Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Has Hungary not learned from History?


  • Please log in to reply
45 replies to this topic

#31    dekker87

dekker87

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,369 posts
  • Joined:08 Oct 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:england

Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:39 AM

calm down richard nixon....you mean well but slow down a little and look around....

it's very simple to demonise people as nazis....it doesn't mean they are nazis.

i think it was churchill or maybe huey long (i may be wrong) who said that the next facists will come under the guise of anti-fascism.....think about that...

look at who runs Unite Against Fascism in this country...look at their politics....look at Weymann Bennett the chair of UAF...he's a member of the Socialist Workers Party....look at them....look at their politics and history...

Quote

The Socialist Workers Party (SWP) is a far-left party in Britain. Founded as the Socialist Review Group by supporters of Tony Cliff in 1950, it became the International Socialists in 1962 and the SWP in 1977.[1] The party considers itself to be Trotskyist, although Cliff and his followers deviated from certain orthodox precepts, such as the defence of the USSR, instead asserting that the former Soviet Union, and its satellites, were "state capitalist".
Over the decades, the SWP has used a number of 'fronts', such as the Anti-Nazi League in the late 1970s and from 2001, the Stop the War Coalition. It also formed an alliance with George Galloway and Respect; this alignment's eventual dissolution in 2007 caused an internal crisis in the SWP, as did rape allegations against a leading member of the party which publicly emerged at the beginning of 2013

the nazis were National SOCIALISTS....they were seen as a product of the left....the left in the UK were supportive of them during the late 20's / early 30's.....

read Nick Cohens (a jewish journo) fantastic book 'what's left'

http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/0007229704

most of all richard nixon...don't kneejerk react to baseless allegations of nazism, fascism or anti-semitism....


#32    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:04 PM

View Postdekker87, on 10 May 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

calm down richard nixon....you mean well but slow down a little and look around....

it's very simple to demonise people as nazis....it doesn't mean they are nazis.

i think it was churchill or maybe huey long (i may be wrong) who said that the next facists will come under the guise of anti-fascism.....think about that...

look at who runs Unite Against Fascism in this country...look at their politics....look at Weymann Bennett the chair of UAF...he's a member of the Socialist Workers Party....look at them....look at their politics and history...

the nazis were National SOCIALISTS....they were seen as a product of the left....the left in the UK were supportive of them during the late 20's / early 30's.....

read Nick Cohens (a jewish journo) fantastic book 'what's left'

http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/0007229704

most of all richard nixon...don't kneejerk react to baseless allegations of nazism, fascism or anti-semitism....

Jingoism, xenophobia, genocide, racism and imperialism can be left, right or centre.

Hitler abolished class society, created a brotherhood, made adults attend parenting classes, modernised state health-care, nationalised a large part of the private sector, vastly increased the number of state employees, expanded the scouts+brownies and made it compulsary for all children, COMPLETE AND UTTER SOCIALIST!

The nazis were far-left nationalists. The name workers party is the give away for those who dont know any different!


#33    dekker87

dekker87

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,369 posts
  • Joined:08 Oct 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:england

Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:16 PM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 10 May 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Jingoism, xenophobia, genocide, racism and imperialism can be left, right or centre.

Hitler abolished class society, created a brotherhood, made adults attend parenting classes, modernised state health-care, nationalised a large part of the private sector, vastly increased the number of state employees, expanded the scouts+brownies and made it compulsary for all children, COMPLETE AND UTTER SOCIALIST!

The nazis were far-left nationalists. The name workers party is the give away for those who dont know any different!

most people don't really understand what left and right means politically speaking....

i prefer to think in terms of negative vs positive liberty...it kinda clarifies things and seperates the wheat from the chaff.


#34    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:36 PM

View Postdekker87, on 10 May 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

most people don't really understand what left and right means politically speaking....

i prefer to think in terms of negative vs positive liberty...it kinda clarifies things and seperates the wheat from the chaff.

far-left is a dictatorship and far-right is a true democracy


#35    dekker87

dekker87

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,369 posts
  • Joined:08 Oct 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:england

Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:39 PM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 10 May 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

far-left is a dictatorship and far-right is a true democracy

lol....i understand what you mean by that but that post is really gonna stir up a hornets nest!


#36    itsnotoutthere

itsnotoutthere

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,041 posts
  • Joined:03 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Royston Vasey

  • “Life is a whim of several billion cells to be you for a while”

Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:02 PM

View Postdekker87, on 10 May 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

most people don't really understand what left and right means politically speaking....

i prefer to think in terms of negative vs positive liberty...it kinda clarifies things and seperates the wheat from the chaff.

I always find it intriguing to observe that throughout history it is notable that whilst far right dictators have waged war against other nations (Hitler), left wing dictators have waged war against their own people (Stalin, Pohl pot, Maow). And even today it is also observable that right wing types appear more patriotic whereas left wing types seem much more cynical towards their country of origin.

Edited by itsnotoutthere, 10 May 2013 - 01:23 PM.

“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx

#37    Gravitorbox

Gravitorbox

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,558 posts
  • Joined:22 Oct 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:United States

Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:04 PM

Alright, I told myself I wouldn't get invested in a political debate here but damnit, here goes:

You guys are nitpicking over semantics and the definitions of words. By some definitions Fascism is also socialist if you define socialist at minimal as any form of organized labor, not as the internationalist movements typically associated with socialism. Fascism is based more on the social first and the economics second; for a Fascist economics is what works and is best for the people and nation as a whole (which to a Fascist is inseparable), not a "principle". This usually translates to a roughly centrist approach such as Corporatism, which is a form of Guild Socialism (no, it is not rule by big corporations like some conspiracy theorists like to claim it is). Some forms of Fascism, like Strasserist Nazism, are nearly communist as far as economics are concerned.

That said, in my experience Hungarians are more anti-semitic than most, but that is perhaps because it is more transparent to them the disproportionate amount of Jews behind the reigns of multiculturalism and telling Europeans to feel ashamed of their history. It is more accurate to say a disproportionately large percentage of the enemy is Jewish, as opposed to saying most/all Jews are the enemy.

I'm honestly of the belief that Europeans should not be ashamed of their heritage or the holocaust because it has nothing to do with them. Laws such as holocaust denial and whatnot are to benefit Jews and not Europeans - I am not saying this because I think Jews are "inferior", but you could replace the scenario with any other non-European group and my views would be the same. It has nothing to do with us so we shouldn't impose such laws on ourselves. Israel should be concerned with Jewish interests, and Europeans should be concerned with European interests. There is no "absolute moral value" or narrative, just whatever is in the interest of a nationality.

"Everything we did was criticized. For about thirty years we lived with the world against us, accusing us of things we didn't do!"

    - Ian Douglas Smith

#38    dekker87

dekker87

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,369 posts
  • Joined:08 Oct 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:england

Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:23 PM

View PostGravitorbox, on 10 May 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

Alright, I told myself I wouldn't get invested in a political debate here but damnit, here goes:

You guys are nitpicking over semantics and the definitions of words. By some definitions Fascism is also socialist if you define socialist at minimal as any form of organized labor, not as the internationalist movements typically associated with socialism. Fascism is based more on the social first and the economics second; for a Fascist economics is what works and is best for the people and nation as a whole (which to a Fascist is inseparable), not a "principle". This usually translates to a roughly centrist approach such as Corporatism, which is a form of Guild Socialism (no, it is not rule by big corporations like some conspiracy theorists like to claim it is). Some forms of Fascism, like Strasserist Nazism, are nearly communist as far as economics are concerned.

That said, in my experience Hungarians are more anti-semitic than most, but that is perhaps because it is more transparent to them the disproportionate amount of Jews behind the reigns of multiculturalism and telling Europeans to feel ashamed of their history. It is more accurate to say a disproportionately large percentage of the enemy is Jewish, as opposed to saying most/all Jews are the enemy.

I'm honestly of the belief that Europeans should not be ashamed of their heritage or the holocaust because it has nothing to do with them. Laws such as holocaust denial and whatnot are to benefit Jews and not Europeans - I am not saying this because I think Jews are "inferior", but you could replace the scenario with any other non-European group and my views would be the same. It has nothing to do with us so we shouldn't impose such laws on ourselves. Israel should be concerned with Jewish interests, and Europeans should be concerned with European interests. There is no "absolute moral value" or narrative, just whatever is in the interest of a nationality.

ermmm....all well and good....but judaism is a religion...someone can be just as european as anyone else and still be jewish....certainly in the context you're talking here the jews in question are ashkenazim and so of eastern european extraction in any case...as are most of the establishment in Israel (as opposed to sephardic jews)....to term 'jews' as a 'non-european group' is incorrect.

also 'european' is as generalised as 'african' or using the term 'american' to refer to a brazilian or an argentinian....

your political points are well stated...but your points regarding anti-semitism are deeply flawed...and it isn't jews telling 'europeans' to be ashamed of their heritage...it's generally middle class white academics.


#39    dekker87

dekker87

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,369 posts
  • Joined:08 Oct 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:england

Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:25 PM

View Postitsnotoutthere, on 10 May 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

I always find it intriguing to observe that throughout history it is notable that whilst far right dictators have waged war against other nations (Hitler), left wing dictators have waged war against their own people (Stalin, Pohl pot, Maow). And even today it is also observable that right wing types appear more patriotic whereas left wing types seem much more cynical towards their country of origin.

i agree with the general point you're making but hitler waged war against his own people just as much as the others you reference.

as did pinochet for example...who is termed a right winger.


#40    Gravitorbox

Gravitorbox

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,558 posts
  • Joined:22 Oct 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:United States

Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:39 PM

View Postdekker87, on 10 May 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

ermmm....all well and good....but judaism is a religion...someone can be just as european as anyone else and still be jewish....certainly in the context you're talking here the jews in question are ashkenazim and so of eastern european extraction in any case...as are most of the establishment in Israel (as opposed to sephardic jews)....to term 'jews' as a 'non-european group' is incorrect.
Jews have an identity ethnically as well. Enough that a ton of them decided to go form Israel and identify as something other than European based on survival. There was an organic aspect to it. It is not strictly a religion. I admit however that the definition of "Jew" is not totally consistent, it probably should just mean the religion.

View Postdekker87, on 10 May 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

also 'european' is as generalised as 'african' or using the term 'american' to refer to a brazilian or an argentinian....
I mean European culturally. My definition of European would also include Americans, Canadians, a percentage of South Americans of which Argentinians make up the bulk, Afrikaners, Rhodesians, Australians, and New Zealanders.

View Postdekker87, on 10 May 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

it isn't jews telling 'europeans' to be ashamed of their heritage...it's generally middle class white academics.
A lot of them are indeed traitors but a disproportionate amount comes from a Jewish background. In fact there are a few that are openly Zionist - which implies it is not the principle of Fascism or Nationalism they oppose, but that they are serving their own interests by opposing movements which they fear may target them. In a way it is a vicious cycle. They oppose European nationalist groups out of fear of Nazism, and in opposing them they make themselves the targets by necessity. The British Union of Fascists had this problem - they never openly attacked Jews, at least initially but the Jews went out of their way to attack them from the get go. In Oswald Mosley's autobiography "My Life" he mentions how dumbfounded he was at their nearly unanimous opposition to his movement. They pretty much made any nationalist movement have to target them by necessity.

The irony is it shows an inherent neuroticism because most far left movements these Jews support tend to be anti-Zionist. I don't think it is a conspiracy - I think it honestly has something to do with their mental states. I think Jews, Ashkenazim at least, are more prone to histrionic and neurotic traits in general whilst simultaneously having higher IQs. It would make sense due to the indirect selective breeding they went through during the middle ages - they've bred in some particular genetics. Same reason they are more prone to certain genetic disorders.

"Everything we did was criticized. For about thirty years we lived with the world against us, accusing us of things we didn't do!"

    - Ian Douglas Smith

#41    dekker87

dekker87

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,369 posts
  • Joined:08 Oct 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:england

Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:51 PM

View PostGravitorbox, on 10 May 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

Jews have an identity ethnically as well. Enough that a ton of them decided to go form Israel and identify as something other than European based on survival. There was an organic aspect to it. It is not strictly a religion. I admit however that the definition of "Jew" is not totally consistent, it probably should just mean the religion.


I mean European culturally. My definition of European would also include Americans, Canadians, a percentage of South Americans of which Argentinians make up the bulk, Afrikaners, Rhodesians, Australians, and New Zealanders.


A lot of them are indeed traitors but a disproportionate amount comes from a Jewish background. In fact there are a few that are openly Zionist - which implies it is not the principle of Fascism or Nationalism they oppose, but that they are serving their own interests by opposing movements which they fear may target them. In a way it is a vicious cycle. They oppose European nationalist groups out of fear of Nazism, and in opposing them they make themselves the targets by necessity. The British Union of Fascists had this problem - they never openly attacked Jews, at least initially but the Jews went out of their way to attack them from the get go. In Oswald Mosley's autobiography "My Life" he mentions how dumbfounded he was at their nearly unanimous opposition to his movement. They pretty much made any nationalist movement have to target them by necessity.

The irony is it shows an inherent neuroticism because most far left movements these Jews support tend to be anti-Zionist. I don't think it is a conspiracy - I think it honestly has something to do with their mental states. I think Jews, Ashkenazim at least, are more prone to histrionic and neurotic traits in general whilst simultaneously having higher IQs. It would make sense due to the indirect selective breeding they went through during the middle ages - they've bred in some particular genetics. Same reason they are more prone to certain genetic disorders.

i think you're on some very dodgy ground with some of those comments but to address only one:

Quote

I mean European culturally

ashkenazim by their very nature and existence are intrinsically culturally european!!! the rituals and religious practices are not the same as those of middle eastern jews....the hats and the ringlets etc is a european thing...not a middle eastern one!

there is a way of analysing Israel...which i tend to agree with to an extent...as the last of the european colonies....and if you look at the birth of zionism and how it was formulated....in the context of political thought elsewhere in europe at the same time...then it is very much a european concept. ironic that the same genesis of thought that led to zionism also led to nazism....they clashed...one was destroyed....and in th actions and the death of one the other became almost inviolate and gained the support of the majority of jewish people in a way it had not had prior to the actions of the nazis.


#42    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:12 PM

View Postitsnotoutthere, on 10 May 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

I always find it intriguing to observe that throughout history it is notable that whilst far right dictators have waged war against other nations (Hitler), left wing dictators have waged war against their own people (Stalin, Pohl pot, Maow). And even today it is also observable that right wing types appear more patriotic whereas left wing types seem much more cynical towards their country of origin.

far-right = true democracy
right = republic
centre = balance
left = oligarchy
far-left = dictatorship or absolute rule

'Right' is not the same as nationalist, racist, xenophobic or imperialistic so stop labelling nationalist governments as being on the right. Hitler and Stalin were both far-left and the difference between the two is very small.

The 'right' appears more patriotic simply because they dont force their opinions onto people they listen and represent. That means instead of labelling you a bigot and locking you up they give the people the anti-immigrant policies they want (assuming that applies for the majority).

The only far-right governments that have existed to date were the leaders of ancient Greece. They operated a true democracy where every citizen got to be president for just one day.

Edited by Giant Killer B, 10 May 2013 - 06:13 PM.


#43    Gravitorbox

Gravitorbox

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,558 posts
  • Joined:22 Oct 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:United States

Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:42 PM

View Postdekker87, on 10 May 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

ashkenazim by their very nature and existence are intrinsically culturally european!!! the rituals and religious practices are not the same as those of middle eastern jews....the hats and the ringlets etc is a european thing...not a middle eastern one!
I think they're a mix at best. They've always isolated themselves from the rest of the society at least in practice. Regardless they chose to adopt another identity which makes their interests separate from ours.

View Postdekker87, on 10 May 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

there is a way of analysing Israel...which i tend to agree with to an extent...as the last of the european colonies....and if you look at the birth of zionism and how it was formulated....in the context of political thought elsewhere in europe at the same time...then it is very much a european concept. ironic that the same genesis of thought that led to zionism also led to nazism....they clashed...one was destroyed....and in th actions and the death of one the other became almost inviolate and gained the support of the majority of jewish people in a way it had not had prior to the actions of the nazis.
I have very mixed views on Israel but in general I find both sides of the argument idiotic. The neo-cons only support Israel to spread democracy which I do not agree with, and the anti-Israeli people on our side of the fence seem to do it "in principle" to oppose Jews - the reality is, Jews are not one group and most Israelis are good nationalists and many in my experience are potential allies at least on an existential level. Many of them are appalled by cultural marxism and a rather large percentage are sympathetic to the Afrikaners' plight, which is more than can be said for most people.

View PostGiant Killer B, on 10 May 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

far-right = true democracy
right = republic
centre = balance
left = oligarchy
far-left = dictatorship or absolute rule
Okay so this is profoundly autistic and this scale is incredibly arbitrary.

Though, we have to acknowledge that the modern definitions of "right" and "left" are rarely consistent. A lot of scales seem to gauge right and left based on how capitalist or socialist you are - but by that logic the common use of the term "far right" is incorrect, since that would make an Ayn Rand following Objectivist "far right" and a Neo-Nazi or a Fascist around center.

Personally I think right and left should be defined by whether you think inequality is desirable or undesirable. In that sense a Fascist is far-right and both Communists and Capitalists are far-left. All the socialists here are going to say it is insanity for me to put capitalism on the far-left on this scale, but if you think about it Austrian economists "in theory" think it will be equal - in practice this never happens. Same could be said for Communists, who advocate equality but usually end up with pseudo-Fascism. The USSR under Stalinism is a prime example. So the same logic that would put Communists on the left puts Capitalists there as well. There is also the fact that economically minded people generally do not see social order as important; they wish individuals to be interchangeable cogs in the machine in order to maximize profit. That is why many neo-liberal capitalists nowadays support open borders and even support leftist identity politics - they can make a profit off of it. In practice, they go hand in hand. Hell, the entire modern art movement would not exist if it was not an industry - no one likes that crap except for intellectuals ******* over it and university students. The irony is that the USSR considered it a form of "capitalist degeneracy" and banned it, which is rather accurate from a certain perspective.

View PostGiant Killer B, on 10 May 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

'Right' is not the same as nationalist, racist, xenophobic or imperialistic so stop labelling nationalist governments as being on the right. Hitler and Stalin were both far-left and the difference between the two is very small.
If you are not a nationalist then what do you care about? What do you define "nationalist" as? What do you define "racist" as? Why are you accepting the left-wing narrative? You are buying into their hands and being defensive and apologetic.

By accepting their "racism" narrative what you are doing is the equivalent of an atheist arguing with a Christian fundamentalist whilst accepting the existence of Satan and taking his side. You are setting yourself up to lose because you are accepting their version of reality.

View PostGiant Killer B, on 10 May 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

The only far-right governments that have existed to date were the leaders of ancient Greece. They operated a true democracy where every citizen got to be president for just one day.
What do you define as "right"?

"Everything we did was criticized. For about thirty years we lived with the world against us, accusing us of things we didn't do!"

    - Ian Douglas Smith

#44    Mr Right Wing

Mr Right Wing

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,924 posts
  • Joined:16 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:57 PM

View PostGravitorbox, on 10 May 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

Okay so this is profoundly autistic and this scale is incredibly arbitrary.

Nazis kill off the inferior to make everyone perfect (Hitler).
Communists kill off the superior to make everyone perfect (Pol-Pot).

Both forms of government lead to a society of 'equals' and are therefore more similar than you'd like to admin (both far-left).


#45    dekker87

dekker87

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,369 posts
  • Joined:08 Oct 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:england

Posted 14 May 2013 - 08:29 AM

Quote

I think they're a mix at best. They've always isolated themselves from the rest of the society at least in practice. Regardless they chose to adopt another identity which makes their interests separate from ours.

no disrespect but you're an american...i'm an englishman....our interests are seperate from each other...as (i assume) white men we have a certain degree of overlap but in your psychology and your national interests you are closer to an american with black skin than a white englishman...other than great britain i have very little respect for most european countries and their history in any case...which leads me to my next point:

Quote

They've always isolated themselves from the rest of the society at least in practice. Regardless they chose to adopt another identity which makes their interests separate from ours.

all true to an extent....but that doesn't make them less european....from the british isles the whole of europe seems a little odd and riven by weird factions anyway so to me they are just another one to throw into the mix...

Quote

Jews are not one group and most Israelis are good nationalists and many in my experience are potential allies at least on an existential level

absolutely agree with this.

irony:

the 'ethnic' group nearly slaughtered by an unfettered rampant deranged form of (socialist) nationalism run wild is now, because of that very slaughter, the one group that promotes it's own national interests above all others and escapes the various and unfounded charges of racism levelled at other nationalist groups around the globe.

almost makes me believe they're the 'chosen people'...lol.

you have some interesting thoughts gravitorbox...i note your quote from Ian Smith....i recently worked with a black zimbabwean fella who was over here because his family were being persecuted by Zanu-PF....he was schoolmates with morgan tsvangiri from the MDC and as such had had members of his family imprisoned and all sorts....his opinion of smith's government was not what the media would have you believe...and this was from a man whose family had been long active in the 'liberation' struggle though thru non-violent methods...





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users