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AA artifacts - evidence or speculation ?

ancient aliens proof evidence statues petroglyphs drawings

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#91    third_eye

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 01:48 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 06 May 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

Hey, I am one of the founding members of the Jaded Anti-Fringe League (JAFL). We are jaded because of the fringe. :tu:

Aww c'mon boss ... you the honorary Life time Magus of the Anti Fringe League .... leave the jaded symptoms to the link sourcing foot soldiers .... :sk

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' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
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#92    kmt_sesh

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:00 AM

View PostSheep Smart, on 06 May 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

IN That case , proof then constitutes, Not only a valid "academically accepted theory" but better consist of some fairly considerable evidence. With that I say, if everyone were to agree with mainstream , in this case crap based on Egyptian tour dollars, we would be content with not caring.
1, Can anyone explain what the interior is for ? NO
2, when its duplicated. PHYSICALLY at even half the scale ill possibly reconsider.

LOL You really are in anti-science mode (both here and in the pyramid discussion).  Yes, right, the field of Egyptology is based on tourism revenue. Egyptian tour dollars fund research for the scores of institutes, museums, and universities involved in Egyptological research around the world?

What is the basis for your hate of research methodology? It's entirely your choice to favor the fringe approach, but you should at least try to understand how history is studied by professional scholars before summarily dismissing it.

The interior of what?

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#93    cormac mac airt

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:04 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 06 May 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

LOL You really are in anti-science mode (both here and in the pyramid discussion).  Yes, right, the field of Egyptology is based on tourism revenue. Egyptian tour dollars fund research for the scores of institutes, museums, and universities involved in Egyptological research around the world?

What is the basis for your hate of research methodology? It's entirely your choice to favor the fringe approach, but you should at least try to understand how history is studied by professional scholars before summarily dismissing it.

The interior of what?

The interior of the pyramids, particularly the GP apparently.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#94    Exeter

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:12 AM

Hi Oniomancer

View PostOniomancer, on 05 May 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

And the OP in citing from  von Däniken et al is singling out examples which superficially resemble our conceptions of modern space suits, ect. That's not far removed from cherry picking. No, wait, that's the exact definition of cherry picking. L OTOH Makes a valid comparison.  If the thesis is that these were artistically intended to represent real things within these cultures,  then an examination of what else these cultures produced artistically in context would be in order, which is nowhere near a strawman. Also, when one is dealing from the start with the fantastic, how does one determine what falls within the limits of "extreme"?

Funny isn't it how that required doubt always seems to be so highly specific in it's directionality.

But that's my point. We are looking at those ancient cultures with a biased modern mind set. And as far as cherry picking goes, isn't that what cynics (I'm not saying you) do by picking easily explainable examples and sweeping anything that can't be readily explained under the carpet with them?

It really doesn't matter if what they depicted were aliens from space or an advanced human culture that we've yet to discover. It seems like they're applying the boy who cried wolf excuse when in fact no one can really know for sure what they saw or knew.

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#95    Exeter

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:13 AM

View Postjaylemurph, on 05 May 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

I encourage you to go back and read my post. You seem to understand that there are different convention in different societies; you just seem to not want to apply that to art and understanding it. The end of of what you suggest -- we can't ever really understand other cultures -- seems to suggest there's no universality in human culture, which is obviously wrong. We wouldn't be able to ever talk to any other culture if that were true, and we obviously can talk to other ones.

Also, you do understand that all fiction is not real, right (I assume you do, and are just leaving out for convenience of your argument.)? If we go with your idea, "Who's to say that what we interpret as just their beliefs and myths weren't actual descriptions of what really went down?" essentially locks you into a position where every fictional idea can be real, with no standard to figure out what is real and what just might be real, which is obviously not a tenable, rational position.

Understanding artistical and social conventions is exactly that key to allow us to know what is literally real and what is fictional. And the truth is that it takes a great deal of study and effort to be able to intelligently talk about them. The ignorance you (or anyone else) have about conventions or cultures should never be confused for a universal condition.

--Jaylemurph

Hi jaylemurph.

I didn't mean to imply that we cannot understand and appreciate the artistic works of foreign cultures. And I understand that there's a difference between fiction and factual accounts. I was only suggesting that something we in our modern way of interpreting things may not be what the ancients may have actually experienced. I believe that's what is meant by having an open mind.

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UFOs = weather balloons of the Gods.

#96    Exeter

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:15 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 05 May 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

This is a perfectly valid point and is worth considering. To a large extent, however, perhaps you're not aware of the methodology of historical research that has allowed us to enter the ancient mind and understand what ancient man produced—and how he himself regarded and understood what he produced. This is of course especially true with civilizations which possessed written scripts that have been deciphered, because we can obviously then read what they themselves said about their beliefs and traditions. This would include Sumer, Egypt, Akkad, Babylon, Israel, Assyria, Persia, Hatti, Greece, and Rome. This would largely not include Minoa, Etrusca, and Meroë, whose scripts have not been deciphered.

What's most important in the pursuit of truly understanding an ancient civilization is immediately divorcing from one's mind the modern attitudes and sensibilities that frame one's modern culture. The student has to approach an ancient civilization with the mindset of a citizen of that ancient civilization, in so far as that is possible.

Do we or will we ever fully understand an ancient civilization? No, of course not. It's impossible. Too much time and material has been lost to us, but that's a far cry from saying we can't know them.

And of course the biggest of all mistakes is to assume we can't know anything about an ancient civilization and therefore must ascribe everything to aliens. I'm not saying this is your position on the matter, Exeter, but I wish only to make a general point as to the overall theme of this particular thread. Giving aliens all the credit is in actuality a form of intellectual sloth and a copout. It's a waste of time. And to add another jab at the TV show I so abhor, this is another reason Ancient Aliens is such a disgraceful if not harmful waste of time.

Hi kmt_sesh

I'm in no way claiming that I know all the answers or even if what is depicted by the OP's pictures has to do with aliens. There's alot of people these days claiming to have had experiences with god-knows-what and the best we can do is apply common sense and scientific evidence to try to explain it. All I suggest is that there may be just a bit more to what we have come to believe what the people from the past have left for us. It might just be nothing more than religious artifacts. But there's always a chance that something they depicted in their art was something that they actually had contact with.

Donna

UFOs = weather balloons of the Gods.

#97    Sheep Smart

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:16 AM

I dont hate research ( for who asked above). I simply disagree with conventional theories that are answered halfass. Because thats exactly what they are as of yet.

nor am i content with the conclusions many have made.

emphasis on many.

you can paste  as many links up as you wish. fact is i may not agree. probably a couple million others as well.

Other life in the universe?, you dare to imply there are entities possibly far greater than us almighty humans, creators of canned ham and reality tv. Nonsense. Absurd.

   The reality that stupidy exists in abundance doesnt bother me. Its the fact that theres still no cure.

#98    cormac mac airt

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:26 AM

View PostSheep Smart, on 06 May 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

I dont hate research ( for who asked above). I simply disagree with conventional theories that are answered halfass. Because thats exactly what they are as of yet.

nor am i content with the conclusions many have made.

emphasis on many.

you can paste  as many links up as you wish. fact is i may not agree. probably a couple million others as well.

Kind of like your speculation of the Pacal Sarcophagus lid, Abydos "machines" and an incorrect depiction of the "wounded man" you posted earlier? The first two of which are known and the last of which you evidently didn't even check for accuracy. Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#99    kmt_sesh

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:32 AM

View PostSheep Smart, on 06 May 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

I dont hate research ( for who asked above). I simply disagree with conventional theories that are answered halfass. Because thats exactly what they are as of yet.

nor am i content with the conclusions many have made.

emphasis on many.

you can paste  as many links up as you wish. fact is i may not agree. probably a couple million others as well.

But that is my very point. You're not expressing anything I or others could work with or discuss to any useful degree. You use limited ad hominem terms like "half ass" but do not elaborate. You're dismissing conventional, professional historical research without addressing it or dealing with it. That doesn't wash. I understand that you don't agree with professional methodology, but that's hardly the same as dealing with it in a way that carries your point forward.

So, I would suggest this, at least for a start: pick one, specific example of an academic conclusion on some aspect of historical research with which you disagree. Using more than a generic ad hominem, elaborate on why you disagree with it. That way, we all can at least engage in some degree of productive debate.

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#100    jaylemurph

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:36 AM

View PostSheep Smart, on 06 May 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

I dont hate research ( for who asked above). I simply disagree with conventional theories that are answered halfass.

Unfortunately, you don't seem to make much of distinction between "things you haven't bothered to learn much about" and "coventional theories that are answered halfass [sic]". Just because you haven't learned the answer to a question doesn't mean there is no answer (or is answered "halfass" as you rather eloquently put it), or that an answer you subscribe to after 15 mins of YouTube video is as compelling as one that took a scholar 15 years to put forth.

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Because thats exactly what they are as of yet.

...so far as you know. Which, as above, is not particularly comprehensive.

Quote

nor am i content with the conclusions many have made.

emphasis on many.

Which begs the question -- if all theories are not equal, is ignorance all kinds equal?

Quote

you can paste  as many links up as you wish. fact is i may not agree. probably a couple million others as well.

See, this what I meant by 'militant ignorance': not just that you /are/ ignorant -- which you've already demonstrated, specifically about conventions in Medieval painting -- but insist on remaining so in the face of opportunities to learn more. It is not a becoming trait.

--Jaylemurph

"... amongst the most obstinate of our opinions may be classed those which derive from discussions in which we affect to search for the truth, while in reality we are only fortifying prejudice."     -- James Fenimore Cooper, The Pathfinder

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#101    third_eye

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:46 AM

Just to be fair .... its the reluctance of academia to even acknowledge the similarities of expression between current times and the ancient works regarding these strange objects in the sky and UFO paranoia today that is kinda frustrating .... I can relate to those sentiments.

Not saying its evidence of alien visitation mind you ... but the similarities is there quite clearly, what I'm interested is the inspiration and visual interpretations that is common and similar spanning tens of thousands of years and across the cultural and geological expanse.

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' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#102    cormac mac airt

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 03:00 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 06 May 2013 - 02:46 AM, said:

Just to be fair .... its the reluctance of academia to even acknowledge the similarities of expression between current times and the ancient works regarding these strange objects in the sky and UFO paranoia today that is kinda frustrating .... I can relate to those sentiments.

Not saying its evidence of alien visitation mind you ... but the similarities is there quite clearly, what I'm interested is the inspiration and visual interpretations that is common and similar spanning tens of thousands of years and across the cultural and geological expanse.

We have the modern mindset amongst many, who think that every depiction of something simply "must" be what it looks like and therefore extraterrestrial, to thank for that conundrum IMO. And an added level of paranoia concerning any group that they don't have any immediate influence over and who also simply "must" be plotting against them. I often wonder how they manage to ever leave home since apparently 'the sky is falling'.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 06 May 2013 - 03:01 AM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#103    third_eye

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 03:06 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 06 May 2013 - 03:00 AM, said:

We have the modern mindset amongst many, who think that every depiction of something simply "must" be what it looks like and therefore extraterrestrial, to thank for that conundrum IMO. And an added level of paranoia concerning any group that they don't have any immediate influence over and who also simply "must" be plotting against them. I often wonder how they manage to ever leave home since apparently 'the sky is falling'.

cormac

I get it Sir cormac ... ye knows I did ... and still does .... when I do :lol:

2012 its still fresh in their memory /// the sky might take a bit of time to fall :tu:

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#104    Exeter

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 03:15 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 06 May 2013 - 03:00 AM, said:

We have the modern mindset amongst many, who think that every depiction of something simply "must" be what it looks like and therefore extraterrestrial, to thank for that conundrum IMO. And an added level of paranoia concerning any group that they don't have any immediate influence over and who also simply "must" be plotting against them. I often wonder how they manage to ever leave home since apparently 'the sky is falling'.

cormac

If you're old enough, think back to how people thought in the 80s, or even the 70s. The accepted opinion was just fine for their time. Now we're in the 2010s. Advances have been made technologically, but we're still the same old animals. It's easy to apply the current mind set to what earlier generations thought, even though it's not accurate.

What i can't understand is why the current academia's opinion must be the end-all explanation for anything that doesn't fit with our current understanding.

Donna

UFOs = weather balloons of the Gods.

#105    cormac mac airt

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 03:46 AM

View PostExeter, on 06 May 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

If you're old enough, think back to how people thought in the 80s, or even the 70s. The accepted opinion was just fine for their time. Now we're in the 2010s. Advances have been made technologically, but we're still the same old animals. It's easy to apply the current mind set to what earlier generations thought, even though it's not accurate.

What i can't understand is why the current academia's opinion must be the end-all explanation for anything that doesn't fit with our current understanding.

Donna

I'm 50. Who's "accepted opinion" was just fine? I grew up a military brat, having lived is 15 different states and Germany twice. Science was my interest then, as it is now, and opinions were nearly always changing for the most part.

While there are exceptions to any rule Academia doesn't pretend to be the end-all/be-all of all knowledge. However, as is often the case, when they do have definitive answers there are always groups who seem to think that since those groups don't like said answers they can simply rewrite the existing knowledgebase based on nothing more than "I don't believe it". In short, many of those against academia create their own problems and then p***-n-moan about it to anyone who will listen. I myself don't feel sorry for them.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus




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