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Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?


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#16    Mr Walker

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 04:10 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 05 May 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

To Mr. Walker

My main problem with the Trinity is that nowhere in the NT is the teaching made explicit, and I cannot imagine the failure to do so of such a central doctrine.  The word "Trinity" does not even appear, nor do phrases like "God the Son," or "Three in one," and so on.  You only infer it from suggestions that can be interpreted many ways.

It seems reasonable to me that a century or so after the Gospels were born comparisons between this Jesus and other cult-heads started being made, and Jesus was seen to come off poorer, so they developed the teaching in comparison with many other similar "trinities" that existed back then in order to "elevate" Jesus to godhood and make him more "salable."  Now of course the way I just expressed it would not be what happened.  Instead, these Christians felt an insufficiency, saw the trinities around them, and thought, "Now that is the way it must have been."

That is possible, yet the bible in certiain specific pasages and in overlall context strongly suggests a trinitarian type of god. For my personal comments based on my own experiences with god, see my previous post.

PAul/sau,l who reshaped the direction of early christianity, had an experience which illustrates the nature of the trinity. A part of god entered into him. And yet god remained the same . How did god "extrude" a part of his consciousness into a mortal man in a way as to be clear to that mortal man,  and yet remain god. How did, indeed, god become a man on earth, imbuing that being with all the powers of god, and  creating a man who could not die until he surrendered (quite clearly and verbally) the holy spirit? How could such a mortal shell be  physically reborn, and at the same time transformed, unless a part of god could enter into him?

it is very difficult to accept the totality of biblical christianity unless you accept a form of trinitarian god. Otherwise you have to see the holy spirit and christ as entirely separate entities, and yet they are not always so.

Christ is called the son of god, and christ on earth (materially) was the physical son of god (according to scripture) but the equivalent of christ -not as a man, but as an entity in heaven was not the son of god but a part of him (the word) As to the spirit. jn 4 24 says that god is a spirit, yet the bible also says that god walked the earth as a man, and appears in other physical shapes and forms,  a moving finger, fire, light, etc.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#17    Jor-el

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 04:35 PM

View PostAlter2Ego, on 05 May 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

2. HELLFIRE
The teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.

5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)


6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it.

I have to ask, do by any chance know anything of Hebrew and Koine Greek?

The reason is that your questions reveal a certain ignorance of those ancient languages and you seem to be going by a purely English version of the bible. Since the English version is not the original how do you know that you are quoting scripture correctly from a translation?

Simple point of evidence, is the quote you provided, the original Greek text does not say hell.

New International Version (©2011)
Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.

English Standard Version (©2001)
he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

The actual word used in the Greek text is ᾅδην which is translated "hades", it is not Hell.

Quote

6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?

It isn't it is a mistranslation of the English translation you are using. And you missed another half dozen words that can be added to those three...

Sheol is the same as Hades - It is the abode of the dead, the place of all departed spirits saved and unsaved. One is Hebrew, the other is Greek for the same place.

Tartarus is a specific location within Hades / Sheol, it is most often referred to as a pit or an abyss, the deepest place within Hades, another reference calls it "a bottomless pit", where the angels who left their own habitation (positions of authority) are imprisoned, chained until the day of judgment. as can be seen in Jude 1:5-6.

Gehenna is also a specific place within Hades / Sheol, it where the lost suffer as can be seen in Luke 16:19-31. But it is not hell.

Paradise (also known as the bosom of Abraham) is also a place within Hades / Sheol, it is also once again referenced in the same scripture above.

None of these terms are equivalent to hell in any way form or shape... Hell is only referenced in Revelation 20. It is the term we use to reference one specific phrase, "The Lake of Fire" and it was never created with the intent to punish human beings, it was created by God for judgment of the angels, Babylon implicitly (Revelation 17:16; 18:9-10; 19:3), and the beast, the false prophet and the dragon explicitly.

It is, as Jesus said, "prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mt 25:41).

All of the earthly human followers of the dragon, the false prophet and the beast are thrown into the lake of fire, 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

It then tells us that the lake of fire is the 2nd death, which means a resurrection of all people is understood as well.

Now interpretations differ. Some view this as eternal suffering, others as  a place of destruction or nonexistence and yet others of eternal separation from God, they effectively cease to exist for him, but continue to exist somewhere never to return to Gods awareness.

Either way, the lake of fire is hell.

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#18    Alter2Ego

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 05:47 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 05 May 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

My point seems to have gone past you -- there can be no such thing as infallible scripture.  It is a logical impossibility because it is written in fallible languages and read by fallible people.
ALTER2EGO -to- FRANK MERTON:
You are now doing what's known as wash, rinse, and repeat--while telling me your personal opinion of why the Bible is fallible.  The Bible writers were inspired by an infallible God to write.  They were simply the secretaries taking instructions to write.  In other words, they were not the ultimate source of the writings in the Judeo-Christian Bible.  Jehovah, the infallible God, is the source and it was he that inspiried them to write.This is confirmed by the Bible itself.


"{16} ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, {17} that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)


~***~



"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

#19    Alter2Ego

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:10 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 05 May 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Certainly i could show that god the father and god /christ   or the word are one  But you would have tio accpe ttha tthe words of the bible show that christ IS the word of god.

Christ as man on earth is NOT representative of the nature of christ the angel, or word, in heaven.

But it is irrelevant really. First I do not care what you believe about the trinity I tis not important to your "salvation" or critical to your ongoing relationship with god. And second I know god personally and physically as a mentor friend protector etc I have known the power of the holy spirit in my body and know its many positive effects. I have felt the power of god in my mind as we meet mind to mind and  in my body as a part of me I have  benefited greatly  from this. i would not be aive without gods presence.

Everthing I have, and am, is due to god, and  god's presence has empowered and transformed me from a "mere mortal man" into a part of god. In doing this it has freed me from the human  traps of pain suffering anger etc and filled my life with power joy etc.


And so, for me, the trinity is also, in a way irrelevant, except for this. Humans are a trinity themsleves, and we are modelled on god. And the whole bible story from alpha to omega illustrates the diverse and complex nature of god. God IS a trinity, in the sense that a human being is a trinity; body (physical entity)  self aware and directed mind and a physical and conscious spirit/will. Other than that, it doesnt really matter. Believe as you will, but stay connected to god in an ongoing personal  connection and relationship with him..

In my experience, god christ and spirit, are all a part of one greater entity. And they are coequal and coeternal in the same way that our body mind and spirit are linked into a coequal and coeternal whole. But in god's case his nature allows him also to separate these pieces so that they can exist independently  This is how his spirit can enter us or his mind can link with ours.

But thengod is neither human nor male and is a very different being, physically, to what we are. "He" is a being, in which energy,  consciousness, and matter, exist interchangeably  at his will.
ALTER2EGO -to MR WALKER:
I have no doubt of your sincerity and that the above is what you believe.  But sincerity alone is not enough. So as soon as you can produce the scriptures that indicate Jehovah (the Father), Jesus Christ (the Son), and God's holy spirit are three persons that are all the same god, and they are three "persons" that are co-equal and co-eternal, be sure and post it in this thread.  

Don't forget to provide Bible book, chapter, and verse so the rest of us can find it. And be sure and bold the words that you are focusing on within each scriptural quotation.  Let's start with your four (4) best examples of scriptures that you believe are proof of trinity.

Edited by Alter2Ego, 05 May 2013 - 06:12 PM.

"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

#20    Jor-el

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 07:34 PM

View PostAlter2Ego, on 05 May 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

ALTER2EGO -to MR WALKER:
I have no doubt of your sincerity and that the above is what you believe.  But sincerity alone is not enough. So as soon as you can produce the scriptures that indicate Jehovah (the Father), Jesus Christ (the Son), and God's holy spirit are three persons that are all the same god, and they are three "persons" that are co-equal and co-eternal, be sure and post it in this thread.  

Don't forget to provide Bible book, chapter, and verse so the rest of us can find it. And be sure and bold the words that you are focusing on within each scriptural quotation.  Let's start with your four (4) best examples of scriptures that you believe are proof of trinity.

Do you deny that the son is God? and that the Holy Spirit is God as well?

If you do, deny this then do you agree that as such Jesus Christ cannot under any circumstances share the same titles as given to God?

Edited by Jor-el, 05 May 2013 - 07:39 PM.

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#21    Alter2Ego

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:43 PM

View PostJor-el, on 05 May 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

Contrary to your opinion there is more than enough evidence to provide contextual proof within he bible and also ancient Jewish sources regarding the Trinity.

One such source of the many that I can possibly choose from is a simple and direct quote from the bible that you cannot ignore.

Ecclesiastes 12:1

Remember also thy Creators in days of thy youth, While that the evil days come not, Nor the years have arrived, that thou sayest, 'I have no pleasure in them.'


So do we have more than one creator or not?

ALTER2EGO -to- JOR-EL:

There is only ONE Creator, Almighty God Jehovah.  You presented a deliberate translation blunder above.  Notice the same verse from five different Bibles.

"Remember your Creator in the days of your youth, before the days of trouble come and the years approach when you will say, "I find no pleasure in them--" (Ecclesiastes 12:1 -- New International Version)


"Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;" (Ecclesiastes 12:1 -- King James Version)


"Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, "I have no delight in them"; (Ecclesiastes 12:1 --New American Standard Bible)


"Remember thy Creator in the days of thy youth, before the time of affliction come, and the years draw nigh of which thou shalt say: They please me not:" (Ecclesiastes 12:1 -- Douay-Rheims Bible)


"Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come, and the years draw near, when you will say, "I have no pleasure in them;" (Ecclesiastes 12:1 --New American Standard Bible)


All of the Bibles that I quoted, above, are Trinitarian Bibles.  But as anyone can see, even they did not take the liberty of making the word "Creator" plural, as with the version you quoted above.  You are quoting from Young's Literal Translation, which has gone overboard with its fabrication by turning "Creator" into "Creators." The original Hebrew word בוראך Borecha is singular for "Creator."

"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

#22    Jor-el

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:52 PM

View PostAlter2Ego, on 05 May 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

ALTER2EGO -to- JOR-EL:

There is only ONE Creator, Almighty God Jehovah.  You presented a deliberate translation blunder above.  Notice the same verse from five different Bibles.

"Remember your Creator in the days of your youth, before the days of trouble come and the years approach when you will say, "I find no pleasure in them--" (Ecclesiastes 12:1 -- New International Version)


"Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;" (Ecclesiastes 12:1 -- King James Version)


"Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, "I have no delight in them"; (Ecclesiastes 12:1 --New American Standard Bible)


"Remember thy Creator in the days of thy youth, before the time of affliction come, and the years draw nigh of which thou shalt say: They please me not:" (Ecclesiastes 12:1 -- Douay-Rheims Bible)


"Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come, and the years draw near, when you will say, "I have no pleasure in them;" (Ecclesiastes 12:1 --New American Standard Bible)


All of the Bibles that I quoted, above, are Trinitarian Bibles.  But as anyone can see, even they did not take the liberty of making the word "Creator" plural, as with the version you quoted above.  You are quoting from Young's Literal Translation, which has gone overboard with its fabrication by turning "Creator" into "Creators." The original Hebrew word בוראך Borecha is singular for "Creator."

Got you.....

What I posted was the literal translation from the Hebrew... :yes:

What you posted were the mistranslations because of the discomfort of some people in admitting the existence of this verse...

12 Remember also thy Creators in days of thy youth, While that the evil days come not, Nor the years have arrived, that thou sayest, `I have no pleasure in them.'

Uwzkor 'et- bowrª'eykaa biymeey bªchuwroteykaa `ad 'ªsher lo'- yaabo'uw yªmeey haaraa`aah wªhigiy`uw shaaniym 'ªsher to'mar 'Eeyn- liy baahem cheepets—

Bowrª'eykaa is a plural participle and is literally "your Creators."


Hey don't believe if you want but I think this link is demonstrative of my case. http://parsha.blogsp...and-elilim.html

Just for your ease of understanding the relevant word creator (creators) is rendered בּ֣וֹרְאֶ֔יךָ

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#23    Jor-el

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:23 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 05 May 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Certainly i could show that god the father and god /christ   or the word are one  But you would have to accept that the words of the bible show that christ IS the word of god.

Christ as man on earth is NOT representative of the nature of christ the angel, or word, in heaven.

But it is irrelevant really. First I do not care what you believe about the trinity I tis not important to your "salvation" or critical to your ongoing relationship with god. And second I know god personally and physically as a mentor friend protector etc I have known the power of the holy spirit in my body and know its many positive effects. I have felt the power of god in my mind as we meet mind to mind and  in my body as a part of me I have  benefited greatly  from this. i would not be aive without gods presence.

Everthing I have, and am, is due to god, and  god's presence has empowered and transformed me from a "mere mortal man" into a part of god. In doing this it has freed me from the human  traps of pain suffering anger etc and filled my life with power joy etc.


And so, for me, the trinity is also, in a way irrelevant, except for this. Humans are a trinity themsleves, and we are modelled on god. And the whole bible story from alpha to omega illustrates the diverse and complex nature of god. God IS a trinity, in the sense that a human being is a trinity; body (physical entity)  self aware and directed mind and a physical and conscious spirit/will. Other than that, it doesnt really matter. Believe as you will, but stay connected to god in an ongoing personal  connection and relationship with him..

In my experience, god christ and spirit, are all a part of one greater entity. And they are coequal and coeternal in the same way that our body mind and spirit are linked into a coequal and coeternal whole. But in god's case his nature allows him also to separate these pieces so that they can exist independently  This is how his spirit can enter us or his mind can link with ours.

But thengod is neither human nor male and is a very different being, physically, to what we are. "He" is a being, in which energy,  consciousness, and matter, exist interchangeably  at his will.

Hi Mr. Walker let me help you out with a number of verses that do demonstrate that you are correct and that Jesus is indeed God.

The Cloud Rider used by Jesus and of Yahweh himself

The very term "Cloud Rider", is a statement of Deity. Specifically of one particular Deity, Yahweh himself.

Isaiah 19:1 (ESV)

19 An oracle concerning Egypt.
Behold, YAHWEH is riding on a swift cloud,
and comes to Egypt;
and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence,
and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them

Deuteronomy 33:26 (ESV)

26  “There is none like EL, O Jeshurun,
who rides through the heavens to your help,
through the skies in his majesty.

Psalm 68:33 (ESV)

33  to Him who rides in the heavens, the ancient heavens;
behold, he sends out his voice, his mighty voice

Psalm 104:3 (ESV)

3  He lays the beams of his chambers on the waters;
he makes the clouds his chariot;
he rides on the wings of the wind;

Daniel 7:9-14

9“As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.
11“Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12(The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)
13“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

The language is not symbolic, the Cloud Rider is none other than God himself!

Notice especially Daniel where the ancient of Days (God) is seated on his throne when "one like a son of man" (human being) comes into his presence. He is given dominion over all men and the WORSHIP him!

So to whom exactly did God give his authority, his power and his dominion?

So who is the Cloud Rider?

Matthew 26:64-68

And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.”

64Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

65Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy. 66What is your judgment?” They answered, “He deserves death.” 67Then they spit in his face and struck him. And some slapped him, 68saying, “Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who is it that struck you?”

The answer hasn't changed it seems... the answer is still God.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ancient of Days Title for God and reference to Jesus

Daniel 7:13

In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence."

Micah 5:2

But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days.

"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity."

Daniel 7:9

"As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze.

Titles of God are clear markers of who is considered divine and Deity. It seems the Messiah is considered in this way, the reference can only be of him and of Yahweh himself, there can be no confusion in the parallel.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mighty God, The everlasting Father

Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Every Christian knows this verse is a reference to Jesus and yet the very same verse is calling him mighty God and The everlasting Father. There can be no doubt, if one tries to say this is not Jesus one has to abandon Christian doctrine the messiah. Either this is a reference to the messiah or to God, the context forces us to accept both.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Alpha and Omega, The beginning and End

Revelation 1:8

8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:12-16

12“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Revelation 21:1-7

1Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth, " for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
5He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
6He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

There is no way that anyone can deny that the term is used by God and by Jesus himself, thus Jesus is God and God is a unity of more than one being. I challenge anyone to deny these verses do not say what they do...

How does the saying go?

Q.E.D. :tu:

Edited by Jor-el, 05 May 2013 - 10:25 PM.

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-C. S. Lewis


#24    Alter2Ego

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:34 PM

View PostJor-el, on 05 May 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

Got you.....

What I posted was the literal translation from the Hebrew... :yes:

What you posted were the mistranslations because of the discomfort of some people in admitting the existence of this verse...

12 Remember also thy Creators in days of thy youth, While that the evil days come not, Nor the years have arrived, that thou sayest, `I have no pleasure in them.'

Uwzkor 'et- bowrª'eykaa biymeey bªchuwroteykaa `ad 'ªsher lo'- yaabo'uw yªmeey haaraa`aah wªhigiy`uw shaaniym 'ªsher to'mar 'Eeyn- liy baahem cheepets—

Bowrª'eykaa is a plural participle and is literally "your Creators."


Hey don't believe if you want but I think this link is demonstrative of my case. http://parsha.blogsp...and-elilim.html

Just for your ease of understanding the relevant word creator (creators) is rendered בּ֣וֹרְאֶ֔יךָ
ALTER2EGO -to- JOR-EL:

You didn't get anybody.  The changing of "Creator" to "Creators" at Ecclesiastes 12:1 is found only in modern Bibles.  In the ancient text, it is written in the singular. And if you are going to rely on a single verse of scripture--that clearly is a translation blunder--you are not going to get very far in proving trinity as being a Bible teaching.  Especially when the dogma is debunked by scripture after scripture, throughout the Judeo-Christian Bible.

Edited by Alter2Ego, 05 May 2013 - 10:37 PM.

"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

#25    Mr Walker

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:39 PM

View PostAlter2Ego, on 05 May 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

ALTER2EGO -to MR WALKER:
I have no doubt of your sincerity and that the above is what you believe.  But sincerity alone is not enough. So as soon as you can produce the scriptures that indicate Jehovah (the Father), Jesus Christ (the Son), and God's holy spirit are three persons that are all the same god, and they are three "persons" that are co-equal and co-eternal, be sure and post it in this thread.  

Don't forget to provide Bible book, chapter, and verse so the rest of us can find it. And be sure and bold the words that you are focusing on within each scriptural quotation.  Let's start with your four (4) best examples of scriptures that you believe are proof of trinity.
It is not my job to convince you,or to even try and alter your beliefs. You can take that a a cop out if you wish.But it has a much more positive intent.
By the by, Jorel has produced many verses which can clearly be intepreted in the overall context of the bible as pointing to a god who is 3 separate entiities who yet are one. I've already explained how i see humans as  also being of this model. There are 3 distinct parts to us yet we are one whole being. Consciousness, Physical body, and energy and other systems which connect mind and body.

While years of reading and study leads me to think of god as trinitarian, the same conclusions might not be clear to you. That's ok The bible is NOT the infallible word of god It is the understanding of god presented by men and women some of whom walked with god.  And it IS very difficult to interpret. The important thing for an individual to do is first, study the bible, open their heart and mind to god and do their best to understand it. The second thing is NOT to ever take another person's word for what the bible says or  for the nature of god No matter what authority  that person seems to have.
God appears to humans in many ways and forms. That is the observable nature of god. He might well seem different to you and I.

Edited by Mr Walker, 05 May 2013 - 10:47 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#26    Jor-el

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:40 PM

View PostAlter2Ego, on 05 May 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

ALTER2EGO -to- JOR-EL:

You didn't get anybody.  The changing of "Creator" to "Creators" is found only in modern Bibles.  In the ancient text, it is written in the singular. And if you are going to rely on a single verse of scripture--that clearly is a translation blunder--you are not going to get very far in proving trinity as being a Bible teaching.  Especially when the dogma is debunked by scripture after scripture, throughout the Judeo-Christian Bible.

I call you on that, the link I posted is from a Jewish site that reflects this very issue, they admit to the plural, it is there whether you accept it or not.

As for your allegation that it is found only in modern bibles, you just quoted half a dozen of them and they all translate to the singular. I quoted directly from the Hebrew using the YLT, a literal translation of the text and a clear reflection of the Hebrew itself, live with it.

The Bible text designated YLT is from the 1898 Young's Literal Translation by Robert Young who also compiled Young's Analytical Concordance. This is an extremely literal translation that attempts to preserve the tense and word usage as found in the original Greek and Hebrew writings. The text was scanned from a reprint of the 1898 edition as published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids Michigan. The book is still in print and may be ordered from Baker Book House. Obvious errors in spelling or inconsistent spellings of the same word were corrected in the computer edition of the text.

http://www.biblegate...tion-YLT-Bible/

Edited by Jor-el, 05 May 2013 - 10:43 PM.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#27    docyabut2

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:51 PM

Well to me the trinity is the spirit of life, God, Jesus and in speaking of all human life into one.John 17-

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;


Hell in the sin against ones self, the holy spirit, the one sin that was spoke of thats never forgiven. God forgives, but one can`nt really forgive one`self, only by forgiving others  Thats why Jesus said to settle it before you get to the court, because when you get the court, God not going to judge but one judges them self. Gee thats all Jesus talk about was forgivenness for all, right up to the cross.

Edited by docyabut2, 05 May 2013 - 11:05 PM.


#28    Alter2Ego

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:04 PM

View PostJor-el, on 05 May 2013 - 10:40 PM, said:

I call you on that, the link I posted is from a Jewish site that reflects this very issue, they admit to the plural, it is there whether you accept it or not.

As for your allegation that it is found only in modern bibles, you just quoted half a dozen of them and they all translate to the singular. I quoted directly from the Hebrew using the YLT, a literal translation of the text and a clear reflection of the Hebrew itself, live with it.

The Bible text designated YLT is from the 1898 Young's Literal Translation by Robert Young who also compiled Young's Analytical Concordance. This is an extremely literal translation that attempts to preserve the tense and word usage as found in the original Greek and Hebrew writings. The text was scanned from a reprint of the 1898 edition as published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids Michigan. The book is still in print and may be ordered from Baker Book House. Obvious errors in spelling or inconsistent spellings of the same word were corrected in the computer edition of the text.

http://www.biblegate...tion-YLT-Bible/

ALTER2EGO -to- JOR-EL:
It matters not that it is a Jewish website.  Let me remind you that Jews, as a people, overwhelmingly reject Jesus Christ and insist, to this day, that the Jesus Christ of the Bible is not their Messiah.  So if you are going to look to them for help in proving that Jesus is also Jehovah in a 3-prong-god, you're in bad shape.

Furthermore, I already informed you that ancient Hebrew manuscripts render Ecclesiastes 12:1 as singular "Creator." Notice one commentary confirming this.

Quote

Remember thy Creator - בוראיך Boreeycha, thy Creators. The word is most certainly in the plural number in all our common Hebrew Bibles; but it is in the singular number, בוראך Borecha, in one hundred and seventy-six of Dr. Kennicott's MSS., and ninety-six of De Rossi's; in many ancient editions; and in all the ancient versions. There is no dependence on the plural form in most of the modern editions; though there are some editions of great worth which exhibit the word in this form, and among them the Complutensian, Antwerp, Paris, and London polyglots.
(Source: Clarke's Commentary on the Bible)


The commentator, who is clearly a Trinitarian, then goes on to admit that to rely on Ecclesiastes 12:1 for proof of trinity is "precarious" and amounts to resorting to "dubious" means.

Quote

The evidence, therefore, that this text is supposed to give to the doctrine of the ever blessed Trinity, is but precarious, and on it little stress can be laid; and no man who loves truth would wish to support it by dubious witnesses. Injudicious men, by laying stress on texts dubious in themselves, and which may be interpreted a different way, greatly injure the true faith. Though such in their hearts may be friends to the orthodox faith, they are in fact its worst friends, and their assistance is such as helps their adversaries.
(Source: Clarke's Commentary on the Bible)
http://clarke.biblec...esiastes/12.htm


Not only that, one single verse of scripture from Ecclesiastes 12:1 does not help your case for Trinity, because the rest of the Bible says otherwise.

Edited by Alter2Ego, 05 May 2013 - 11:06 PM.

"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

#29    Alter2Ego

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:19 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 05 May 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

It is not my job to convince you,or to even try and alter your beliefs. You can take that a a cop out if you wish.But it has a much more positive intent.
By the by, Jorel has produced many verses which can clearly be intepreted in the overall context of the bible as pointing to a god who is 3 separate entiities who yet are one. I've already explained how i see humans as  also being of this model. There are 3 distinct parts to us yet we are one whole being. Consciousness, Physical body, and energy and other systems which connect mind and body.

While years of reading and study leads me to think of god as trinitarian, the same conclusions might not be clear to you. That's ok The bible is NOT the infallible word of god It is the understanding of god presented by men and women some of whom walked with god.  And it IS very difficult to interpret. The important thing for an individual to do is first, study the bible, open their heart and mind to god and do their best to understand it. The second thing is NOT to ever take another person's word for what the bible says or  for the nature of god No matter what authority  that person seems to have.
God appears to humans in many ways and forms. That is the observable nature of god. He might well seem different to you and I.

ALTER2EGO -to- MR WALKER:
Now you are getting it twisted.  I did not ask you to convince me of anything, much less attempt to alter my belief.  I asked you to show me where you see trinity in the Bible by quoting at least four (4) verses and then bolding the parts of each verse that you believe refers to Father, Son, and holy ghost being combined into a single god and in which they are co-equal and co-eternal.  You have not produced a single verse up to this point as proof of anything.  Instead you keep coming back with the same wash, rinse, and repeat by telling me your personal philosophy aka you personal opinion.  

This is a public forum.  Everybody on this planet has an opinion and can therefore duplicate what you are doing by talking about their personal philosophy and insisting that merely because they believe whatever, then it must be so.  Talk is cheap.  Biblical proof is what's required when discussing Christian doctrines--especially when the doctrine (trinity) did not officially become Christian teaching until more than 300 years after Jesus Christ returned to heavenly life.

Telling me what you believe and showing me where the Bible says what you are claiming it says are two entirely different things.

BTW: Don't look to Jor-el to help you, because he is presently stuck on a single verse of scripture (Ecclesiastes 12:1) as his proof of a 3-prong god.  He is convinced that Ecclesiastes 12:1, where a translation blunder occurred with the word "Creator" vs. "Creators" is his trump card.  Meanwhile, the rest of the Bible repeatedly has Jesus Christ being inferior to Jehovah instead of being co-equal, and the Bible confirms that Jesus is not eternal and that only Jehovah (the Father) is eternal.

Edited by Alter2Ego, 05 May 2013 - 11:23 PM.

"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

#30    Jor-el

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:38 PM

View PostAlter2Ego, on 05 May 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:

ALTER2EGO -to- JOR-EL:
It matters not that it is a Jewish website.  Let me remind you that Jews, as a people, overwhelmingly reject Jesus Christ and insist, to this day, that the Jesus Christ of the Bible is not their Messiah.  So if you are going to look to them for help in proving that Jesus is also Jehovah in a 3-prong-god, you're in bad shape.

And exactly for that reason they are the best authority on the reading of this verse, since they admit categorically that the verse is rendered "your creators" and ARE NOT Trinitarians they outweigh the modern readings even by Trinitarians themselves.

Quote

Furthermore, I already informed you that ancient Hebrew manuscripts render Ecclesiastes 12:1 as singular "Creator." Notice one commentary confirming this.


(Source: Clarke's Commentary on the Bible)


The commentator, who is clearly a Trinitarian, then goes on to admit that to rely on Ecclesiastes 12:1 for proof of trinity is "precarious" and amounts to resorting to "dubious" means.


(Source: Clarke's Commentary on the Bible)
http://clarke.biblec...esiastes/12.htm


Not only that, one single verse of scripture from Ecclesiastes 12:1 does not help your case for Trinity, because the rest of the Bible says otherwise.

Again you are incorrect, that reading does confirm the rest of the bible as I have already demonstrated in a post to Mr. Walker, which you have avoided commenting on, I can provide links all day long to parallels like that, that you cannot refute. You hard headedness in refusing to see what is there, is a symptom of only one thing, believing what others tell you instead of putting the priority on the Word itself.

See: http://www.unexplain...15#entry4761789

PS -  I went and read Clarkes Commentary but you seem to have ignored others like Gills Commentary and others.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth,.... Or "Creators" ( B); as "Makers", Job 35:10; for more than one were concerned, as in the creation of all things in general, so of man in particular, Genesis 1:26; and these are neither more nor fewer than three; and are Father, Son, Spirit; the one God that has created men, Malachi 2:10; the Father, who is the God of all flesh, and the Father of spirits; the former both of the bodies and souls of men, Jeremiah 31:27; the Son, by whom all things are created; for he that is the Redeemer and husband of his church, which are characters and relations peculiar to the Son, is the Creator, Isaiah 43:1; and the Holy Spirit not only garnished the heavens, and moved upon the face of the waters, but is the Maker of men, and gives them life, Job 33:4.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
CHAPTER 12
Ec 12:1-14.
1. As Ec 11:9, 10 showed what youths are to shun, so this verse shows what they are to follow.
Creator-"Remember" that thou art not thine own, but God's property; for He has created thee (Ps 100:3). Therefore serve Him with thy "all" (Mr 12:30), and with thy best days, not with the dregs of them (Pr 8:17; 22:6; Jer 3:4; La 3:27). The Hebrew is "Creators," plural, implying the plurality of persons, as in Ge 1:26; so Hebrew, "Makers" (Isa 54:5).
while . not-that is, before that (Pr 8:26) the evil days come; namely, calamity and old age, when one can no longer serve God, as in youth (Ec 11:2, 8).
no pleasure-of a sensual kind (2Sa 19:35; Ps 90:10). Pleasure in God continues to the godly old (Isa 46:4).

Edited by Jor-el, 05 May 2013 - 11:51 PM.

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