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how do religious people prove religion


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#151    Bluefinger

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:51 PM

View Postlaver, on 14 May 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:



Oh dear.. where does the church find these arrogant nutters....?

Read up on King Louis XIV and the expulsion of the Hugenots.  Similar scenario, IMO.

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#152    Mr Walker

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:26 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 14 May 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

There are dictators and there are tyrants, and in spite of local myths there really isn't any other kind of government.  Don't confuse the two (a good clue is that you will recognize the name of one of the latter but probably not one of the former, unless its a major country).

Reading some of the above, claiming that the US somehow has a special divine status deriving, I suppose, from its Christianity, is nauseatingly chauvinistic, considering some of the evils that the US has been responsible for.  Now don't misunderstand; all nations have things in their history that they would rather forget, but they don't make for an effective claim to being special.

The US has no special divine status but we have been very lucky as a world to have America evolve as the dominant world power given the many alternative possibilities Sometimes america has bee too isolationist and slow to intervene, Sometimes too interventionist and quick to intervene, but it responds to its people in this and it is one of the great working democracies of the world.

America is not treally even an imperialst power although the nature of its economy and technology makes it defacto imperialist in many senses including economically, language film and mass media, for example.

America has not been wrong in much of its foreign policy, IF you accept tha t a country has a right to mpose ethicla standards and moralities on other countries where it can.

Communism caused great harship, pain and suffering around the world. People in communist countries just didnt believe the wealth and choice available to people in contires like america and australia.

But the main thing was the freedom of peole in countries like America, compared to those in so many countries This remains the hall mark of the great democracies today and much intervention in other countries is primarily aimed at increasing the freedom of their peoples Unfortunately it is a bit naive, because freedom comes as a function of social and economic systems. You cant succesfully give freedom without robust  educated and cohesive societies, and economies to support it

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#153    Setton

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:26 AM

View PostBluefinger, on 14 May 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

No.  If you don't even think about the Abrahamic Covenant, then Revelation doesn't make half the sense it actually could.  What did God promise Abraham?

- Countless seed, land sovereignty, blessings to all that bless his seed and curses to those that curse them, and that all the families of the earth would be blessed through them.

Now, God didn't do that just for the heck of it.  Abraham was blessed because he had faith and loved righteousness, even to the point that he was willing to give up all he had been given before he ever took any blessing by force.  This is the kind of character that God wantes to build His kingdom on.

So God blessed Abraham's seed exceedingly, even taking lan away from the wicked and giving it to Israel.  Israel had no concern for righteousness, justice, an steadfast love like Abraham did.  Instead of blessing the nations with righteousness, they sought to assimilate to the cultures of those nations.  So injustice and wickedness continued unhindered.  So the blessings were removed by God and the people exiled to Babylon.  

When Jesus came, He opened the Abrahamic covenant to all people who had faith, not just the physical descendants of Abraham.  (Gal. 3:13-14, Rom. 11.)

God wanted this so righteousness could fill the earth and bless all nations.  The point of salvation was not for us to leave the body and go to heaven after we die, as has been purported by my brothers of the last 1900 years.  It was rather for righteousness and justice to flow on earth like a mighty river.  Sadly to say, the same Greek philosophy that many use to refute Christianity became the dominant sphere of developing Christian thought beinginning in the second century.

Anyway, the point of the two witnesses is not avoid judgment, as you say I'm asserting.  It is to spread the Gospel of God's kingdom and His righteousness.  Israel had abandoned their commission and paid for it.  No nation is exempt from that consequence either.

Then perhaps you should phrase your statements so that's not what they say.

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Seems like you were just itching to make a villain out of me.  I didn't say they wouldn't be judged (especially in a spiritual context.)  I said they could do whatever they wanted and not yield to others.  And hasn't that been true from the days of Constantine unto today?

No...

Again, go and study history.

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But as I said, it wasn't for the sake of power, but for the sake of righteousness.  I think you are anxious to make your own point, so the floor is yours.

If I wanted to make a further point, I would have done so already. I don't need your permission. Given that you have yet to deal with the first points I made, I'll hold off for now.

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Wow.  I would like to have an analytic an critical discussion about this.  If you have no interest in that and just want to shame me in public for your own gratification then let me know and I'll stop discussing this with you.  Word?

Please go ahead and explain how you reconcile Jesus' teachings not judge with your claim you have the right to judge.

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The canonization of the Bible wasn't very political, unless you are talking about the division of citizens between Trinitarianism an Arianism.  The emperors swtiched occassionally, based on which party gave a more compelling argument.  But the State's main aim was to avoid what we have between Democrats and Republicans by unifying all citizens under one brand of Christianity.  It was necessary for peace, which was traditionally held as of utmost importance in their culture and values.

So it's shear coincidence that any books that took power from those making the decisions were left out but directly contradictory books were included? I'm not sure what's more worrying so far: your grasp of history or your naivety.

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So you make up your own teachings and then criticize me for the ones I hold.  Doesn't that seem a bit hypocritical?

My teachings do not contradict themselves or put me above others.

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What, according to you then, is the kingdom of God?

I believe I answered that in my last post. I think the Kingdom of your God is a place of tyrants where those declared 'special' are placed above others. As for my God? Depends which one you go with. My faith is still in its early stages while I figure things out.

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Right, countries, not country.  And only as long as the Church is spreading righteousness in faith.  That is not a copout either.  That is what happened with Israel.

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Going to extremes to make your point.  I wasn't aware that logic was being thrown out.

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Perhaps the one that blesses the saints, as was stated in the Abrahamic Promises:  "Those that bless you will be blessed."

So the blessed countries are those that bless the saints? And the blessed countries are most powerful? So why are countries with the most Christians not the most powerful? There is not, and never has been any correlation between the two.

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Russia also killed hundreds of thousands of Christians over their 70 years as an empire.

And how many do you think America killed during the Revolution and its civil war?

I'll give you a hint, it also runs into hundreds of thousands.

The French Empire was killing Christians in their thousands during the Napoleonic Wars. And they went from strength to strength in that time.

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That's not the point.  Christianity didn't form out of a democracy.  So we should stop assuming that the kingdom of God was based on the any state's constitution.

Excellent. Dictatorship it is. Ruled by a God who best resembles a petty toddler.

As I said, the Kingdom of MY God. Perhaps I do come up with my own beliefs. Maybe they are just nonsense. But I'd take my imaginary world over yours any day and I'll be on my Gods' side even if there aren't any Gods to lead it. So maybe I won't make it into the Kingdom of your God. But that's a small price to pay if it's the way you believe it to be.

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#154    Doug1o29

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:59 PM

View PostBluefinger, on 14 May 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

Russia also killed hundreds of thousands of Christians over their 70 years as an empire.
And the dictator in charge of that was Stalin, an Orthodox Christian.  A huge number of Christians have died at the hands of other Christians.  Thirty Years War, Hundred Years War, Reformation, etc.

About arrogance:  Anyone who thinks their way is the only way is arrogant, no matter how they rationalize it.
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Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
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#155    Bluefinger

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 06:18 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 15 May 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:


And the dictator in charge of that was Stalin, an Orthodox Christian.  A huge number of Christians have died at the hands of other Christians.  Thirty Years War, Hundred Years War, Reformation, etc.

I believe you are missing the part about knowing them by their fruits.

The kingdom of God is a kingdom of righteousness.  Jesus wants fruits of righteousness.  That is why the wicked have lose their lot.  The use God's name for their own wicked schemes.   Israel tried that and failed, much less Russia and its 'Orthodox' Stalin.

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About arrogance:  Anyone who thinks their way is the only way is arrogant, no matter how they rationalize it.
Doug

Says who?

It is not enough to have a good mind.  The main thing is to use it well.     - Descartes

#156    Sherapy

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 06:22 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 15 May 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

And the dictator in charge of that was Stalin, an Orthodox Christian.  A huge number of Christians have died at the hands of other Christians.  Thirty Years War, Hundred Years War, Reformation, etc.

About arrogance:  Anyone who thinks their way is the only way is arrogant, no matter how they rationalize it.
Doug

I think that an egocentric perspective keeps one in ignorance (not able to consider other options) and can lead to arrogance ( I do not think it always does though.) Often the person simply does not know any other way. I have known people who were intelligent-- yet ignorant at the same time and IMO it has to  do with this inability to consider/take other perspectives.The idea that the only perspective that exists is the one they have has been taught in error and after a certain point in ones maturity, it is a flaw that can limit ones ability to see alternatives, to consider options, to grow as a person. A truly fixed mindset is not an easy one to overcome, it is a long process that takes work.

Edited by Sherapy, 15 May 2013 - 07:16 PM.


#157    Sherapy

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:32 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 14 May 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

There are dictators and there are tyrants, and in spite of local myths there really isn't any other kind of government.  Don't confuse the two (a good clue is that you will recognize the name of one of the latter but probably not one of the former, unless its a major country).

Reading some of the above, claiming that the US somehow has a special divine status deriving, I suppose, from its Christianity, is nauseatingly chauvinistic, considering some of the evils that the US has been responsible for.  Now don't misunderstand; all nations have things in their history that they would rather forget, but they don't make for an effective claim to being special.

Frank, not every American holds to an opinion that we are special. Take the treatment of gays these days it is awful that our gay community has to fight to have equal rights. I am not okay with this. Let me go on record as being an American who says we make mistakes terrible ones and sometimes we do not even learn from them.


#158    Doug1o29

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:39 PM

View PostBluefinger, on 15 May 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

I believe you are missing the part about knowing them by their fruits.
Shall we start with the Inquisition?  Or how about the Salem witch trials?  I can think of a lot of rotten fruit Christianity has borne.

Quote

The kingdom of God is a kingdom of righteousness.  Jesus wants fruits of righteousness.  That is why the wicked have lose their lot.  The use God's name for their own wicked schemes.   Israel tried that and failed, much less Russia and its 'Orthodox' Stalin.
That is, of course, if there is such a kingdom.

The evidence that Jesus ever lived is vanishingly small.  It consists of an implication in the writings of Papias to the effect that Papias had heard John speak.  The implication is that if there was a student (Apostle), there must have been a teacher.  Papias also mentions the daughters of Philip, but does not claim ever to have met Philip.  Same implication:  if Philip is real and a follower of Jesus, then there must have been a Jesus.

There is no certainty that Papias, himself, is not a Christian redaction of history, but he does seem to fit about 120 AD.

Kingdom of god?  What god?

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Says who?
Says the poor guy who is the victim of that arrogance.
Doug

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Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#159    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:36 PM

View PostSherapy, on 15 May 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

Frank, not every American holds to an opinion that we are special. Take the treatment of gays these days it is awful that our gay community has to fight to have equal rights. I am not okay with this. Let me go on record as being an American who says we make mistakes terrible ones and sometimes we do not even learn from them.

Agreed, as a fellow American I second your sentiment here concerning the US.  I'm of the opinion, with full admission of my ignorance of the details of other country's governments, that our Constitution is one of the most brilliant documents ever created and, if what was written in it was actually followed and enforced and the government and society behaved true to the spirit of it argghhhh!!, would be the best foundation of government to date.  But our less-than-perfect implementation and application of those ideas, and the government's outright evasion of the Constitution when it's convenient, results in us making mistakes, as well as just plain engaging in fully-intended terrible actions, with results just as evil and uncivilized as most any other country.  We are number one in many good things as well as bad things, but I'm certainly not convinced that in any overall sense we are the greatest country in the world.

Okay, rant off, sorry.  My point actually was that Frank was responding to bluefinger I believe when he was referring to Americans feeling they're special, not all us Americans, and I think Frank's interpretation of what bluefinger wrote is accurate; he has insinuated the US is special in some way, something to do with Christianity and how we are blessed to have Christians living amongst us and without Christianity our nation will fall and similar statements in this same humble Christian vein.

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#160    laver

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 12:53 AM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 15 May 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

Agreed, as a fellow American I second your sentiment here concerning the US.  I'm of the opinion, with full admission of my ignorance of the details of other country's governments, that our Constitution is one of the most brilliant documents ever created and, if what was written in it was actually followed and enforced and the government and society behaved true to the spirit of it argghhhh!!, would be the best foundation of government to date.  But our less-than-perfect implementation and application of those ideas, and the government's outright evasion of the Constitution when it's convenient, results in us making mistakes, as well as just plain engaging in fully-intended terrible actions, with results just as evil and uncivilized as most any other country.  We are number one in many good things as well as bad things, but I'm certainly not convinced that in any overall sense we are the greatest country in the world.

Okay, rant off, sorry.  My point actually was that Frank was responding to bluefinger I believe when he was referring to Americans feeling they're special, not all us Americans, and I think Frank's interpretation of what bluefinger wrote is accurate; he has insinuated the US is special in some way, something to do with Christianity and how we are blessed to have Christians living amongst us and without Christianity our nation will fall and similar statements in this same humble Christian vein.

God Bless America ! To many of us outside the U S of A the way you are governed by religious lobbies is a real turn off and clearly not the intention of the your founders.
Go back to your roots and rebuild as the land of Free..... Free from religious bigots.


#161    Sherapy

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 12:57 AM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 15 May 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

Agreed, as a fellow American I second your sentiment here concerning the US.  I'm of the opinion, with full admission of my ignorance of the details of other country's governments, that our Constitution is one of the most brilliant documents ever created and, if what was written in it was actually followed and enforced and the government and society behaved true to the spirit of it argghhhh!!, would be the best foundation of government to date.  But our less-than-perfect implementation and application of those ideas, and the government's outright evasion of the Constitution when it's convenient, results in us making mistakes, as well as just plain engaging in fully-intended terrible actions, with results just as evil and uncivilized as most any other country.  We are number one in many good things as well as bad things, but I'm certainly not convinced that in any overall sense we are the greatest country in the world.

Okay, rant off, sorry.  My point actually was that Frank was responding to bluefinger I believe when he was referring to Americans feeling they're special, not all us Americans, and I think Frank's interpretation of what bluefinger wrote is accurate; he has insinuated the US is special in some way, something to do with Christianity and how we are blessed to have Christians living amongst us and without Christianity our nation will fall and similar statements in this same humble Christian vein.

Well said! In some contexts I think we have had an occasional christian who lead with love and non violence King comes to mind for me. Yet some times our Christian community gets stuck in a fixed mindset gets lost for a while. Yet, I am always optimistic that with work, awareness, great conversation, and constructive feedback things can change.

Edited by Sherapy, 16 May 2013 - 12:58 AM.


#162    laver

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 01:14 AM

View PostSherapy, on 16 May 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

Well said! In some contexts I think we have had an occasional christian who lead with love and non violence King comes to mind for me. Yet some times our Christian community gets stuck in a fixed mindset gets lost for a while. Yet, I am always optimistic that with work, awareness, great conversation, and constructive feedback things can change.

Small chance of that; your so called 'Christians' are armed to the teeth and just itching for a fight !


#163    Sherapy

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:30 AM

View Postlaver, on 16 May 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

Small chance of that; your so called 'Christians' are armed to the teeth and just itching for a fight !

I am fortunate to know some Christians who are growth oriented and fight for that. I also know some who probably will not change.For me --in this case-- optimism is not the worst way to go.


#164    Frank Merton

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:50 AM

Of course I know the vast majority of Americans are well aware of the good and bad aspects of their country, and for the most part have every right to be proud of what it has achieved.  I just don't credit Christianity for it, but instead stable (reasonably) government, lucky geography and free market and free immigration policies (at least until about 50 years ago) and a British cultural inheritance with enrichments from all over.   (In particular I would say there is something about the English language that I can't figure out that seems to make English cultures more successful over time).


#165    Abramelin

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:00 AM

View Postnotforgotten, on 05 May 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

Listen to the millions of witnesses over thousands of years who have given testimony to God, Jesus, the angels and saints in heaven. They also found the Ark and the Egyptian chariots under the Red Sea.

They never found the Ark, and that 'chariot' was a wheel.... with Toyota written on it,





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