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AA artifacts - evidence or speculation ?

ancient aliens proof evidence statues petroglyphs drawings

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#76    Irna

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 04:44 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 05 May 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

I question, for example, one image from your OP: the "cave drawing" supposedly from France and dating to 15,000 to 17,000 years ago. As it happens I've invested a significant amount of time over the past month or so researching this very subject for a large new exhibit on Lascaux at our museum, and my studies have caused me to look into many of the 340 painted caves in southwest France and northeast Spain. This subject of prehistoric Europe is pretty new to me, I admit, but I would ask you exactly in which cave this image is supposed to appear? It doesn't even resemble the cave art of Magdalenian France. What does the wider cave wall show? What other images and symbols are present?. What is your source?

Hi kmt_sesh,
that image is supposed to come from Pech Merle. In fact, it's a very bad rendition of the drawing of "L'homme blessé" (the wounded man) in Pech Merle. Here is what the drawing actually looks like:
Posted Image

See also https://www.nespos.o...pageId=50168451 and http://www.hominides...-pech-merle.php (in French)


#77    Abramelin

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 05:03 PM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 05 May 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

and i guess, you flew over them nazca lines too, havent you Abe??

Yes I did. And the pilot was an Italian who flew tourists around for some 20 years (1991). The guy loved a prank, and because I was sitting next to him on the co-pilot seat, I ask/whispered to him if it was ok for him if I pretended to fly the plane. So when I said "now we dive to the left, wheeeee!!", I would turn my disabled steering wheel to the left and then he would dive to the left while my friends thought "OH GOD, R. is flying the plane!!"

But what I didn't expect is that they really started panicking, lol, and I had to admit it was only a joke. When we landed I had to run, hahaha !

Oh, and btw: some of these glyphs can be watched from nearby mountains.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 05 May 2013 - 05:07 PM.


#78    cormac mac airt

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 05:08 PM

View PostIrna, on 05 May 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Hi kmt_sesh,
that image is supposed to come from Pech Merle. In fact, it's a very bad rendition of the drawing of "L'homme blessé" (the wounded man) in Pech Merle. Here is what the drawing actually looks like:
Posted Image

See also https://www.nespos.o...pageId=50168451 and http://www.hominides...-pech-merle.php (in French)

Thanks Irna for the picture. I knew it was familiar but couldn't remember that it was called "the wounded man". I think a 'very bad rendition' is quite the understatement. So we have two pictures that have been speculated as something more than they are, with the actual knowledge of what they are having been disregarded, and one which isn't even accurate. And alot of the "all opinions are equal" mentality. Am finding it increasingly difficult to take this thread seriously.

cormac

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#79    Abramelin

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 05:09 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 05 May 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

If it amuses a bored sock puppet to stir a mess for whatever their purpose is. I'm surprised people have taken this thread seriously......

Well, some people register as a new member, and don't know about the search engine/tool (what's the name??) of this site or how to use it.


#80    jaylemurph

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:10 PM

View PostSheep Smart, on 05 May 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:

what? when did i say they "really" are aliens, in case you missed it. which you clearly DID, i stated uner then 2nd post i believe saying, "IM NOT SAYING THESE ARE ALIENS...THEY APPEAR TO BE".

Esse est percipi. "Appears" and "Seems" are weasel words, unless you throw in to whom things appear or seem. None of those paintings seem or appear to be aliens to me (at the very least), so saying they "appear to be" is not a universal statement you can get away with saying. If you had said, "they appear to be TO ME" it would have been a whole different matter. Everything I said earlier would still apply, but you wouldn't be foisting your opinions on other people -- including me -- willy-nilly.

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#81    jaylemurph

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:27 PM

View PostExeter, on 05 May 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

Not to stir up **** here (more that's been already) but seriously who can claim to truly understand what the ancient people really thought? Even today with so much available communication world wide there's more than a few cultural blocks. What I mean by that is that even if you go live abroad with a different culture and learn everything you can about them you still will never have their mind set.

The ancients made art and wrote a lot about their every day lives. Who's to say that what we interpret as just their beliefs and myths weren't actual descriptions of what really went down?

Time machine or it didn't happen. lol

I encourage you to go back and read my post. You seem to understand that there are different convention in different societies; you just seem to not want to apply that to art and understanding it. The end of of what you suggest -- we can't ever really understand other cultures -- seems to suggest there's no universality in human culture, which is obviously wrong. We wouldn't be able to ever talk to any other culture if that were true, and we obviously can talk to other ones.

Also, you do understand that all fiction is not real, right (I assume you do, and are just leaving out for convenience of your argument.)? If we go with your idea, "Who's to say that what we interpret as just their beliefs and myths weren't actual descriptions of what really went down?" essentially locks you into a position where every fictional idea can be real, with no standard to figure out what is real and what just might be real, which is obviously not a tenable, rational position.

Understanding artistical and social conventions is exactly that key to allow us to know what is literally real and what is fictional. And the truth is that it takes a great deal of study and effort to be able to intelligently talk about them. The ignorance you (or anyone else) have about conventions or cultures should never be confused for a universal condition.

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"... amongst the most obstinate of our opinions may be classed those which derive from discussions in which we affect to search for the truth, while in reality we are only fortifying prejudice."     -- James Fenimore Cooper, The Pathfinder

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#82    Harte

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:00 PM

View PostSheep Smart, on 05 May 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

I dont dismiss them, I just dont care to acknowledge them because for one theories of ancient history come a dime a dozen. Accepted theories are not necessarily proven.
Toward a more effective vocabulary, you should understand that "proof" in your immediate world means something different from "proof" in the academic world.

Theories cannot be "proven," nor are they meant to be.

In the hard sciences, theories are merely models that have outcomes that match observations to an agreed-upon level of accuracy.  For example, nobody really knows what an atom "looks like."

In Archaeology, it's far worse.  Anyone with a few seconds to spend thinking on the subject will certainly realize that it is literally impossible to know every single detail of the past - especially antiquity.

Hence, the idea that "theories of ancient history come a dime a dozen" and that "Accepted theories are not necessarily proven" are meaningless in any academic sense.  To me, these "theories" you mention that are a dime a dozen are primarily wild and unevidenced speculation, whereas what you are calling accepted theories are theories in the academic sense; they are evidenced, they've made predictions that were later borne out, and they can be disproven.

But not proven.

The three characteristics I bolded are the hallmarks you should look for when evaluating what you are calling theories.  The ones that have these hallmarks are believable.  The others are scams to sell books or whatever.

View PostSheep Smart, on 05 May 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Like exeter said, we seem to think we know everything about people and thier beliefs, myths, and everything theyve seen thousands of years ago.

You should no longer labor under the false belief that Historians, Anthropologists, Archaeologists, or any other types of scientists think they know even ten percent of the information applicable to any bygone ancient culture.

However, that ten percent is far more than you or I care to delve into.  We have other occupations.

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#83    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:10 PM

ohh look ... it's "aliens in religious artwork" time. Marvellous.
Beams of light from the sky (aka "the heavens") touching the ground/people's heads? Obviously it's alien communion with man. Or God sending an email. One of the two.
Odd looking clouds? Well UFOS! Or one of the Host of Heaven as described in Ezekiel and elsewhere.
The "Host of Heaven"? MORE UFOS and some aliens too!! Or the fact that God isn't boring and only creates stuff like man does.
Flying carpets? UFOs. Or magic.
Dragons? UFOs. Or someone found some dinosaur bones and came up with an explanation for them.
Battle of  Nuremberg? Okay I'll give you that one ;)

Things that fly and they shouldn't (ie - not birds) in ancient art is not a sign of aliens popping around for tea, but a sign of Divinity thumbing it's nose (or noses if it's a Hindu divinity) at the laws of physics. What's the quickest and easiest way of showing in one picture that what's being depicted is "supernormal"? Have it fly when it shouldn't be able to.


#84    kmt_sesh

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:30 PM

View PostSheep Smart, on 05 May 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

kmt,
FIRST OFF ,I didnt drag your name in here, im not sure why that dude did. Some people just have an answer for everything i guess

I did not mean to sound combative in my repsonse this. I only wished to clarify that I was not the person who made this comment. My apologies for not phrasing it better. I don't know if you're familiar with me, but few things irritate me more than being misrepresented. I don't see that you were guilty of this and I don't believe you are, but I wanted to nip it in the bud, as it were.

Quote

.. Infact i replied saying it wasnt you so calm the freak down. (Who said they could build the giza) hahaha

You're best off not telling Moderators to calm down. No offense was intended, although from the tenor of the rest of my post—which was somewhat confrontational, I agree—I can see how you took it that way. That said, I am a rather calm person and possess quite a bit of tolerance, as I think my acquaintances on UM will agree. I am much more interested in a substantive response to my posts, to wit...

Quote

Secondly im not here to "prove" anything. So there goes your argument.

Not quite. You have made numerous statements and have been repeatedly challenged. In my own previous post, I issued a number of specific questions and requests for clarification, and I can't help but notice you did not address a single one of them. I cannot make you answer my questions or the questions others ask of you, but it's certainly in your best interest to do so if you're posting in our forum.

Quote

I sure hope youre not refering to me when you say "blablabla-bla bla blah ..push the conspiracy ", because in my initial few posts I said its all speculative coincidence regardless of where i stan. Furthermore I posted the following in the stat bar:


It's entirely possible I misunderstood you with this one. In Post 8 you stated "i cant believe youd go by roman records (which outside the vatican little are to be found). you know how much the vatican backs AA.." In rereading this statement, I confess I don't understand what you were saying. Originally I had thought you were intimating that the Vatican was controlling ancient records, which I now see might not have been the intent of your statement. Still, in defense of my own statement, I don't think you're aware of how widespread Roman records were in the ancient world, and how widespread they are today in universities and museums around the world.

I'm also not sure of the meaning of your statement about "how much the Vatican backs AA." For a point of clarification, the Vatican has no official opinion on "ancient aliens" at all. What the Vatican officially has acknowledged is the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe. There is a clear distinction.

Quote

She of two men say; "It wasnt Ancient Aliens, it was humans prior to mutating dumbward."

I'm not sure what this means, either.


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#85    kmt_sesh

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:43 PM

View PostExeter, on 05 May 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

Not to stir up **** here (more that's been already) but seriously who can claim to truly understand what the ancient people really thought? Even today with so much available communication world wide there's more than a few cultural blocks. What I mean by that is that even if you go live abroad with a different culture and learn everything you can about them you still will never have their mind set.

The ancients made art and wrote a lot about their every day lives. Who's to say that what we interpret as just their beliefs and myths weren't actual descriptions of what really went down?

Time machine or it didn't happen. lol

This is a perfectly valid point and is worth considering. To a large extent, however, perhaps you're not aware of the methodology of historical research that has allowed us to enter the ancient mind and understand what ancient man produced—and how he himself regarded and understood what he produced. This is of course especially true with civilizations which possessed written scripts that have been deciphered, because we can obviously then read what they themselves said about their beliefs and traditions. This would include Sumer, Egypt, Akkad, Babylon, Israel, Assyria, Persia, Hatti, Greece, and Rome. This would largely not include Minoa, Etrusca, and Meroë, whose scripts have not been deciphered.

What's most important in the pursuit of truly understanding an ancient civilization is immediately divorcing from one's mind the modern attitudes and sensibilities that frame one's modern culture. The student has to approach an ancient civilization with the mindset of a citizen of that ancient civilization, in so far as that is possible.

Do we or will we ever fully understand an ancient civilization? No, of course not. It's impossible. Too much time and material has been lost to us, but that's a far cry from saying we can't know them.

And of course the biggest of all mistakes is to assume we can't know anything about an ancient civilization and therefore must ascribe everything to aliens. I'm not saying this is your position on the matter, Exeter, but I wish only to make a general point as to the overall theme of this particular thread. Giving aliens all the credit is in actuality a form of intellectual sloth and a copout. It's a waste of time. And to add another jab at the TV show I so abhor, this is another reason Ancient Aliens is such a disgraceful if not harmful waste of time.

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#86    kmt_sesh

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:59 PM

View PostIrna, on 05 May 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Hi kmt_sesh,
that image is supposed to come from Pech Merle. In fact, it's a very bad rendition of the drawing of "L'homme blessé" (the wounded man) in Pech Merle. Here is what the drawing actually looks like:
Posted Image

See also https://www.nespos.o...pageId=50168451 and http://www.hominides...-pech-merle.php (in French)

Thanks for the assist, Irna. You're right on the money. Good work. Pech Merle is not one of the caves with which I'm yet well acquainted, so I will have to include it in my continuing studies. I used your links and looked at other sites to get a better understanding of the overall image.

LOL Like cormac said, "very bad" is a monumental understatement. Sheep Smart did not clarify the source where he got the image, but I wouldn't be surprised if it can be traced back to one of von Däniken's misrepresentations.

An interesting image. The "wounded man" looks much like many of the animals in other caves that were depicted with these lines piercing them, and I rather doubt it was aliens assaulting them.

Sheesh.

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#87    Daughter of the Nine Moons

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:14 AM

View PostSheep Smart, on 05 May 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

for the genius who made the remark about "visual aid" heres some more since the thread is based on visual images.


some 13-15th century paintings with "natural occurances"  (that just so happen to look like ufos) in the background.
Whats the latest theory on these?

*snip - too long quote*

Here is an interesting article for you to read The Art of Imagining UFO's

iheartsugarbear

#88    third_eye

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 01:27 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 05 May 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:


~snip

An interesting image. The "wounded man" looks much like many of the animals in other caves that were depicted with these lines piercing them, and I rather doubt it was aliens assaulting them.

Sheesh.

The "wounded man" is a common theme in various sites in different continents and spans across the ages, its also a term used by the Paleo-researchers to denote its similarities boss.

Nobody says its aliens boss .... don't be influenced by the jaded anti fringe league .... :)

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#89    kmt_sesh

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 01:41 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 06 May 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

The "wounded man" is a common theme in various sites in different continents and spans across the ages, its also a term used by the Paleo-researchers to denote its similarities boss.

Nobody says its aliens boss .... don't be influenced by the jaded anti fringe league .... :)

Hey, I am one of the founding members of the Jaded Anti-Fringe League (JAFL). We are jaded because of the fringe. :tu:

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#90    Sheep Smart

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 01:47 AM

IN That case , proof then constitutes, Not only a valid "academically accepted theory" but better consist of some fairly considerable evidence. With that I say, if everyone were to agree with mainstream , in this case crap based on Egyptian tour dollars, we would be content with not caring.
1, Can anyone explain what the interior is for ? NO
2, when its duplicated. PHYSICALLY at even half the scale ill possibly reconsider.

Other life in the universe?, you dare to imply there are entities possibly far greater than us almighty humans, creators of canned ham and reality tv. Nonsense. Absurd.

   The reality that stupidy exists in abundance doesnt bother me. Its the fact that theres still no cure.




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