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how do religious people prove religion


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#121    Doug1o29

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 04:57 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 12 May 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

That's kinda what I was saying.  Would you prefer I refer to God as "It?"  The English grammar I was taught was to use the masculine pronoun when the object is personified but the sex is unknown, except ships which get the feminine pronoun.
Me too.  The unknown is masculine, except ships.  But in Russia, ships are masculine:  "He is a good ship."
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Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#122    J. K.

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:07 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 12 May 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

The best guide to truth is to let science handle the physical and religion handle the metaphysical.  And asking how religious people prove religion misunderstands both religion and proof.
Doug

Hmm.  Does science have the capacity to measure love?  That's pretty intangible.

To answer the question about Peter and similar incidents:  being Christian doesn't guarantee proper behavior all of the time.  We still live in a world affected by sin and we still live under its influence.

One's reality is another's nightmare.

#123    Doug1o29

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:38 PM

View PostJ. K., on 12 May 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

Hmm.  Does science have the capacity to measure love?  That's pretty intangible.
Science has to stick to the physical.  Love falls into a gray area.  We always thought it was an intangible, but there is more and more evidence that it is hormonally (chemically) driven.  Apparently, concentrations of two chemical "messengers" control it.  That would make it two-dimensional in the Euclidean sense.  There are probably some other variables in there, like mental/psychological conditioning that determine the expression of love.  This is really a new field, so discoveries are coming quite rapidly.

Quote

To answer the question about Peter and similar incidents:  being Christian doesn't guarantee proper behavior all of the time.  We still live in a world affected by sin and we still live under its influence.
I'm basically a statistician.  I deal with uncertainty every day.  Uncertainty results from exceptions to the rule.  Nobody's asking for perfection, just a general rule by which an independent and impartial observer could tell whether a person was a Christian or not.  So far, the only one I know is the Nicene Creed and there are plenty of people who call themselves Christian and don't subscribe to all of it.  That might be an interesting study, right there.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#124    Mr Walker

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 10:35 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 12 May 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

Why would God "manifest" as anything other than what He is?  It might be said for our ability to comprehend, but since that will be impossible anyway, He may as well remain the burning bush.

God might manifest in a way that a sapient being could comprehend For example the language i hear god speak is english but of course god is not speaking english. ALL sapient beings who wish to communicate with another sapient being use a means which is comprehensible eg sign language or fire/technology (Think voyager space craft)

However i suspect, in a way you are correct. it is our minds which link to the mind of god. It is our minds which perceive the nature of god, and so we do tend to interpret god via those minds.

A third possibility is that god is a quantum creature subject to the observer effect, and that, in a way, we  see god as we wish to see him ie we cause him to manifest as we expect him to manifest .

However god demonstrates real physical power on earth  especially the abiltiy to  manipulate matter and energy. This speaks to the nature of god as much as anything does.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#125    Mr Walker

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 10:45 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 12 May 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

If you self-define as a theist, then you cannot be non-religious.  You may not be a particular religion, but you are religious.

Incorrect. A religion is an organised and codified system of belief, even if only a singular person holds to it. I have no such set of beliefs I just live in the presence of god.  Thus I am not religious.

This is possible for me because I have never BELIEVED in god and so had to adopt a set of beliefs about god. I went straight from athiest to someone who knew god physically. So i never adoped religious beliefs. I live as a christian for social and other purposes but  I could as easliy live as a buddhist or a jew or a pagan or a geaan, as long as i was connected to god.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#126    Mr Walker

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 11:02 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 12 May 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

That's a good definition, but it makes no distinction between theists and atheists.  Of course, atheism is a sort of religion.  It takes the assumption of Nothing and makes it a fact.  Logic can't do that because it can't operate on Nothing.  So atheism is reduced to the status of a religion.

Interesting distinction.  It probably makes sense within certain groups.  But among groups, it still leaves the outside observer unable to distinguish between them.

I have noticed that if you add up all the percentages claimed by various religious groups (including atheists), you get a total well over 300%.  And do the actual percentages actually matter?
Doug
No it doesnt make atheism a religion. What i meant was; take twin sisters. One becomes religious at a very young age, one is an atheist. If they live their lives according to their beliefs there should be considerable measurable difference in the nature and outcomes of those lives including relationships, longevity and health.   Thus one can observe the proof of religious life in measurable outcomes.
Yes but that wasn't the point of the comment. Some people HAVE proof of god's existence. Many have an equally strong FAITH in his existence.  Both groups act similarly on their knowledge/ belief, and so outcomes for them are the same..

Finally the statistics are remarkable uniform in all  official statistics. While many people are not "religious", about 90% actively profess a spiitual belief and component to their lives For 40 to 60% in most countries that also transfers to a religious affiliation. Regular results  of surveys and compilation of statistics by non religious groups show world wide atheism to be about 5% or less, although in some countries it reaches about 10%

Ps atheism here is the classic definition of a professed disbelief in the existence of any gods or god.

Edited by Mr Walker, 12 May 2013 - 11:41 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#127    danielost

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 11:03 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 12 May 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:


Science has to stick to the physical.  Love falls into a gray area.  We always thought it was an intangible, but there is more and more evidence that it is hormonally (chemically) driven.  Apparently, concentrations of two chemical "messengers" control it.  That would make it two-dimensional in the Euclidean sense.  There are probably some other variables in there, like mental/psychological conditioning that determine the expression of love.  This is really a new field, so discoveries are coming quite rapidly.

I'm basically a statistician.  I deal with uncertainty every day.  Uncertainty results from exceptions to the rule.  Nobody's asking for perfection, just a general rule by which an independent and impartial observer could tell whether a person was a Christian or not.  So far, the only one I know is the Nicene Creed and there are plenty of people who call themselves Christian and don't subscribe to all of it.  That might be an interesting study, right there.
Doug

I think science has that backwards love drives the hormones.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#128    Paranoid Android

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 06:50 AM

View PostDoug1o29, on 12 May 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

There are plenty of worthy ideas presented in the Bible.  But Peter carried a sword and cut off a man's ear, if we are to believe the story.  Were the Apostles Christians?
Peter's action here was a result of high tension (his master was being arrested).  As soon as he did it, Jesus rebuked him and healed the man's ear.  I suspect Jesus knew that Peter would react as he did.  It is implied earlier in the narrative when Jesus tells his disciples to sell their cloaks and buy a sword.  They answer that they already have two swords and he says "that will be enough" (I'm paraphrasing, I haven't gone to the Bible to give an exact quote).  Why would two swords be enough?  Certainly they couldn't hold a rebellion with two swords.  Even two swords among twelve disciples isn't enough even to protect themselves.  But it is enough if it was only used to cut off a soldier's ear, only for Jesus to rebuke him.  So I would argue that the apostles were Christian, and in this instance, Peter went and made a mistake.  Later in the narrative he also denies Jesus three times, but do we use his crisis of faith here to be the standard for Christians?  Certainly not.


View PostDoug1o29, on 12 May 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

It would be interesting to see a list of characteristics of Christians drawn from the Bible.  I'm sure this has been done, but I don't have a reference.

One example:  I occasionally see groups of people "praying" on a street corner as a demonstration of some "Christian" viewpoint - sort of a "Christian" protest.  But didn't Jesus say something about keeping your prayer private?  Doing it in a closet?  The people I'm thinking of wear the Christian uniform:  suits, ties, their Sunday-school best.  They think they're Christian, but there they are, making a big deal of how "sanctified" they are.  I don't see sanctity; I see hypocrisy.
I don't live in a highly Christian area of Australia, so I honestly don't see that kind of thing.  Most churches even don't get too formal - T-shirt and shorts are perfectly acceptable for "Sunday Best".  They could very well be praying just to look righteous, and if they are then they are guilty of the same hypocrisy as the Pharisees.  However, Jesus' comments on praying at street corners is not a blanket statement saying Christians should not pray together at church.  It's a matter of the heart - are they praying in order to glorify God and give thanks to him?  Or are they praying so that people can look at them and praise them for being so righteous?  It is this second motivation to which Jesus preaches against.

I'm also pretty sure someone compiled a list of Christ-like behaviours and characteristics, but off the top of my head I couldn't point you to any source that specifically outlines characteristics and their related references.  There are lists of behaviours given for Christians throughout the Bible, but they are not complete and do not represent everything Christians do.


View PostDoug1o29, on 12 May 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

I suspect you're right about such a test.  Somebody occasionally comes up with a test that shows that probability was soundly beaten.  They may have impressed themselves, but they forget that random chance will produce "significant" results a certain percentage of the time.  When these tests are repeated, the significance disappears.  And that's why people who understand the math aren't impressed by these tests.  A serious study would require hundreds, perhaps thousands of repetitions and nobody wants to put in that much work.

Imagine the howls of protest if some serious investigator applied for a grant to study the question.
Doug
Who'd protest?

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#129    J. K.

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 01:40 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 12 May 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Science has to stick to the physical.  Love falls into a gray area.  We always thought it was an intangible, but there is more and more evidence that it is hormonally (chemically) driven.  Apparently, concentrations of two chemical "messengers" control it.  That would make it two-dimensional in the Euclidean sense.  There are probably some other variables in there, like mental/psychological conditioning that determine the expression of love.  This is really a new field, so discoveries are coming quite rapidly.

If science ever invents wireless brain wave readers or chemical activity monitors, it would be interesting to monitor Christians and non-Christians in a worship service and see if anything shows up.

View PostDoug1o29, on 12 May 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

I'm basically a statistician.  I deal with uncertainty every day.  Uncertainty results from exceptions to the rule.  Nobody's asking for perfection, just a general rule by which an independent and impartial observer could tell whether a person was a Christian or not.  So far, the only one I know is the Nicene Creed and there are plenty of people who call themselves Christian and don't subscribe to all of it.  That might be an interesting study, right there.
Doug

Here are some general guidelines to follow, based on my own observations and experience in thirty years of ministry.  I apologize for the overuse of church terms.

Definition of a Christian: one who has trusted in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sin and leadership in life.  The Christian’s spirit has been regenerated (brought back to life).  The Christian’s mind is in a state of growth, becoming Christ-like.  The Christian’s body will be regenerated at the unknown time in the future when Jesus returns (known as the Rapture).  You will find variations of these observations in different denominations.

A Christian’s goal is to become more mature spiritually and mentally.  Because we still live in a world that is sinful (fallen), we are subject to sinful influences around us.  It impossible to become totally without sin, but we work to lessen its influence on us.  A Christian can do bad things, and a non-Christian can do good things.  Hopefully, the Christian will do fewer bad things as he matures.

An assessment question could be:

•  Does the person want to do good more and more as he matures?  (Again, this is not a fool-proof guideline, but it can be one bit of evidence.)

These are known as “fruits of the Spirit”: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. (Galatians 5:22-23).  These are the qualities that a Christian is to strive toward.

•  Does the person desire to express these qualities more often, especially as he matures?

•  Does the person actually express these qualities more often as he matures?

There are some other passages that list some similar qualities.  One of the ones mentioned is humility.  A true Christian will desire humility over arrogance.  Sadly, arrogance is a quality that seems to entrap us easily.  I have known a number of pastors over the years who struggle with this.

•  Does the person express humility more than arrogance over a period of time?  (Again, not a fool-proof indicator, but still a question to consider.)

This is a list of behaviors to avoid, called “works of the flesh”:  adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like. (Galatians 5:19-21).

•  Does the person avoid performing these acts, especially more and more as maturity grows?

Here are the words of Jesus concerning the function of Christians: “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."  (Matthew 28:19-20)

•  Does the person “make disciples of all the nations” – preach the gospel so that people may be “saved”?

•  Does the person baptize new believers as a symbol of their commitment?

•  Does the person express a desire to teach believers (edify, educate, build up, encourage)?

•  Does the person desire to meet the physical needs of those around him?  (This is based on a lengthy passage in Matthew 25:31-41).

More words of Jesus: “Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.’”

•  Does the person love God and express that love?

•  Does the person love others and express that love?

All of these questions are just some of the general guidelines for consideration.  A non-Christian can certainly do the good things.  I’ve even known con men who can talk and act like Christians, although their behavior eventually falls apart and reveals them.  I think the key would be to assess these things over a period of time; does the person appear to grow in these things?  Growth would be a positive indicator.  Stagnation may or may not be an indicator, as some people do lose interest in the things of God (churchy word: backslidden)


Edited by J. K., 13 May 2013 - 01:41 PM.

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#130    Doug1o29

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 02:36 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 13 May 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

I don't live in a highly Christian area of Australia, so I honestly don't see that kind of thing.
Lucky you.

Quote

Most churches even don't get too formal - T-shirt and shorts are perfectly acceptable for "Sunday Best".
I occasionally attend a Quaker meeting - same style, cutoff bluejeans and T-shirts.  Even the atheists dress up more.  The Quaker philosophy is:  God knows what you're like; you aren't going to fool Him by putting on a suit on Sunday while misbehaving the rest of the week.

Quote

They could very well be praying just to look righteous, and if they are then they are guilty of the same hypocrisy as the Pharisees.
I think that's exactly what they're doing.  Another reason I doubt that most "Christians" actually read the Bible.

Quote

However, Jesus' comments on praying at street corners is not a blanket statement saying Christians should not pray together at church.  It's a matter of the heart - are they praying in order to glorify God and give thanks to him?  Or are they praying so that people can look at them and praise them for being so righteous?  It is this second motivation to which Jesus preaches against.
I guess it depends on why you're praying.

Quote

Who'd protest?
You ought to live in America for awhile.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#131    Doug1o29

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 02:42 PM

View PostJ. K., on 13 May 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

If science ever invents wireless brain wave readers or chemical activity monitors, it would be interesting to monitor Christians and non-Christians in a worship service and see if anything shows up.

I believe that has already been done - no measureable differences.  Worship is worship.  No disctinctions.

Quote

Definition of a Christian: one who has trusted in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sin and leadership in life.  The Christian’s spirit has been regenerated (brought back to life).  The Christian’s mind is in a state of growth, becoming Christ-like.  The Christian’s body will be regenerated at the unknown time in the future when Jesus returns (known as the Rapture).  You will find variations of these observations in different denominations.

A Christian’s goal is to become more mature spiritually and mentally.  Because we still live in a world that is sinful (fallen), we are subject to sinful influences around us.  It impossible to become totally without sin, but we work to lessen its influence on us.  A Christian can do bad things, and a non-Christian can do good things.  Hopefully, the Christian will do fewer bad things as he matures.

An assessment question could be:

•  Does the person want to do good more and more as he matures?  (Again, this is not a fool-proof guideline, but it can be one bit of evidence.)

These are known as “fruits of the Spirit”: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. (Galatians 5:22-23).  These are the qualities that a Christian is to strive toward.

•  Does the person desire to express these qualities more often, especially as he matures?

•  Does the person actually express these qualities more often as he matures?

There are some other passages that list some similar qualities.  One of the ones mentioned is humility.  A true Christian will desire humility over arrogance.  Sadly, arrogance is a quality that seems to entrap us easily.  I have known a number of pastors over the years who struggle with this.

•  Does the person express humility more than arrogance over a period of time?  (Again, not a fool-proof indicator, but still a question to consider.)

This is a list of behaviors to avoid, called “works of the flesh”:  adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like. (Galatians 5:19-21).

•  Does the person avoid performing these acts, especially more and more as maturity grows?

Here are the words of Jesus concerning the function of Christians: “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."  (Matthew 28:19-20)

•  Does the person “make disciples of all the nations” – preach the gospel so that people may be “saved”?

•  Does the person baptize new believers as a symbol of their commitment?

•  Does the person express a desire to teach believers (edify, educate, build up, encourage)?

•  Does the person desire to meet the physical needs of those around him?  (This is based on a lengthy passage in Matthew 25:31-41).

More words of Jesus: “Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.’”

•  Does the person love God and express that love?

•  Does the person love others and express that love?

All of these questions are just some of the general guidelines for consideration.  A non-Christian can certainly do the good things.  I’ve even known con men who can talk and act like Christians, although their behavior eventually falls apart and reveals them.  I think the key would be to assess these things over a period of time; does the person appear to grow in these things?  Growth would be a positive indicator.  Stagnation may or may not be an indicator, as some people do lose interest in the things of God (churchy word: backslidden)
Excellent list.

Thanks for your efforts.  I really appreciate talking with someone to actually knows what he's about.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#132    J. K.

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 03:07 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 13 May 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

I believe that has already been done - no measureable differences.  Worship is worship.  No disctinctions.


Hmm, I would have thought there was at least an endorphin release, although it's possible that's just the standard reaction some people have when hearing music that moves them.  I am aware of four different physiological responses that I have to certain spiritual stimuli.

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#133    Paranoid Android

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:52 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 13 May 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Lucky you.
I do feel lucky to live in Australia.


View PostDoug1o29, on 13 May 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

I occasionally attend a Quaker meeting - same style, cutoff bluejeans and T-shirts.  Even the atheists dress up more.  The Quaker philosophy is:  God knows what you're like; you aren't going to fool Him by putting on a suit on Sunday while misbehaving the rest of the week.
The church here is just a random run-of-the-mill protestant organisations.  It's technically an "Anglican" service, but I've seen similar in pretty much every organisation (except the Mormons, they dress up, I've noticed).  It's funny, if you go to church on Christmas or Easter, you can tell the regulars from those who attend church only twice a year.  The regulars are wearing shorts, sandals and t-shirts, the ones that only go once a year are dressed in suits.


View PostDoug1o29, on 13 May 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

I think that's exactly what they're doing.  Another reason I doubt that most "Christians" actually read the Bible.

I guess it depends on why you're praying.
I think that's exactly what it comes down to - why are they praying?  You may very well be right, I'm not doubting you.


View PostDoug1o29, on 13 May 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

You ought to live in America for awhile.
Doug
No, I really don't think I ought to do any such thing.  I like Australia.  Maybe I'll go to America for a holiday one day, but I'll still call Australia home.  Who in America would protest, if you don't mind my asking?

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#134    Doug1o29

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:40 PM

View PostJ. K., on 13 May 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

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Hmm, I would have thought there was at least an endorphin release, although it's possible that's just the standard reaction some people have when hearing music that moves them.  I am aware of four different physiological responses that I have to certain spiritual stimuli.
What I meant was no measureable distinctions between different kinds of worship.  Not the same as worship vs. no worship.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#135    Doug1o29

Doug1o29

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:50 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 13 May 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

No, I really don't think I ought to do any such thing.  I like Australia.  Maybe I'll go to America for a holiday one day, but I'll still call Australia home.  Who in America would protest, if you don't mind my asking?
I've heard lots of good things about Australia.  I colleague went there on sabbatical a few years ago.  He liked it and was ready to move if he could find a job.

In America the religious right says it's the largest religious group and at the same time claims to be a persecuted minority.  They are very much afraid that somebody will prove there's no god and that will be the end for them.  They are bent on promoting a fundamental, right-wing form of Christianity to the exclusion of all others.  Some are even talking of amending or over-throwing the Constitution to set up their version of Christianity as the official religion.

The First Amendment protects the right to be a religious nut-job if you want to, so in America, we produce them wholesale.  Mostly, they just cancel each other out, but in the last few years some big-money interests have started backing right-wing politicians.

The demographics are changing.  We'll see where all this ends up.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott




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