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how do religious people prove religion


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#166    laver

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:28 AM

View PostSherapy, on 16 May 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

I am fortunate to know some Christians who are growth oriented and fight for that. I also know some who probably will not change.For me --in this case-- optimism is not the worst way to go.

Good Luck; it looks like you are going to need it, as we all will, to unravel the huge mess that the Abrahamic religions have created in our world


#167    Bluefinger

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 04:18 PM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 15 May 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:


Okay, rant off, sorry.  My point actually was that Frank was responding to bluefinger I believe when he was referring to Americans feeling they're special, not all us Americans, and I think Frank's interpretation of what bluefinger wrote is accurate; he has insinuated the US is special in some way, something to do with Christianity and how we are blessed to have Christians living amongst us and without Christianity our nation will fall and similar statements in this same humble Christian vein.

You really don't think that America would fall if the Christians in this country left?  

I think your opinion of Christianity may be clouding your better judgment.

I understand the point you are trying to make.  I just think people jumped the gun on what I said and clumped me in with people that say America was founded as a Christian nation.

I wasn't saying that.  But I was saying that this country is blessed for how well the State treats the Christians.  But Christianity was not founded on American principles, so I think we can stop assuming that the two go hand-in-hand.  Christianity has survived the dicatorships of Rome, the monarchies of the Germanic tribes, the socialism of Nazi Germany, and the communism of the Soviet Union and China.  It will outlast the democracy of America too.

Christ is not an American.  His kingdom is a kingdom of righteousness and God's blessings are intended for righteousness.  And His Church has been charged to spread righteousness.  If America fails to stand up for righteousness and oppresses those who call for it, the same will happen to it as what happened to Israel, Rome, and every other nation.

The key to prosperity is faithfulness and righteousness.  I wonder if our country has much of that left.

So I meant to say that those that bless the saints are blessed, which is why America is so blessed.  Not because this is a Christian country.

And we can drop unreasonable superstition that the Christians in America are going to resurrect the monarchy system and go on holy wars.

Edited by Bluefinger, 16 May 2013 - 04:23 PM.

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#168    Sherapy

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 04:41 PM

View PostBluefinger, on 16 May 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

You really don't think that America would fall if the Christians in this country left?  

I think your opinion of Christianity may be clouding your better judgment.

I understand the point you are trying to make.  I just think people jumped the gun on what I said and clumped me in with people that say America was founded as a Christian nation.

I wasn't saying that.  But I was saying that this country is blessed for how well the State treats the Christians.  But Christianity was not founded on American principles, so I think we can stop assuming that the two go hand-in-hand.  Christianity has survived the dicatorships of Rome, the monarchies of the Germanic tribes, the socialism of Nazi Germany, and the communism of the Soviet Union and China.  It will outlast the democracy of America too.

Christ is not an American.  His kingdom is a kingdom of righteousness and God's blessings are intended for righteousness.  And His Church has been charged to spread righteousness.  If America fails to stand up for righteousness and oppresses those who call for it, the same will happen to it as what happened to Israel, Rome, and every other nation.

The key to prosperity is faithfulness and righteousness.  I wonder if our country has much of that left.

So I meant to say that those that bless the saints are blessed, which is why America is so blessed.  Not because this is a Christian country.

And we can drop unreasonable superstition that the Christians in America are going to resurrect the monarchy system and go on holy wars.

If I was to infer your post, I'd say it would be fair to conclude you do think that without the Christian's we would fall.

I think for you this is more of a projection of what your faith means to you, that you couldn't survive without Christianity more then anything else.

What is cool about America is you are free to think and say this.

I am free to think and say something else which is I do not think any one group or ideology is so valuable that it cannot grow, change, or become obsolete as it no longer serves a purpose.

I also think that the way some Christians practice may render it's end as opposed to its longevity, Do I have a preference? No, not really, as I  am a growth oriented type myself and am okay with being wrong, after all.




#169    Bluefinger

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 05:29 PM

View PostSherapy, on 16 May 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:



If I was to infer your post, I'd say it would be fair to conclude you do think that without the Christian's we would fall.

I think for you this is more of a projection of what your faith means to you, that you couldn't survive without Christianity more then anything else.

What is cool about America is you are free to think and say this.

I am free to think and say something else which is I do not think any one group or ideology is so valuable that it cannot grow, change, or become obsolete as it no longer serves a purpose.

I also think that the way some Christians practice may render it's end as opposed to its longevity, Do I have a preference? No, not really, as I  am a growth oriented type myself and am okay with being wrong, after all.

What I mean is, do you really think this country would last if all the Christians were not welcome and left?

Now, think about how much of the economy is composed of Christian workers and consumers.  This includes immigrants, legal and illegal.  

Then, crime would be an even greater issue because you'd have less volunteers for community programs such as youth centers, etc.

The simple reality is Christianity is a part of the fabric of everyday Anerican society.  You can change peoples' beliefs and keep the country running.  But you can't expect the country to function without such a major core of its economic and service work force.

Edited by Bluefinger, 16 May 2013 - 05:29 PM.

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#170    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 05:38 PM

View PostBluefinger, on 16 May 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

You really don't think that America would fall if the Christians in this country left?  

I think your opinion of Christianity may be clouding your better judgment.

I understand the point you are trying to make.  I just think people jumped the gun on what I said and clumped me in with people that say America was founded as a Christian nation.

I wasn't saying that.  But I was saying that this country is blessed for how well the State treats the Christians.  But Christianity was not founded on American principles, so I think we can stop assuming that the two go hand-in-hand.  Christianity has survived the dicatorships of Rome, the monarchies of the Germanic tribes, the socialism of Nazi Germany, and the communism of the Soviet Union and China.  It will outlast the democracy of America too.

Christ is not an American.  His kingdom is a kingdom of righteousness and God's blessings are intended for righteousness.  And His Church has been charged to spread righteousness.  If America fails to stand up for righteousness and oppresses those who call for it, the same will happen to it as what happened to Israel, Rome, and every other nation.

The key to prosperity is faithfulness and righteousness.  I wonder if our country has much of that left.

So I meant to say that those that bless the saints are blessed, which is why America is so blessed.  Not because this is a Christian country.

And we can drop unreasonable superstition that the Christians in America are going to resurrect the monarchy system and go on holy wars.

And how are they going to spread "righteousness" if not for wars?

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#171    Gromdor

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:01 PM

View PostBluefinger, on 16 May 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

What I mean is, do you really think this country would last if all the Christians were not welcome and left?

Now, think about how much of the economy is composed of Christian workers and consumers.  This includes immigrants, legal and illegal.  

Then, crime would be an even greater issue because you'd have less volunteers for community programs such as youth centers, etc.

The simple reality is Christianity is a part of the fabric of everyday Anerican society.  You can change peoples' beliefs and keep the country running.  But you can't expect the country to function without such a major core of its economic and service work force.
The same could be said about women, blacks, or any other large demographic group.  The "special" nature you are applying to Christians in the U.S. is because of the size of its population and not because of any divine privilege, however.  Sixty percent of Christians today live in third world countries in South America, Africa, and Asia.  Many of these third world countries have a higher percentage of the population being Christian than the United States.  If being Christian brings blessings and prosperity from God, then the facts do not tend to agree.


#172    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:17 PM

View PostBluefinger, on 16 May 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

What I mean is, do you really think this country would last if all the Christians were not welcome and left?

No, not necessarily.  But based on your response to Sherapy, the relevant part of your argument is not that they are Christian, but that they are American; I think your question is more accurately phrased, "if 3/4 of the American population left, would the nation fall?'.


Quote

I think your opinion of Christianity may be clouding your better judgment.

Please provide the evidence of my 'opinion of Christianity'.  I'll refrain from likewise providing my evidence-free opinions of your psychology save for, 'I think your opinion of Christianity may be clouding your better judgment'.

Quote

I understand the point you are trying to make.  I just think people jumped the gun on what I said and clumped me in with people that say America was founded as a Christian nation.

I didn't necessarily think that, I thought you were saying how essential Christians are to America's continuation as a nation.  I think now that you are just saying that Americans are essential to America's continuation, to some extent I agree but that's pretty obvious I think.

Quote

I wasn't saying that.  But I was saying that this country is blessed for how well the State treats the Christians.  But Christianity was not founded on American principles, so I think we can stop assuming that the two go hand-in-hand.  Christianity has survived the dicatorships of Rome, the monarchies of the Germanic tribes, the socialism of Nazi Germany, and the communism of the Soviet Union and China.  It will outlast the democracy of America too.

Democracy, tyranny, commerce, etc, have also outlasted all of those countries.  We don't know that Christianity in the future won't go the way of belief in the Greek gods.

Quote

If America fails to stand up for righteousness and oppresses those who call for it, the same will happen to it as what happened to Israel, Rome, and every other nation.

Which is that, like those countries/cities you mention, they will persevere despite calamities?

Quote

The key to prosperity is faithfulness and righteousness.  I wonder if our country has much of that left.

I disagree, I don't think 'faithfulness' is a key to the prosperity of countries, only to certain people who have a personal need for it.

Quote

So I meant to say that those that bless the saints are blessed, which is why America is so blessed.  Not because this is a Christian country.

We are 'so blessed' compared to whom?  Compared to Kenya or compared to Sweden?

Quote

And we can drop unreasonable superstition that the Christians in America are going to resurrect the monarchy system and go on holy wars.

Sure, let's, don't think I ever conveyed that superstition.

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#173    Bluefinger

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:50 PM

View PostHavocWing, on 16 May 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:



And how are they going to spread "righteousness" if not for wars?

Good point.  If people don't desire what is right, or righteousness, but have pleasure in unrighteousness.  What is one to do?

The better question is, what would happen of there was no righteousness in the land at all.  

Righteousness is spread by practicing and passing on Jesus' teachings, including loving our enemies and forgiiving those who hurt us.  In that case, we the people are very wicked.

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#174    pallidin

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:14 PM

For many, "God" cannot be "proven".

As such, the "religions" are primarly faith-based.


#175    Sherapy

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 05:47 AM

View PostBluefinger, on 16 May 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

What I mean is, do you really think this country would last if all the Christians were not welcome and left?

Now, think about how much of the economy is composed of Christian workers and consumers.  This includes immigrants, legal and illegal.  

Then, crime would be an even greater issue because you'd have less volunteers for community programs such as youth centers, etc.

The simple reality is Christianity is a part of the fabric of everyday Anerican society.  You can change peoples' beliefs and keep the country running.  But you can't expect the country to function without such a major core of its economic and service work force.

I have no desire to see anybody leave here; in fact, I respect you Matthew-- didn't you serve in the military? I am even one of those that welcome anyone to our borders. I just do not think that any one religion, race, or creed is more special then another or so divine that they are more important then anyone else or do more then anyone else.

Edited by Sherapy, 17 May 2013 - 05:47 AM.




#176    Bluefinger

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 12:02 PM

View PostSherapy, on 17 May 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:



I have no desire to see anybody leave here; in fact, I respect you Matthew-- didn't you serve in the military? I am even one of those that welcome anyone to our borders. I just do not think that any one religion, race, or creed is more special then another or so divine that they are more important then anyone else or do more then anyone else.

I here ya.  And yes, I do serve.  My beliefs do not reflect the military's position on religion though.  So the military does not support my beliefs about religion.

I welcome anybody too.  But I'm not talking about the privilege of being an American.  I'm talking specifically of being a Christian in a Christian community in the kingdom of God, which got along just fine without America and under the cruel tyranny of pagan bureaucrats.  

The kingdom of God is a kingdom that takes hold in the hearts of those with faith (the Church.)  The point of the kingdom of God is to practice and teach righteousness.  God intends for this kingdom to take over the world, thus filling the earth with righteousness.  Where the Church is (not specifically Roman, Coptic, Korean, or Orthodox), there is also the kingdom of God and the presence of its King.  And there, I would hope, righteousness, justice, and the steadfast love of living our enemies an forgiving out debtors would be found.

Now, concerning righteousness, I find it to be a great concern that many here care more about freedom than about righteousness.  Perhaps that is why we have so many rude people treating others disrespectfully simply because it is their freedom to do so.  That's not a good thing at all.

Edited by Bluefinger, 17 May 2013 - 12:04 PM.

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#177    J. K.

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 12:49 PM

View PostBluefinger, on 17 May 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

The kingdom of God is a kingdom that takes hold in the hearts of those with faith (the Church.)  The point of the kingdom of God is to practice and teach righteousness.


Bluefinger, if I may suggest, you'll find that vocabulary such as "kingdom of God", "righteousness", and "blessing" doesn't communicate very well to the world.  I've known Christians who don't fully understand those things, too.  When discussing such topics, make sure that the meaning of words is accessible to any who might read them.

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#178    Bluefinger

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 01:53 PM

View PostJ. K., on 17 May 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

[/size]

Bluefinger, if I may suggest, you'll find that vocabulary such as "kingdom of God", "righteousness", and "blessing" doesn't communicate very well to the world.  I've known Christians who don't fully understand those things, too.  When discussing such topics, make sure that the meaning of words is accessible to any who might read them.

Thanks J.k.

I did in earlier posts.  I would keep repeating the definitions but I'm using a phone, so I'm trying to make my words count.



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#179    Frank Merton

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:04 PM

View PostJ. K., on 17 May 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

[/size]

Bluefinger, if I may suggest, you'll find that vocabulary such as "kingdom of God", "righteousness", and "blessing" doesn't communicate very well to the world.  I've known Christians who don't fully understand those things, too.  When discussing such topics, make sure that the meaning of words is accessible to any who might read them.
I think the words are well understood by anyone who is literate in English and has a knowledge of history.  That they have subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle differences between Christian groups is true but even these differences are generally understood.


#180    J. K.

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:23 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 17 May 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

I think the words are well understood by anyone who is literate in English and has a knowledge of history.  That they have subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle differences between Christian groups is true but even these differences are generally understood.

You would probably find that the average American on the street would not know their meaning in a Christian context.  Not everybody has your level of literacy; you handle nuances and slang like a native English speaker.

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