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Palestine not for Sale or Trade


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#31    Mr Walker

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:37 AM

View PostYamato, on 05 May 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Judaism exists outside of Israel, a fact you have to keep telling Zionists repeatedly.  I don't know why you're telling me.  I'm the one who's carried that message as long as anyone here.  Protracted talk about "the Arabs" or "the Jews" notwithstanding.

If there wasn't an endless bath of foreign interventionism in the Middle East for the past thousand years the geopolitics would be far freaking different today.

Maybe i misunderstood your post. I  was also astounded and dismayed by the anti semiticism of some posters based either on religious grounds or on a complete revisioist rewriting of the actual history of the "arab-israeli conflict." I hadnt realised you had an "historic" or estabished position on this, either. A lot of the other stuff i added into the post was for general readership rather than specifically in repsonse to your post

Ps, as to your last sentence This is true  for every part of the world,  and especially since neo colonial times.

Edited by Mr Walker, 05 May 2013 - 06:59 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#32    Mr Walker

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:51 AM

View PostYamato, on 05 May 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

Personally I find the exercise of micro-analyzing the Arabs or the Jews or the Muslims or the et al to be the wrong approach because it's missing the point.  Palestinians deserve freedom.  Period.  No dance through the meaningless details is going to change the basic truths.   Palestinians deserve freedom, and that means they deserve to fight for their freedom.   Just like me, just like you.  

Delving into the differences between different groups of people is an invitation for conflict.   There is nobody more in need of this invitation than a Zionist.

Palestinians are God's children too.  Nobody who uses this forum has a soul that's worth one drip more than a Palestinian child's.  And there are 800,000 of them locked in a sarcophagus of economic stagnation and massive denials of human rights and civil liberties called "the Gaza Strip".  

It shouldn't be any wonder why some of us get the jailbreak mentality.  I want to see those beautiful suffering kids break out of there, and who wouldn't?   Someone who can put geopolitics ahead of humanity.
The only possible solution now, after years of war, hostility, mistrust and broken promises, is a two state solution. This will have to guarantee israels safety and right to existence because otherwise israel will not accepet such a solution. (and in my opinion logically and rightly so)

Sadly, the arabs will get less than they would have with a peaceful siolution in 1947/48. The most recent scenario/plan gives slightly more than 50% of the territory to Israel and slightly less than 50% to the palestinians. Personally I would have liked to see a single unified and peaceful state, but given the hostilities of nearly a century now, that is not going to happen.

The  exercising of  the palestinian "right' to fight for freedom has consistently left them worse off than before. And they would have been even worse off again if Isreal had not returned a lot of territory won in defending itslef (along with self governance for some parts of the palestinian territories, in excahnge for promises of peace which were either not kept or only partly adhered to The palestinians (and indeed the combined arab world ) has no chance of improving the palestinian plight by conflict, only of making it worse) If iran comes close to building a nuclear weapon Israel will do as it has before, and destroy any associated facilities

. It saddens me that so few accept this, and so many see perpetual conflict as aiding their own agendas for power and control of their; clans, groups, religious parties, etc.There are many solutions to the "palestinian problem" Conflict is not one of them.

PS if a zionist is one who advocates and supports the existence of a jewish state in the general area now occupied by Israel, then, while I am not a jew, dont know any jeas and have no affiliation with anything jewish, i am a proud, unabashed and total supporter of such a state, in principle and in reality, and thus a zionist.

I see NO slur or negative connotation in the word. It recognises the right of the jewish people to a jewish state in their traditional/historic lands. It does NOT preclude the establishment of a similar palestinian state neighbouring it, based on the same historical rights.

Edited by Mr Walker, 05 May 2013 - 06:57 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#33    Black Red Devil

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 07:44 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 05 May 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

Israell recognises the right for a palestinian state, and in a way always has, from the time of partition. It is not prepared to give up its own right to existence to allow this, however The problem lies with other arabs who do not want an Israeli state at all.  A palestinian state and an israeli state should be able to coexist peacefully.

And no. Israel developed its own nuclear weapons programme  and its own weapons. The Us opposed israeli  nuclear weapons develpment and ironically some of the technology was stolen via espionage form the USA.
It has never used them in 40 years of provocation and has never used the threat of them to gain its own ends, in fact it has stated many times in the last half century that it will never be the first country to introduce the use of weapons into the middle east. However, it has made it clear that any NUCLEAR attack on israel would result in annihilation for the attackers.

Israel DOES NOT recognise a Palestinian State.  Most Arab countries would recognise Israel if they started being serious about a Palestinian State.  The fact the Arab League has suggested talks should resume and both countries settle on the 1967 borders shows this.  The problem is Israel is not willing to give the Palestinians anything which is evident in the constant oppression in Gaza, restrictions and the ongoing building of settlements in the West Bank.  Netanyahu has already made it clear East Jerusalem is not for sale.

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#34    Black Red Devil

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:07 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 05 May 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

LOL its ironic really Heres me with a degree in international politics having grown upliving throughthe later part of this conflict and having a life time of reading on the topic being asked to do research
Are you awre tha the islamist leaders of iran have publicaaly declared tha their rationale for building nuclear weapons is to use them to destroy the state of israel The worrying thing is that two or three medium sized nuclear weapons could indeed destroy the state, and all the people of israel.

Of course there would be collateral damge to a few milion local arabs and arab states but to the leaders of iran that would probably make them martyrs in ths cause and accepetable collateral damge In response to this threat and indeed much older threats by arab states to 'elimiate' Israel and "exterminate ' the jews, Israel has developed a tactical force capable of destroying any attacker(s)

Given the relative geographic size dispersion and numbers of potential agressors, that force is significant in size, but that is irrelevant if it is never used. I lived through the cold war, the cuban missile crisis etc and, sadly, the nuclear deterrence is a very effective tool.

Would israel destroy iranian capacity to create nuclear weapons, before they actually have them? I would hope so. I wish the americans had done this before North Korea developed its own nuclear weapons. It would limit the potential death and destruction by a huge amount. Imagine a nuclear attack on  south korea and  the consequences of any response.  Two nations probably annihilated and many many millions killed. Far better to have destroyed North Korea's abilty to produce such weapons before they had them.
Ps there is also the very real, if hard to assess, probabilty of arabs getting hold of smaller tactical nuclear weapons from other states, particularly muslim parts of the old soviet union, through clandestine means or even with the consent of those states. Many arab states have the wealth and the theological determination to do this, if they could.

Seems like anyone can get a degree these days because your knowledge is quite limited.

"Are you awre tha the islamist leaders of iran have publicaaly declared tha their rationale for building nuclear weapons is to use them to destroy the state of israel"  Really?!!  Are you aware of Khameini's fatwa against nuclear weapons?  The rest of your post is just dribble.  Do you really think the US has a Right to attack other nations whenever it deems necessary?  :lol: Your world view is that Israel can have nukes and threaten other nations because they're friends, but WE  (as in the US, the West and puppets such as the Australian Govt) MUST enforce international law on all the others, specially our enemies.  If the world ever wanted to restrict lunatic Govt's such as NK from building nukes, they should have made an example by restricting Israel, Pakistan and India first.

We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell

- Oscar Wilde

#35    GoSC

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:19 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 05 May 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

Cut for some brevity of post only
ANyone can quote a lot of information. But the tone of it and of your own words betrays its bias.This is NOT the way things happened in reality, and presents a very simple, conspiratorial, and one sided picture of a very tragic time.

It makes it easier to believe and digest, being so simple and one sided, but that doesnt make it the truth. The other side of the story is tha the israelis were planning and responding to the avvered commitment, guerilla warfare, and eventually invasion by people who wanted to destroy them as a people and a nation. They sucesfuly defended them selves Most of the refugee problem would not exist if the arab peole and nations had allowed the league of nations and united nations rulings to stand as they were. Israel tpday would probably be a small probably insignificant, multi religious/cultural state.

Israel and the arabs, ironically, have the arabs continued unsuccessful warfare against it, to thank for its modern size, power geopolitical importance and prosperity.

No, it is because Israel has been championed by the western nations and Israel wrote its own biased histories.

The Arabs faced multiple betrayals by the British, League of Nations, and the UN... Sykes-Picot agreement, Balfour Declaration, the Palestine Mandate, the UN Partition Plan, etc.

The Arabs did not agree to any of them. They didn't want the Palestine Mandate, they did not want the Balfour Declaration, they did not want the UN Partition Plan.

The Arabs rejected the Mandate system outright but had instead demanded an independent state with a democratic, parliamentary form of government, an idea rejected at the San Remo Peace Conference of 1920.

And another big reason the Arabs refused to accept the mandate system IS because Britain insisted the Balfour Declaration be introduced into the text of the mandate. In other words, Arab acceptance of the Mandate meant Arab acceptance of the Balfour Declaration.

The Jews rejected the concept of a democratic self-government in Palestine because in 1920 90% of its population were Non-Jews. A democratic government would be acceptable to the Jews only after a massive Jewish immigration or with the removal of the Muslim and Christian population.

Because the definition of a Jewish national home meant a state existing for Jews. Ironically, such a state was in direct violation of Article 2 of the Mandate requirements to "safeguard the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion."

Article 2.

The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.


https://www.mtholyok...rel/britman.htm

A Jewish state, a government advancing Jewish interests, would deny equal treatment, opportunity, and rights to Muslims and Christians. How's that for democracy? Jewish state and democracy is a oxymoron. A direct contradiction.

Additionally between the Mandate (1920) and Partition Plan (1947), was marked by a rational distrust of the West and a bitter struggle by Arab nationalists against Jewish immigration and land purchases that precluded cooperation and fermented the violence.

Here is one of the biggest reasons the Arabs rejected the Partition Plan proposal created November 29, 1947. The League of Nations did not propose the Partition Plan as it ceased to exist by 1946.

Here are the demographics of Palestine at the time of  the Partition Plan proposal moments at its announcement:  

608,000 (33%) Jews

1,237,000 (67%) Non-Jews

The Zionists owned 6% of Palestine.

The Partition Plan gave 56.47% of Palestine to the Zionists for a future Jewish state.

The Partition Plan gave 43.53% of Palestine to the Non-Jews for a future Arab state.

The proposal was unacceptable because a true democratic self-government would have only been possible and acceptable if the Jewish national home meant a Jewish community within Palestine. NOT a Jewish state which by all definition I reiterate, is NOT a democracy.

EDIT: corrected some dates.

Edited by B Jenkins, 05 May 2013 - 08:53 AM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#36    GoSC

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:40 AM

View Postand then, on 04 May 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

I like this - it's accurate and I agree with the policy that makes it so.  Israel is the HOME OF THE JEWS.  If she doesn't want to live there then she isn't forced to. :)

Hail the Jewish state, or is it Heil the Jewish state.

All it requires is for you to be a Jew or have a Jewish mother. Heck, Israel even denied Barbara Streisand's Jewish American cousin citizenship because he was a ... Christian.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#37    Black Red Devil

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:40 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 05 May 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:

I will only comment on the last part of your post. It is just wrong and ridiculously wrong. Diseases such as the black death and spanish flu,  along with measles, mumps, chicken pox, diptheria, malaria,  cholera etc have killed many times more humans than ALL the wars in human history, let alone religious based wars. About 7-8 out of  every 10 children born up until a few centuries ago died from natural causes and about half of all women died in child birth or from complications arising from childbirth. Right now, in our modern world, about 1,000000 humans die from malaria EVERY year.

Oh thanks mate, I feel a lot better now.  With millions of deaths at the hands of Christians responsible for murdering pagans unwilling to convert to Christianity, Crusades, Inquisition, Spanish Conquistadores slaughtering South American Indians and all the medieval wars fought under the blessing of the Catholic Popes I'm pleased to know that our religious faith in a God pays in the end because otherwise the black death or malaria would await us.

We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell

- Oscar Wilde

#38    Black Red Devil

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:55 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 05 May 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

Maybe i misunderstood your post. I  was also astounded and dismayed by the anti semiticism of some posters based either on religious grounds or on a complete revisioist rewriting of the actual history of the "arab-israeli conflict." I hadnt realised you had an "historic" or estabished position on this, either. A lot of the other stuff i added into the post was for general readership rather than specifically in repsonse to your post

Ps, as to your last sentence This is true  for every part of the world,  and especially since neo colonial times.

Here we go again.  Another one comes along pointing the finger at anyone who's against Israeli persecution, occupation and oppression as being an antisemitic. It get's boring...  :sleepy:.  This one even proclaims we're biased and rewriting history.   Unbelievable.

Edited by Black Red Devil, 05 May 2013 - 10:56 AM.

We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell

- Oscar Wilde

#39    Black Red Devil

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:03 AM

View PostB Jenkins, on 05 May 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

No, it is because Israel has been championed by the western nations and Israel wrote its own biased histories.

The Arabs faced multiple betrayals by the British, League of Nations, and the UN... Sykes-Picot agreement, Balfour Declaration, the Palestine Mandate, the UN Partition Plan, etc.

The Arabs did not agree to any of them. They didn't want the Palestine Mandate, they did not want the Balfour Declaration, they did not want the UN Partition Plan.

The Arabs rejected the Mandate system outright but had instead demanded an independent state with a democratic, parliamentary form of government, an idea rejected at the San Remo Peace Conference of 1920.

And another big reason the Arabs refused to accept the mandate system IS because Britain insisted the Balfour Declaration be introduced into the text of the mandate. In other words, Arab acceptance of the Mandate meant Arab acceptance of the Balfour Declaration.

The Jews rejected the concept of a democratic self-government in Palestine because in 1920 90% of its population were Non-Jews. A democratic government would be acceptable to the Jews only after a massive Jewish immigration or with the removal of the Muslim and Christian population.

Because the definition of a Jewish national home meant a state existing for Jews. Ironically, such a state was in direct violation of Article 2 of the Mandate requirements to "safeguard the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion."

Article 2.

The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.


https://www.mtholyok...rel/britman.htm

A Jewish state, a government advancing Jewish interests, would deny equal treatment, opportunity, and rights to Muslims and Christians. How's that for democracy? Jewish state and democracy is a oxymoron. A direct contradiction.

Additionally between the Mandate (1920) and Partition Plan (1947), was marked by a rational distrust of the West and a bitter struggle by Arab nationalists against Jewish immigration and land purchases that precluded cooperation and fermented the violence.

Here is one of the biggest reasons the Arabs rejected the Partition Plan proposal created November 29, 1947. The League of Nations did not propose the Partition Plan as it ceased to exist by 1946.

Here are the demographics of Palestine at the time of  the Partition Plan proposal moments at its announcement:  

608,000 (33%) Jews

1,237,000 (67%) Non-Jews

The Zionists owned 6% of Palestine.

The Partition Plan gave 56.47% of Palestine to the Zionists for a future Jewish state.

The Partition Plan gave 43.53% of Palestine to the Non-Jews for a future Arab state.

The proposal was unacceptable because a true democratic self-government would have only been possible and acceptable if the Jewish national home meant a Jewish community within Palestine. NOT a Jewish state which by all definition I reiterate, is NOT a democracy.

EDIT: corrected some dates.


Best post in all this thread.

We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell

- Oscar Wilde

#40    Yamato

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:10 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 05 May 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

The only possible solution now, after years of war, hostility, mistrust and broken promises, is a two state solution. This will have to guarantee israels safety and right to existence because otherwise israel will not accepet such a solution. (and in my opinion logically and rightly so)

Sadly, the arabs will get less than they would have with a peaceful siolution in 1947/48. The most recent scenario/plan gives slightly more than 50% of the territory to Israel and slightly less than 50% to the palestinians. Personally I would have liked to see a single unified and peaceful state, but given the hostilities of nearly a century now, that is not going to happen.

The  exercising of  the palestinian "right' to fight for freedom has consistently left them worse off than before. And they would have been even worse off again if Isreal had not returned a lot of territory won in defending itslef (along with self governance for some parts of the palestinian territories, in excahnge for promises of peace which were either not kept or only partly adhered to The palestinians (and indeed the combined arab world ) has no chance of improving the palestinian plight by conflict, only of making it worse) If iran comes close to building a nuclear weapon Israel will do as it has before, and destroy any associated facilities

. It saddens me that so few accept this, and so many see perpetual conflict as aiding their own agendas for power and control of their; clans, groups, religious parties, etc.There are many solutions to the "palestinian problem" Conflict is not one of them.

PS if a zionist is one who advocates and supports the existence of a jewish state in the general area now occupied by Israel, then, while I am not a jew, dont know any jeas and have no affiliation with anything jewish, i am a proud, unabashed and total supporter of such a state, in principle and in reality, and thus a zionist.

I see NO slur or negative connotation in the word. It recognises the right of the jewish people to a jewish state in their traditional/historic lands. It does NOT preclude the establishment of a similar palestinian state neighbouring it, based on the same historical rights.
If everyone had an "historical right" to his "historical lands" there'd be so much nonsense ala Israel today going on in the world it would drown in blood.

So Jewish homeland yes, Wiccan homeland no.   If every group needed their own physical homeland the world would have 100,000 countries.  We have enough borders and meaningless barbaric squabbles over land and boundaries enough as it is.  That'd be another invitation for conflict and no, I don't make a singular exception to Israel and explain it away with paragraphs or chapters of semi-relevant factoids missing the point.

Any country trying to preserve a single race or ethnicity within its arbitrary lines drawn by government is racist and worthy of scorn.   Treating Israel like an exceptional case exposes hypocrisy.   Find standards good enough for everyone and defend those.   Israel's standards are a recipe for mass death anywhere they occur.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#41    Mr Walker

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:10 AM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 05 May 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

Seems like anyone can get a degree these days because your knowledge is quite limited.

"Are you awre tha the islamist leaders of iran have publicaaly declared tha their rationale for building nuclear weapons is to use them to destroy the state of israel"  Really?!!  Are you aware of Khameini's fatwa against nuclear weapons?  The rest of your post is just dribble.  Do you really think the US has a Right to attack other nations whenever it deems necessary?  :lol: Your world view is that Israel can have nukes and threaten other nations because they're friends, but WE  (as in the US, the West and puppets such as the Australian Govt) MUST enforce international law on all the others, specially our enemies.  If the world ever wanted to restrict lunatic Govt's such as NK from building nukes, they should have made an example by restricting Israel, Pakistan and India first.
Maybe anyone CAN get a degree these days, but i got mine when it actually took some rigour :innocent:  No, i haven't read his fatwah on nuclear weapons but he probably instituted it because israel has them and he does not.

I do know that his own and his govt's declared policy is the destruction of israel  As was sadam hussein's (who did outline how he would use nuclear weapons to destroy israel once he had won his war with iran) and i do know (like most observers) that iran is attempting to build  its own nuclear weapons.  They have justified this themsleves in policy speeches.

Put those two pieces of information together and you have only one logical  conclusion. I think every nation has a right to defend itself by whatever means necessary as does an individual human being This is differnt from attacking another individual or state. Nuclear weapons are a danger to all, but  much more dangerous in the hands of individuals and nations who are not democratic and who are driven by religious hatreds and national fervour.  Isral has never threatened another nation with nuclear weapons because it has never admitted to having them, and you can't do one without the other.

Ps while australia is a signatory to the nuclear non proliferation treaty, i personally think we should have our own nuclear weapons. We could have developed them over 50 years ago, having the technology, economy, and uranium to build them oursleves and the satellite/rocket technology to deliver them.

Not having them prevents us, as a small nation, from having a truly independent foreign policy and makes us rely on alliances such as that with  America. I actually wrote a papaer on this while doing politics in the 70s  but it has never been a popular view in Australia. We dont even feel comfortable with nuclear energy, in part because we have access to so much oil, gas, coal and renewable energy..

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#42    Yamato

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:16 AM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 05 May 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Israel DOES NOT recognise a Palestinian State.  Most Arab countries would recognise Israel if they started being serious about a Palestinian State.  The fact the Arab League has suggested talks should resume and both countries settle on the 1967 borders shows this.  The problem is Israel is not willing to give the Palestinians anything which is evident in the constant oppression in Gaza, restrictions and the ongoing building of settlements in the West Bank.  Netanyahu has already made it clear East Jerusalem is not for sale.
Correct, Israel does NOT recognize a Palestinian State.   Correcting people who come here spewing the propaganda they heard over 100 times and now believe is a full-time job at times.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#43    Mr Walker

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:19 AM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 05 May 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Here we go again.  Another one comes along pointing the finger at anyone who's against Israeli persecution, occupation and oppression as being an antisemitic. It get's boring...  :sleepy:.  This one even proclaims we're biased and rewriting history.   Unbelievable.
I dont know if you are anti semitic. Only you can know that. I do know you are being biased and untruthful about the actual history of this conflict. My point was that many pro palestinians are anti semitic, a cary over from historical christian prejudices. Others create a connection between religion and politics which does not exist. Bible prophecy has NOTHING to do with contemporary politics or history The history you have been outlining in your posts is at worst simply a lie and at best a very one sided account which puts only one point of view As stated before I both studied these events As a part of an academic history and politics degree AND lived throughthe wars of the fities and sixties as a reader and follower of what ACTUALLY happened then. There has been a lot of modern and incorrect or biased  revision of that history which is part of the attempt by palestinians and their sympathisers to win a propaganda war after failing miserably to gain their ends through terrorism and warfare.

Are you old enough to remember the olympic massacre, the hijacking of many aeroplanes and ships, and the deaths by terrorism, brought about by arabs including palestinians and their supporters?

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#44    Black Red Devil

Black Red Devil

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:11 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 05 May 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

Maybe anyone CAN get a degree these days, but i got mine when it actually took some rigour :innocent:  No, i haven't read his fatwah on nuclear weapons but he probably instituted it because israel has them and he does not.

Rubbish, biased and uninformed nonsense.

View PostMr Walker, on 05 May 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

I do know that his own and his govt's declared policy is the destruction of israel  As was sadam hussein's (who did outline how he would use nuclear weapons to destroy israel once he had won his war with iran) and i do know (like most observers) that iran is attempting to build  its own nuclear weapons.  They have justified this themsleves in policy speeches.

Please provide a link to one of these speeches.

View PostMr Walker, on 05 May 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

Put those two pieces of information together and you have only one logical  conclusion. I think every nation has a right to defend itself by whatever means necessary as does an individual human being This is differnt from attacking another individual or state. Nuclear weapons are a danger to all, but  much more dangerous in the hands of individuals and nations who are not democratic and who are driven by religious hatreds and national fervour.  Isral has never threatened another nation with nuclear weapons because it has never admitted to having them, and you can't do one without the other.
So what is it??  Now we're saying Israel hasn't got nukes.  In previous posts you were saying they would use them if they got attacked??  LOL

We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell

- Oscar Wilde

#45    Black Red Devil

Black Red Devil

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:22 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 05 May 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

I dont know if you are anti semitic. Only you can know that. I do know you are being biased and untruthful about the actual history of this conflict. My point was that many pro palestinians are anti semitic, a cary over from historical christian prejudices. Others create a connection between religion and politics which does not exist. Bible prophecy has NOTHING to do with contemporary politics or history The history you have been outlining in your posts is at worst simply a lie and at best a very one sided account which puts only one point of view As stated before I both studied these events As a part of an academic history and politics degree AND lived throughthe wars of the fities and sixties as a reader and follower of what ACTUALLY happened then. There has been a lot of modern and incorrect or biased  revision of that history which is part of the attempt by palestinians and their sympathisers to win a propaganda war after failing miserably to gain their ends through terrorism and warfare.


Maybe you have the wrong bible thumper here.  I'm not the one connecting religious prophecies and modern day politics.


View PostMr Walker, on 05 May 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Are you old enough to remember the olympic massacre, the hijacking of many aeroplanes and ships, and the deaths by terrorism, brought about by arabs including palestinians and their supporters?

I don't condone acts of terrorism.  Do you condone oppression, occupation and discrimination of civilian populations?

We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell

- Oscar Wilde




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