreements with foreign governments. 2 These beliefs can provide a gateway to illegal activity because such individuals believe the U.S. government does not act in the best interests of the American people. By announcing themselves as sovereign citizens, they are emancipated from the responsibilities of being a U.S. citizen, including paying taxes, possessing a state driverís license, or obeying the law.

http://www.fbi.gov/s...s#disablemobile

McVeigh also believed in these conspiracy theories, was pulled over for not having a license plate, and these ideas (anti-Semitic in origin = Jewish international bankers are destroying the nation from within) most likely are connected to the Tea Party inspired legislation.



#20    third_eye

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:13 PM

Usurers makes for a poor victim methinks .... and is against all manners of laws and decency

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#21    Yamato

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:22 AM

View Postquestionmark, on 01 May 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

Gold has not stored value for over 6000 years, gold had a highly volatile value through most of history depending on its availability. But the guy who sold you the "gold certificates" might have told you otherwise. In fact, whole economies went down the drain because there was suddenly too much gold (see Spain in the 17th century).
Volatility through history is a compliment as opposed to fiats getting run into the ground one after the other.   It's not volatile anymore after it's gone to zero and ancient history though and that's the insult.

If you find something that didn't have a volatile value "throughout history" you let me know what that is.  Fiats never made it throughout history, they last as long as their governments and no longer.  Maybe someone sold you some Saddam Hussein money on Ebay and you bought it as an investment.  I'm sure it's worth more now as a conversation piece than it was when his government went down the toilet.

The resistance to there being "too much gold" is how difficult it is to produce.   You can get a roll of paper, cut it into rectangles after printing whatever nominal value on the face of the bill you want.  Make it a trillion dollar bill and so what?  Its cost of production wasn't any higher than the one or the five.   This is the folly of fiat.  If you want a trillion dollars of gold you have to have a trillion dollars of gold, not a piece of paper that says you do.  If you cared about having too much of what's used as money you'd be able to acknowledge the growth of the money supply and central banks across the world going gangbusters on their printing presses.  If you cared about the worthlessness of "certificates" in general you'd actually be skeptical of those "Federal Reserve Notes" that you're convinced is real money.  It's really worth about 95% less than it used to be, but it's not "volatile" so that's okay?  Sorry I'll take volatility over a veritable dive to zero any day.   If prices aren't going up and down, something is wrong.   If you're scared of volatility I don't know what's wrong with you.   Hang out in money markets and enjoy that 0.2% interest.  No volatility!  What a deal.

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#22    questionmark

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 12:07 PM

View PostYamato, on 02 May 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Volatility through history is a compliment as opposed to fiats getting run into the ground one after the other.   It's not volatile anymore after it's gone to zero and ancient history though and that's the insult.

If you find something that didn't have a volatile value "throughout history" you let me know what that is.  Fiats never made it throughout history, they last as long as their governments and no longer.  Maybe someone sold you some Saddam Hussein money on Ebay and you bought it as an investment.  I'm sure it's worth more now as a conversation piece than it was when his government went down the toilet.

The resistance to there being "too much gold" is how difficult it is to produce.   You can get a roll of paper, cut it into rectangles after printing whatever nominal value on the face of the bill you want.  Make it a trillion dollar bill and so what?  Its cost of production wasn't any higher than the one or the five.   This is the folly of fiat.  If you want a trillion dollars of gold you have to have a trillion dollars of gold, not a piece of paper that says you do.  If you cared about having too much of what's used as money you'd be able to acknowledge the growth of the money supply and central banks across the world going gangbusters on their printing presses.  If you cared about the worthlessness of "certificates" in general you'd actually be skeptical of those "Federal Reserve Notes" that you're convinced is real money.  It's really worth about 95% less than it used to be, but it's not "volatile" so that's okay?  Sorry I'll take volatility over a veritable dive to zero any day.   If prices aren't going up and down, something is wrong.   If you're scared of volatility I don't know what's wrong with you.   Hang out in money markets and enjoy that 0.2% interest.  No volatility!  What a deal.

I am not scared of volatility, I am afraid that some people (who are getting out of gold now step by step if you follow the market news) have created a hype  to get at sucker's money. The long time medium value of gold is around $400 (in 2005 money) per ounce, everything that is above that is speculation, and speculation goes down the drain sooner or later. And as I have told you already in a post I made last year, Q2 of this one will see the end of the speculation bubble because the producers cannot hold back sales any longer and the major consumers have cut drastically on gold due to price so the price got to give (unless the goldhamsters can come up with a trillion to buy the market empty). I did not foresee the additional Cyprus dip, but for the rest it looks like I was on the money. More to come in the near future.

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#23    OverSword

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 02:51 PM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 01 May 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

I read in a history magazine once that an old man once asked his grandchild to drop some coins on the table and they landed with a dull clunk. Then he brought out his own coins and they sounded musical as they landed.

Now this AZ move is most likely based on Federal Reserve conpiracy theories. The type that a private corporation ran by international bankers is attempting to undermine the United States.

Keep in mind these conspiracy theories have an origin and can be traced to their source.

Long ago when the Catholic King and Queen took back Spain from the Moors they gave everyone (many Jews who lived in peace with the Muslims) a choice: convert, leave, or die.

Then they did not allow Jews (now called Conversos) to have certain jobs but the Spanish did not think highly of money handling since bartering and taxation were their forms of gaining wealth. Little did they know that money was going to have an impact and become quite the popular and influential thing. So that backfired on the racist Spanish of that era.

So this conspiracy theory of international bankers from outside the country having infilitrated it and are now attempting to destroy the country form within is an old one. It has anti-Semitic origins and that it is being bandied by those in Arizona who are not the most tolerant of other groups not their own is of no huge surprise.
Your post is actually the theory.  The logical and demonstrable reason is not because of anti-semetism.  It's because when the dollar collapses, which it will, the legislators of Arizona want to be ready with a more stable form of exchange.  You can't print more and more gold and silver until it's worthless (yet) so it's a safer currency, one which the criminally negligent US government of 1913 should never have abandoned.


#24    OverSword

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 02:55 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 01 May 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

Gold has not stored value for over 6000 years, gold had a highly volatile value through most of history depending on its availability. But the guy who sold you the "gold certificates" might have told you otherwise. In fact, whole economies went down the drain because there was suddenly too much gold (see Spain in the 17th century).
That's a very simplistic view of what happened in Spain.  And it sure didn't hurt Spains economy and you know it.  Talk about cherry picking.


#25    questionmark

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 03:04 PM

View PostOverSword, on 02 May 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

That's a very simplistic view of what happened in Spain.  And it sure didn't hurt Spains economy and you know it.  Talk about cherry picking.

Naturally it did hurt Spain's economy, the Spanish Doblon could not even be devalued anymore once the **** hit the fan because of old the gold and silver they carted in from South America (for which there was no real demand either). That Charles I (or V, from the German perspective as he was king of Spain and emperor of Germany) needed to make debts to finance his wars, which eventually led to the downfall of Spain a century later, despite sitting on a huge heap of gold and silver should tell you something.

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#26    Br Cornelius

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 03:37 PM

We all invest in fantasies, gold is just another one.
Fundamentally if it gets bad enough for gold to become a real currency again (which it really hasn't been for hundreds of years) then it wont matter much since 99.9% of the world neither has gold or any ability to buy and own real gold. Turkey's wishing for christmas is what the frenzy for the crash of the fiat currency and the rise of gold really is - we are all ****ed when that happens and that not's an economic theory - its a cold hard reality.

You can hock your precious metal around as much as you like since you won't have any food/water/electricity at your disposal to buy.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 02 May 2013 - 03:38 PM.

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#27    Yamato

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 06:22 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 02 May 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

I am not scared of volatility, I am afraid that some people (who are getting out of gold now step by step if you follow the market news) have created a hype  to get at sucker's money. The long time medium value of gold is around $400 (in 2005 money) per ounce, everything that is above that is speculation, and speculation goes down the drain sooner or later. And as I have told you already in a post I made last year, Q2 of this one will see the end of the speculation bubble because the producers cannot hold back sales any longer and the major consumers have cut drastically on gold due to price so the price got to give (unless the goldhamsters can come up with a trillion to buy the market empty). I did not foresee the additional Cyprus dip, but for the rest it looks like I was on the money. More to come in the near future.
Tech gets hyped, it's no safe haven.  Real estate gets hyped, it's no safe haven.   I agree that gold is no safe haven if that's the hype.  Gold got hit during the 2008 meltdown just like stocks.   You just don't seem to understand what gold is or the reason for owning it. It's not because the price goes in only one direction or because calling people names is fun.   Gold has real value because you can't print it, and it's instantly convertible to paper currency on the open market for spot price or above.   Ebay?  Check it out.

You must believe in inflation throughout history and have an endless bowel of tolerance for it today.   That's the shill game for the rich on the backs of the poor some of you will never understand.

View PostBr Cornelius, on 02 May 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

We all invest in fantasies, gold is just another one.
Fundamentally if it gets bad enough for gold to become a real currency again (which it really hasn't been for hundreds of years) then it wont matter much since 99.9% of the world neither has gold or any ability to buy and own real gold. Turkey's wishing for christmas is what the frenzy for the crash of the fiat currency and the rise of gold really is - we are all ****ed when that happens and that not's an economic theory - its a cold hard reality.

You can hock your precious metal around as much as you like since you won't have any food/water/electricity at your disposal to buy.

Br Cornelius
Who is everyone going to run to for food, electricity, and water when there suddenly isn't any?  Government.  And if government isn't providing those things, then there is no government and there is no fiat value anymore either by extension.   You can't be more wrong in what you just said because in that kind of scenario you better have something of value to barter with to keep yourself alive.   Don't want to put your faith in 6000 years of proven history?  Then I don't know, try storing that oil in your basement.  Whatever.  Just grab some guns and go take things from other people by force.  That's what a minority of people will surely go and do.  The police, those heroes in blue, will protect you so don't worry about owning any guns or anything.  Derp!

Edited by Yamato, 02 May 2013 - 06:25 PM.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#28    questionmark

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 06:29 PM

View PostYamato, on 02 May 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

Tech gets hyped, it's no safe haven.  Real estate gets hyped, it's no safe haven.   I agree that gold is no safe haven if that's the hype.  Gold got hit during the 2008 meltdown just like stocks.   You just don't seem to understand what gold is or the reason for owning it. It's not because the price goes in only one direction or because calling people names is fun.   Gold has real value because you can't print it, and it's instantly convertible to paper currency on the open market for spot price or above.   Ebay?  Check it out.

You must believe in inflation throughout history and have an endless bowel of tolerance for it today.   That's the shill game for the rich on the backs of the poor some of you will never understand.


Who is everyone going to run to for food, electricity, and water when there suddenly isn't any?  Government.  And if government isn't providing those things, then there is no government and there is no fiat value anymore either by extension.   You can't be more wrong in what you just said because in that kind of scenario you better have something of value to barter with to keep yourself alive.   Don't want to put your faith in 6000 years of proven history?  Then I don't know, try storing that oil in your basement.  Whatever.  Just grab some guns and go take things from other people by force.  That's what a minority of people will surely go and do.  The police, those heroes in blue, will protect you so don't worry about owning any guns or anything.  Derp!

They can't print it, you are right, but they are mining 1.4 trillion worth every year. Derp!

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#29    Gromdor

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 06:46 PM

One problem with items that are valued on rarity is the possibility of a sudden glut in the material in question.  Just think of what would happen to gold prices if we brought an asteroid to earth and it turned out to be solid gold or if we developed a method to extract a million tons of it a year from seawater.  If we were to base our currency on something, personally I would use something that has use.  Energy or food perhaps.


#30    questionmark

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 06:55 PM

View PostGromdor, on 02 May 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

One problem with items that are valued on rarity is the possibility of a sudden glut in the material in question.  Just think of what would happen to gold prices if we brought an asteroid to earth and it turned out to be solid gold or if we developed a method to extract a million tons of it a year from seawater.  If we were to base our currency on something, personally I would use something that has use.  Energy or food perhaps.

Productivity VS Consumption (or the generation of real wealth) of the issuing country would be the only fair appreciation. If you are to base it on metals you must have enough metal available that every person has enough to make his purchases. There both gold and silver fall way short with 7 billion people. In fact, if even one of the more populous countries would do that, and somehow managed to get all the gold and silver there they would be short.

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