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how do religious people prove religion


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#1    ali smack

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 03:44 PM

how do religious people offer proof of there religions?
i'm just interested to hear and see proof?
BTW i'm not insulting anyone's beliefs!


#2    Lilly

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:35 PM

Uh...isn't religion based on faith? I mean, one doesn't have to *prove* anything where religion is concerned. And to be quite frank, there's really no way to prove such things outside of faith.

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#3    Jeffertonturner

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:54 PM

They can't prove, we can't disprove. Hense the fight.

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#4    Paranoid Android

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 05:24 PM

I have no empirical evidence for my beliefs.  But then, I have never claimed to have empirical proof.  So why should I be required to provide it for you?  I have my personal proofs/personal experiences that convince me of my views.  But just as your personal experience is unlikely to convince me of your world view, so is my personal experience unlikely to convince you of my world view.

So at its most basic level, there is no empirical proof.  But I suspect you knew that before you started this thread.  In the absence of such empirical proof, all we have is personal beliefs and experiences, and I'm sure we'll be on this merry-go-round for a long long time debating our experiences.  I prefer to simply accept that we have no proof, and move on to other religious-type matters that are so much more interesting to discuss.

In any case, whatever it is you do or do not believe in, I wish you the best :)

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#5    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 05:31 PM

The same way scientists prove there was a big bang. They don't and can't.

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#6    notforgotten

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:04 AM

Listen to the millions of witnesses over thousands of years who have given testimony to God, Jesus, the angels and saints in heaven. They also found the Ark and the Egyptian chariots under the Red Sea.

Edited by notforgotten, 05 May 2013 - 12:05 AM.


#7    Arbenol68

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 03:10 AM

View Postnotforgotten, on 05 May 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

They also found the Ark and the Egyptian chariots under the Red Sea.

Show me.


#8    Rlyeh

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:25 AM

View Postnotforgotten, on 05 May 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

Listen to the millions of witnesses over thousands of years who have given testimony to God, Jesus, the angels and saints in heaven. They also found the Ark and the Egyptian chariots under the Red Sea.
http://www.truthorfi...riot-wheels.htm

The Truth:
Much of this eRumor is based on the findings of Ron Wyatt, a colorful and controversial amateur archeologist who claimed to have found Noah's ark, the Biblical Ark of the Covenant, the location of Sodom And Gomorrah, the Tower of Babel, the true site of Mt. Sinai, the true site of the crucifixion of Jesus, and the original stones of the Ten Commandments.  He was a passionate and sincere man, according to his supporters, but his critics abound and scientists and archeologists regarded him as an untrained maverick at best and there are some who regarded his as a fraud.  Wyatt died from cancer in 1999.


#9    Rlyeh

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:27 AM

Speaking of amateurish discoveries, didn't someone also find Jesus' bones?


#10    Setton

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:58 AM

View Postnotforgotten, on 05 May 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

Listen to the millions of witnesses over thousands of years who have given testimony to God, Jesus, the angels and saints in heaven. They also found the Ark and the Egyptian chariots under the Red Sea.

View PostRlyeh, on 05 May 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

Speaking of amateurish discoveries, didn't someone also find Jesus' bones?

Obviously! Just look at the thousands of people throughout history who've owned one of his fingers! It must be true! And apparently he had hundreds of hands...

To answer the OP, we can't. That's why it's faith. Anyone who claims to be able to definitively prove any god's existence is lying.

Edited by Setton, 05 May 2013 - 11:59 AM.

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#11    WaknakiTohbi

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 05:06 PM

Religious people offer proof of their religion by being religious.

re·li·gion  (r-ljn)
n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
Idiom:
get religion Informal
1. To become religious or devout.
2. To resolve to end one's immoral behavior.

But that's not really what your asking is it??


#12    Orcseeker

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:50 PM

View PostHeaven Is A Halfpipe, on 04 May 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

The same way scientists prove there was a big bang. They don't and can't.

You forgot to add "theory" to "big bang". You would be surprised the difference that makes. Also it would make the "prove" in your sentence obsolete.

It is one thing to write something down with no proof and claim it to be factual. It is a whole other thing to propose a theory which can openly be contested and/or modified... Which is what the big bang THEORY is.


#13    AquilaChrysaetos

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 03:43 AM

View Postali smack, on 04 May 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

how do religious people offer proof of there religions?
i'm just interested to hear and see proof?

The same way anyone proves any theory, with hardcore evidence that is non-contradictory to other evidence.

As for the evidence for Monotheism as opposed to Polytheism, Pantheism, and Atheism; here are the two greatest evidences that due to space and time restrictions I cannot go into real thoroughly right now, and there are plenty of other arguments as well, but these are quite possibly the greatest:
  • Cosmological Argument - The entire known universe began out of nothing; Matter, Energy, Space, Time, and the natural Laws of Physics themselves began at the moment of the Big Bang. Essentially the entire universe is one big effect, with no known natural cause (which a natural cause is a logical contradiction in and of itself due to the fact that the natural laws of physics themselves began at the moment of the Big Bang). Logically since the universe has no natural cause, and assuming the scientifically and empirically foundational Law of Causality (everything that begins or changes has a cause) is true, the most Logically reasonable conclusion from that is a supernatural cause; meaning the universe was caused by either an immaterial uncaused object or an immaterial uncaused mind... This is evidenced by: Einstein's Theory of General Relativity, the Second Law of Thermodynamics, the Universal Expansion of the Spacetime Membrane itself, the Big Bang Radiation Afterglow of the Big Bang itself discovered by Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson in 1965, and the 1992 COBE satellite's findings of the Universe's precise expansion rate.
  • Teleological Argument - The precise Laws of physics for the Universe in order to support life. There are more than 100 narrowly defined cosmological constants that strongly point to an immaterial uncaused mind (an intelligent designer, a.k.a. God) as opposed to an immaterial uncaused object... To give a few examples: 1) If the Universe's gravitational force were altered by 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000001 percent, our sun would not exist, and, therefore, neither would we. 2) If the centrifugal force of planetary movements did not precisely balance the gravitational forces, nothing could be held in orbit around the sun. 3) If the universe had expanded at a rate one millionth more slowly than it did, expansion would have stopped, and the universe would have collapsed on itself before any stars had formed. If it had expanded faster, then no galaxies would have formed. (1992 COBE Satellite's discoveries as described above) 4) Any of the Laws of Physics can be described as a function of the velocity of light (now defined to be 299,792,458 meters per second). Even a slight variation in the speed of light would alter the other constants and preclude the possibility of life on Earth. 5) If Jupiter were not in its current orbit, the Earth would be bombarded with space material. Jupiter's gravitational field acts as a cosmic vaccum cleaner, attracting asteroids and comets that might otherwise strike Earth. 6) If the thickness of Earth's crust were greater, too much oxygen would be transferred to the crust to support life. If it were thinner, volcanic and tectonic activity would make life impossible. 7) If water vapor levels in the atmosphere were greater than they are now, a runaway greenhouse effect would cause temperatures to rise too high for human life; if they were less, an insufficient greenhouse effect would make the Earth too cold to support life. 8) If the rotation of the Earth took longer than twenty-four hours, temperature differences would be too great between night and day. If the rotation period were shorter, atmospheric wind velocities would be too great... These are just a few... Astrophysicist Hugh Ross calculated the probability that these and other constants - 122 in all - would exist today for any planet in the universe by chance (i.e., without divine design). Assuming there are 1022 planets in the universe (a very large number: 1 with 22 zeros following it), his answer is shocking: one chance in 10138 - that's one chance in one with 138 zeros after it. There are only 1070 atoms in the entire universe. In effect, there is zero chance that any planet in the universe would have the life-supporting conditions we have, unless there is an intelligent Designer behind it all. Therefore the most logical conclusion is that an uncaused immaterial concious mind created and designed the Universe.
Of course many will still not believe, many will interpret this evidence differently, and many will even block it from their mind in order to escape it. However the logic and evidence is inescapable. To me, God's existance is only logical, and that doesn't even include the evidence for Christianity. Therefore I think I have more than enough evidence for my faith.

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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#14    Rlyeh

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:38 AM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 06 May 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

Cosmological Argument -  Logically since the universe has no natural cause, and assuming the scientifically and empirically foundational Law of Causality (everything that begins or changes has a cause) is true, the most Logically reasonable conclusion from that is a supernatural cause; meaning the universe was caused by either an immaterial uncaused object or an immaterial uncaused mind...
String theory offers a natural cause.

Quote

Teleological Argument - The precise Laws of physics for the Universe in order to support life. There are more than 100 narrowly defined cosmological constants that strongly point to an immaterial uncaused mind (an intelligent designer, a.k.a. God) as opposed to an immaterial uncaused object... To give a few examples:
If the universe was different, then the universe would be different. Therefore God exists.
How is that even an argument? You're asserting these contants can and have been modified.


#15    Setton

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:37 AM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 06 May 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

Teleological Argument - The precise Laws of physics for the Universe in order to support life. There are more than 100 narrowly defined cosmological constants that strongly point to an immaterial uncaused mind (an intelligent designer, a.k.a. God) as opposed to an immaterial uncaused object... To give a few examples: 1) If the Universe's gravitational force were altered by 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000001 percent, our sun would not exist, and, therefore, neither would we. 2) If the centrifugal force of planetary movements did not precisely balance the gravitational forces, nothing could be held in orbit around the sun. 3) If the universe had expanded at a rate one millionth more slowly than it did, expansion would have stopped, and the universe would have collapsed on itself before any stars had formed. If it had expanded faster, then no galaxies would have formed. (1992 COBE Satellite's discoveries as described above) 4) Any of the Laws of Physics can be described as a function of the velocity of light (now defined to be 299,792,458 meters per second). Even a slight variation in the speed of light would alter the other constants and preclude the possibility of life on Earth. 5) If Jupiter were not in its current orbit, the Earth would be bombarded with space material. Jupiter's gravitational field acts as a cosmic vaccum cleaner, attracting asteroids and comets that might otherwise strike Earth. 6) If the thickness of Earth's crust were greater, too much oxygen would be transferred to the crust to support life. If it were thinner, volcanic and tectonic activity would make life impossible. 7) If water vapor levels in the atmosphere were greater than they are now, a runaway greenhouse effect would cause temperatures to rise too high for human life; if they were less, an insufficient greenhouse effect would make the Earth too cold to support life. 8) If the rotation of the Earth took longer than twenty-four hours, temperature differences would be too great between night and day. If the rotation period were shorter, atmospheric wind velocities would be too great... These are just a few... Astrophysicist Hugh Ross calculated the probability that these and other constants - 122 in all - would exist today for any planet in the universe by chance (i.e., without divine design). Assuming there are 1022 planets in the universe (a very large number: 1 with 22 zeros following it), his answer is shocking: one chance in 10138 - that's one chance in one with 138 zeros after it. There are only 1070 atoms in the entire universe. In effect, there is zero chance that any planet in the universe would have the life-supporting conditions we have, unless there is an intelligent Designer behind it all. Therefore the most logical conclusion is that an uncaused immaterial concious mind created and designed the Universe.
Of course many will still not believe, many will interpret this evidence differently, and many will even block it from their mind in order to escape it. However the logic and evidence is inescapable. To me, God's existance is only logical, and that doesn't even include the evidence for Christianity. Therefore I think I have more than enough evidence for my faith.

This entire argument is fundamentally flawed. Effectively you're saying that if things were a tiny bit different, we wouldn't be here. If you think about it, there's no reason these conditions couldn't have failed 10138 times. We wouldn't have existed to know about it. Can you see how it is flawed to say it's an incredible chance to observe a 1 in 10138 occurrence when there is no way to observe the other 10138-1 possibilities?

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.




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