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5yr old kills Sister with Gift


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#106    J. K.

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:05 PM

View Postaztek, on 03 May 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

yes it was, but it was not the only word, read it again.

pointless the way YOU propose.

you can stand by anything you want, but what you ask, and assume you can acheve the way you propose is a tonn of hot air, nothing more

I am certainly aware that it is impossible to impart responsibility to 100% of all people.  However, the reason that I want to see responsibility is to lessen the suffering that irresponsibility causes.  I stand by my opinion motivated by compassion.  A partially achieved goal is better than no goal at all.

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#107    green_dude777

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:21 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 03 May 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

That child and those children should never have been put in such a situation in the first place .... it was the fault of the adults that the child should have been 'expected' and applauded to kill at such an age regardless of the situation, the adults owe this child a world of apologies for not making his world a safer place as was intended and promised.


~edit - double post bypass

Did you read the article?  The mother obviously didn't take action, they both might not be alive if the kid didn't.

View Postfreetoroam, on 03 May 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

Really?


Yes, this again, because this is what this thread is about...kids and guns.
Can you explain the mindset of a 5 year old child and their responsibility of having a gun in their hands, seeing that its not tied to age?
So basically all the responsible adult bit about their guns are locked away is not true as it seems some on here are in favour of guns being accessible to kids when the parent is not at at home.
I will say it again and repeat what third_eye has said: no parent should be leaving their child alone where a guns needs to be left for them to use if there is a possibility of any danger....PARENTS SHOULD BE PROTECTING THEIR CHILDREN, NOT A GUN LEFT FOR THE KID TO USE.

Here freetoroam, this was before your post:

View Postgreen_dude777, on 03 May 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

Thanato: I have not defended, or suggested that the 5 year old should have had the gun.  This was gross negligence on the parents part, and I feel for the 2 year old, and family.

With that said, some of the posters here make statements that are either 1) False or 2) Speculation.  I'm simply correcting those posters.



#108    third_eye

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:25 PM

View Postgreen_dude777, on 03 May 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

Did you read the article?  The mother obviously didn't take action, they both might not be alive if the kid didn't.

~snip


For every one of those many can post links to more that ended much more tragically that that ... its not a numbers game to me, might not be alive is the point here isn't it ?

How do you know they lived because the kid pulled the trigger and not the 'criminal' here unable to pull the trigger on a kid ?

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#109    green_dude777

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:34 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 03 May 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

For every one of those many can post links to more that ended much more tragically that that ... its not a numbers game to me, might not be alive is the point here isn't it ?

How do you know they lived because the kid pulled the trigger and not the 'criminal' here unable to pull the trigger on a kid ?

Well, that's why you bolded the word 'might', now isn't it?  I don't know what would have happened, I don't believe people are psychic so I don't think anyone would know.  I do know to this day that child and mother are alive, and we know the mother didn't go into defense mode.

You're right, it's not a numbers game... Those numbers were only presented for the statements along the lines of "No one under 14 should possess a firearm without a parent standing directly behind them" or "You're supposed to protect your kids, if leaving your kids were to put them in danger, I wouldn't do it".  I simply presented scenarios where it fell within these posters' parameters of what was acceptable or not.  If these kids were held to the previous posters demands, they might be dead. I'm glad they didn't have these posters' restrictions and they are alive today, likely because they had access to a firearm.  I find the deaths of children always unacceptable, whether accidental or intentional.


#110    third_eye

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:42 PM

View Postgreen_dude777, on 03 May 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:


~snip

I find the deaths of children always unacceptable, whether accidental or intentional.


And so too do I and among others here ... only we hold it at a higher priority than the politics of 'ownership'

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#111    green_dude777

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:48 PM

I'm finding the biggest difference between myself and some of our posters across the pond... I don't speak on things I'm not familiar with, whereas we have a bunch of gun safety experts in places that don't allow them to have guns.

You won't find me pretending to be an expert, or suggest how you enjoy truffles, soccer, fish and chips, the royal family, tea, fawlty towers (I don't find this show funny at all).  I wish I could list more, but I generally don't care what other citizens of other countries are doing in their day to day.  I hear they censor a lot of media in Australia, but guess what...don't care.  You don't have guns in 'x' place, I don't care, unless it's Murica.

Since I'm American, I believe in freedom of speech, even if what is being said is not so intelligent.  Just keep in mind, people familiar with guns being told how to handle them by people who haven't, is the equivalent of a garbage man telling a cardiologist how to properly take care of said cardiologists' heart.


#112    questionmark

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:55 PM

View Postgreen_dude777, on 03 May 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

I'm finding the biggest difference between myself and some of our posters across the pond... I don't speak on things I'm not familiar with, whereas we have a bunch of gun safety experts in places that don't allow them to have guns.

You won't find me pretending to be an expert, or suggest how you enjoy truffles, soccer, fish and chips, the royal family, tea, fawlty towers (I don't find this show funny at all).  I wish I could list more, but I generally don't care what other citizens of other countries are doing in their day to day.  I hear they censor a lot of media in Australia, but guess what...don't care.  You don't have guns in 'x' place, I don't care, unless it's Murica.

Since I'm American, I believe in freedom of speech, even if what is being said is not so intelligent.  Just keep in mind, people familiar with guns being told how to handle them by people who haven't, is the equivalent of a garbage man telling a cardiologist how to properly take care of said cardiologists' heart.

You are sure trying hard at suppressing our British cousin's opinions for being pro-free speech.

Edited by questionmark, 03 May 2013 - 05:00 PM.

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#113    Sweetpumper

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:56 PM

View Postgreen_dude777, on 03 May 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

or suggest how you enjoy soccer

That's more baffling than the UFO enigma.

"At it's most basic level, science is supposed to represent the investigation of the unexplained, not the explanation of the uninvestigated." - Hunt for the Skinwalker

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#114    green_dude777

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:02 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 03 May 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

You are sure trying hard at suppressing out British cousin's opinions for being pro-free speech.

Is that how you interpreted that?  I thought I was giving a reminder on choosing your words, or battles, more carefully.  Maybe you're confusing me with some other posters who in other threads have told people to butt out?  That certainly wasn't me.  I actually welcome and have defended outside opinions, ask Stellar, or if you look at my post history, you'll see it.

I happen to enjoy refuting all of these points, please keep them coming and directed at me.  It's especially easy when it's an opinion or speculation, and when that opinion or speculation originates from someone who hasn't handled firearms.


#115    third_eye

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:09 PM

well the little girl shot to death here (OP) evidently didn't lived long enough to have formed an idea about guns ...  I wonder if she deserves to have an opinion about guns

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Edited by third_eye, 03 May 2013 - 05:16 PM.

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#116    freetoroam

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:11 PM

View Postgreen_dude777, on 03 May 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

Here freetoroam, this was before your post:

I read that post.
I was referring to " Responsibility isn't tied to an age, it's tied to a mindset. When I was 12, I would have been fully capable to defend the home in the absence of my parents." and the point is that you do not see a problem with a parent going out and leaving their child alone with guns which are not locked away.
I ask you again, and what is the general mindset of a child left alone with guns left to their use in case of an intruder? What is your opinion of the mindset of a parent who leaves their child in this situation?


#117    questionmark

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:14 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 03 May 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

I read that post.
I was referring to " Responsibility isn't tied to an age, it's tied to a mindset. When I was 12, I would have been fully capable to defend the home in the absence of my parents." and the point is that you do not see a problem with a parent going out and leaving their child alone with guns which are not locked away.
I ask you again, and what is the general mindset of a child left alone with guns left to their use in case of an intruder? What is your opinion of the mindset of a parent who leaves their child in this situation?

BTW, just as clarification, leaving a kid alone at home with a loaded gun is against the law in many states, in Iowa it even is a felony (which gets you the standard gun related Iowa sentence: five years without probation).

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#118    green_dude777

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:47 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 03 May 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

I read that post.
I was referring to " Responsibility isn't tied to an age, it's tied to a mindset. When I was 12, I would have been fully capable to defend the home in the absence of my parents." and the point is that you do not see a problem with a parent going out and leaving their child alone with guns which are not locked away.
I ask you again, and what is the general mindset of a child left alone with guns left to their use in case of an intruder? What is your opinion of the mindset of a parent who leaves their child in this situation?

That is why I presented you the case of when the parent was home, the child defended himself and her.  She was there, and did nothing.

I babysat all of my siblings when I was 12 at different times, and if there was a break in, I would have called the police and defended the home instead of calling the police and hoping.  What do I think of my father's mindset?  Well, he raised 5 responsible children, taught us all how to responsibly handle firearms, so I say he did pretty good.  I also never said they weren't locked away, as we wouldn't want the younger siblings to have access to them.  The point was, I had access to them, and I obviously have been responsible with them, or I wouldn't be here talking to you today if I weren't.  My father also wouldn't have allowed me access if I weren't deemed responsible enough.

To be honest, you would find many rural towns spread all throughout America as 'irresponsible'.  What I find irresponsible is not teaching someone how to use something before giving them access.  I guess here's something maybe many of you across the pond don't know;  we have gun safety courses for all ages.  I took mine when I was 7 years old, so I could legally hunt with my own shotgun when I was that age.  The state said I was responsible enough to hunt deer with a shotgun at that age, but of course you all know better.

View Postquestionmark, on 03 May 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

BTW, just as clarification, leaving a kid alone at home with a loaded gun is against the law in many states, in Iowa it even is a felony (which gets you the standard gun related Iowa sentence: five years without probation).

Luckily for my 'terrible and irresponsible' family, we lived in Ohio.  Also, never said we kept our guns loaded.

I think you'll find everyone agrees that these parents in Kentucky weren't responsible gun owners.  I also don't think you'll find one person who claims a 5 year old should have unrestricted use of a firearm.

It's also probably been overlooked in a lot of your fervor, but I'm in support of licensing, just not registering.


#119    green_dude777

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:55 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 03 May 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

well the little girl shot to death here (OP) evidently didn't lived long enough to have formed an idea about guns ...  I wonder if she deserves to have an opinion about guns

I hunt once in awhile but I rather hunt with friends like this :
Posted Image

You seem to continually suggest that I don't care about the loss of a 2 year old.  What makes you think that?

View Postgreen_dude777, on 03 May 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

Well, that's why you bolded the word 'might', now isn't it?  I don't know what would have happened, I don't believe people are psychic so I don't think anyone would know.  I do know to this day that child and mother are alive, and we know the mother didn't go into defense mode.

You're right, it's not a numbers game... Those numbers were only presented for the statements along the lines of "No one under 14 should possess a firearm without a parent standing directly behind them" or "You're supposed to protect your kids, if leaving your kids were to put them in danger, I wouldn't do it".  I simply presented scenarios where it fell within these posters' parameters of what was acceptable or not.  If these kids were held to the previous posters demands, they might be dead. I'm glad they didn't have these posters' restrictions and they are alive today, likely because they had access to a firearm. I find the deaths of children always unacceptable, whether accidental or intentional.

Again, I don't blame inanimate objects for people's poor conduct.  I think whoever was in charge of this young person should suffer the consequences of neglect, but I've already stated this.

Just like when a kid swallows chemicals in the house and dies, I think the person in charge should suffer the consequence, not go out and ban bleach or start a bleach registry.


#120    freetoroam

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 06:04 PM

View Postgreen_dude777, on 03 May 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

That is why I presented you the case of when the parent was home, the child defended himself and her.  She was there, and did nothing.

I babysat all of my siblings when I was 12 at different times, and if there was a break in, I would have called the police and defended the home instead of calling the police and hoping.  What do I think of my father's mindset?  Well, he raised 5 responsible children, taught us all how to responsibly handle firearms, so I say he did pretty good.  I also never said they weren't locked away, as we wouldn't want the younger siblings to have access to them.  The point was, I had access to them, and I obviously have been responsible with them, or I wouldn't be here talking to you today if I weren't.  My father also wouldn't have allowed me access if I weren't deemed responsible enough.

To be honest, you would find many rural towns spread all throughout America as 'irresponsible'.  What I find irresponsible is not teaching someone how to use something before giving them access.  I guess here's something maybe many of you across the pond don't know;  we have gun safety courses for all ages.  I took mine when I was 7 years old, so I could legally hunt with my own shotgun when I was that age.  The state said I was responsible enough to hunt deer with a shotgun at that age, but of course you all know better.



As I said before, there is a difference between a parent teaching their child how to use a gun because they are going hunting and a parent teaching their child to use a gun as a means of protection.  I can actually see your situation as a family living in a rural area, but it does not change my view that a child should be left alone, if all the families in America had the same unbringing as yourself, we would have nothing to discuss and the US would be a much safer place, but it is not happening like that.
I believe a lot of parents do teach their children how to use a gun, but we all know that a child can see things different from adults, and what seems as a responsible move by us, can be seen as a bit of excitement and adventure for the child, you are not going to take that off a child, its the way they are...we have all been there. ...but some of us were not there with guns.
I do not and will never get my head round a parent leaving a child alone with the "responsibility" of looking after the household with a loaded weapon...just in case!

Edited by freetoroam, 03 May 2013 - 06:05 PM.





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