Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * - - 6 votes

Is Israel an Apartheid state?


  • Please log in to reply
319 replies to this topic

#121    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 17 May 2013 - 12:09 PM

View PostXingWi, on 17 May 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

By ethnic cleansing of Occupied Palestine of its non-Jewish population.

The Nakba (disaster/calamity suffered by indigenous non-Jewish Palestinians) that started with the establishment of Israel in 1948, never ended. The forcible displacement of the indigenous Palestinian people from their homes continues till this day.

Here is a fine article on this issue with ample references. Everyone, please take time to read this full article:


The Ongoing Nakba: The continuous forcible displacement of the Palestinian people


Here is another one:

The Nakba is a past and a present, a continuous and developing process of Zionist colonization


Of course,I expect some here to scream, "propaganda...", like they usually do, but the truth is not hard to see for those who are willing to see it.

Fantastic articles, XingWi! Thanks for sharing them.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#122    Erikl

Erikl

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,520 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 17 May 2013 - 12:19 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 17 May 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

grant the Palestinians the right of return ... in obedience to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Wrong and a lie. The "right" of return doesn't exist - especially given the fact that hereditary refuge-dom is unheard of.

Quote

Please remember, the Zionists are the aliens and colonialists.
Wrong again. Jews have been living in the Middle East and in what is now Israel for thousands of years. As a matter of fact, about 50% of the current Israeli Zionist Jews, are of Middle Eastern descent. They have been ethnically cleansed from their homelands by Arabs about 70-60 years ago as a result of a rise of anti-Semitic pro-Nazi sentiment in the Arab world. Their children and grandchildren are now living their lives in Israel.

Edited by Erikl, 17 May 2013 - 12:19 PM.

Posted Image

"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#123    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 17 May 2013 - 12:28 PM

View PostErikl, on 17 May 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Wrong and a lie. The "right" of return doesn't exist - especially given the fact that hereditary refuge-dom is unheard of.

According to who? You? I call bull. The refugees are the dispossessed Arabs of Palestine. They were given the right of return immediately under Resolution 194 on December 11 1948. The UN has reaffirmed Resolution 194 EVERY year since 1949.


Quote

Wrong again. Jews have been living in the Middle East and in what is now Israel for thousands of years. As a matter of fact, about 50% of the current Israeli Zionist Jews, are of Middle Eastern descent. They have been ethnically cleansed from their homelands by Arabs about 70-60 years ago as a result of a rise of anti-Semitic pro-Nazi sentiment in the Arab world. Their children and grandchildren are now living their lives in Israel.

But were these Middle Eastern Jews... Palestinian Jews? Thus they are still aliens and colonialists!

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#124    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 12,812 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 17 May 2013 - 01:41 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 17 May 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

According to who? You? I call bull. The refugees are the dispossessed Arabs of Palestine. They were given the right of return immediately under Resolution 194 on December 11 1948. The UN has reaffirmed Resolution 194 EVERY year since 1949.




But were these Middle Eastern Jews... Palestinian Jews? Thus they are still aliens and colonialists!
How will you remove them?  What RIGHT do you claim to remove them?  Where will you place them?  How much death and destruction is it worth to return Palestinian "refugees" to "their" land?  What is your "solution"?

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#125    Erikl

Erikl

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,520 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:42 PM

Quote

According to who? You? I call bull. The refugees are the dispossessed Arabs of Palestine. They were given the right of return immediately under Resolution 194 on December 11 1948. The UN has reaffirmed Resolution 194 EVERY year since 1949.

You can call bull, while I can ask how come the UN have set a special definition for a Palestinian refugee, different than any other refugee, in a time there were tens of millions of refugees around the world (after WW2). For some reason, 600-400,000 refugees have grown to an astonishing 5-10 million Palestinian refugees, even though no one is making them leave anymore. How can refuge-dom be hereditary? This is unheared of anywhere in the political history. How come the Arab countries continue to lock Palestinians behind bars? How come the UN doesn't call upon these countries to assimilate and naturalize people with the exact same language, religion and culture (Muslim Arabs)?

Quote

But were these Middle Eastern Jews... Palestinian Jews? Thus they are still aliens and colonialists!

Are the Palestinians themselves Palestinians? Most of the people you consider Palestinians have lived in other Arab countries more generations than they did in what you and the rest of the world consider Palestine.

Being that until 80 years ago there was no Palestine and no borders in the Middle East, and the definition of the UN for a Palestinian refugee is "a person who resided in Mandatory Palestine from 1946", then these Jews are no colonialists in any way possible.

Btw, this thread is again taken by another member off-topic to spread propaganda. This is pointless. Jews are not colonialists in the area, they haven't come here as colonialists, not in their motives and not in their end result. What's wrong? the apartheid analogy was refuted so you go wild?

Posted Image

"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#126    Erikl

Erikl

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,520 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:44 PM

View Postand then, on 17 May 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

How will you remove them?  What RIGHT do you claim to remove them?  Where will you place them?  How much death and destruction is it worth to return Palestinian "refugees" to "their" land?  What is your "solution"?

We all know the answer don't we? :rolleyes:

Posted Image

"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#127    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:42 PM

View PostErikl, on 17 May 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

You can call bull, while I can ask how come the UN have set a special definition for a Palestinian refugee, different than any other refugee, in a time there were tens of millions of refugees around the world (after WW2). For some reason, 600-400,000 refugees have grown to an astonishing 5-10 million Palestinian refugees, even though no one is making them leave anymore. How can refuge-dom be hereditary? This is unheared of anywhere in the political history. How come the Arab countries continue to lock Palestinians behind bars? How come the UN doesn't call upon these countries to assimilate and naturalize people with the exact same language, religion and culture (Muslim Arabs)?

No, there were 750,000 refugees in 1948 and another 250,000 refugees in 1967. The Palestinians were the indigeneous peoples of Palestine. But the Zionists were colonialists. They began colonizing Palestine since what the 1880s? The Zionists weren't indigeneous. They were European Ashkenazi Jews.

750,000 indigeneous peoples were dispossessed of their land and homes, and again in 1967 when many of these indigeneous peoples became refugees for a second time. The 750,000 refugees growth to the millions is decades worth of population growth in the refugees camps whose rightful homeland is Palestine.

Between 1948 to 1952, Israel's Jewish population doubled.



Quote

Are the Palestinians themselves Palestinians? Most of the people you consider Palestinians have lived in other Arab countries more generations than they did in what you and the rest of the world consider Palestine.

Being that until 80 years ago there was no Palestine and no borders in the Middle East, and the definition of the UN for a Palestinian refugee is "a person who resided in Mandatory Palestine from 1946", then these Jews are no colonialists in any way possible.

Btw, this thread is again taken by another member off-topic to spread propaganda. This is pointless. Jews are not colonialists in the area, they haven't come here as colonialists, not in their motives and not in their end result. What's wrong? the apartheid analogy was refuted so you go wild?

No this thread is being hijacked by alot of Zionist Orwellian doubletalk and doublethink.

Here is the UN definition of the Palestinian refugees:


Palestine refugees

Posted Image
Tags: refugees
Posted Image

Who are Palestine refugees?

Posted Image
Under UNRWA's operational definition, Palestine refugees are people whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict.

UNRWA's services are available to all those living in its area of operations who meet this definition, who are registered with the Agency and who need assistance. The descendants of the original Palestine refugees are also eligible for registration. When the Agency started working in 1950, it was responding to the needs of about 750,000 Palestine refugees. Today, 5 million Palestine refugees are eligible for UNRWA services.

http://www.unrwa.org...plate.php?id=86

Here is the definition of colonialism:

Colonialism is the establishment, exploitation, maintenance, acquisition and expansion of colonies in one territory by people from another territory. It is a set of unequal relationships between the colonial power and the colony and between the colonists and the indigenous population.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Colonialism

Doesn't that describe European Zionism quite perfectly?

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#128    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:46 PM

View Postand then, on 17 May 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

How will you remove them?  What RIGHT do you claim to remove them?  Where will you place them?  How much death and destruction is it worth to return Palestinian "refugees" to "their" land?  What is your "solution"?

First grant the right of return and right of self-determination to the indigeneous peoples namely the Palestinians even it if dissolves the current JEWISH state in favour for a multicultural genuine democracy.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#129    Erikl

Erikl

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,520 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 17 May 2013 - 11:01 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 17 May 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

First grant the right of return and right of self-determination to the indigeneous peoples namely the Palestinians even it if dissolves the current JEWISH state in favour for a multicultural genuine democracy.
Right. We'll do that after we'll give back California and most of the south West to the Mexicans, ok?

Quote

The Palestinians were the indigeneous peoples of Palestine. But the Zionists were colonialists. They began colonizing Palestine since what the 1880s? The Zionists weren't indigeneous. They were European Ashkenazi Jews.
When you call one group by it's ethnicity, yet the other one by it's national movement's name, your entire argument turns into a cheap, lousy, propaganda. Jews were most certainly not colonialists in the region. The fact that Jews and Judaism originates from Judea, an area in what you consider Palestine, kind of contradict this. It has been a long time since I've seen so many terms being abused in one sentence, all thanks to the thought police of the anti-Israeli police. Go and learn what colonialism means. Go and learn what Zionism means. In the mean time, you can continue to support your bogus, fake "humane" cause, that is to support a racist, genocidal, tyrannical nationalist movement called Palestinian nationalism.

There is no point into discussing with you, as you seem to obviously support the destruction of my country. Hence any debate with you will equal a debate with a neo-Nazi about Jews or African-Americans. Go spread your hatred somewhere else.

Edited by Erikl, 17 May 2013 - 11:03 PM.

Posted Image

"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#130    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 12,812 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 17 May 2013 - 11:29 PM

View PostErikl, on 17 May 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

Right. We'll do that after we'll give back California and most of the south West to the Mexicans, ok?


When you call one group by it's ethnicity, yet the other one by it's national movement's name, your entire argument turns into a cheap, lousy, propaganda. Jews were most certainly not colonialists in the region. The fact that Jews and Judaism originates from Judea, an area in what you consider Palestine, kind of contradict this. It has been a long time since I've seen so many terms being abused in one sentence, all thanks to the thought police of the anti-Israeli police. Go and learn what colonialism means. Go and learn what Zionism means. In the mean time, you can continue to support your bogus, fake "humane" cause, that is to support a racist, genocidal, tyrannical nationalist movement called Palestinian nationalism.

There is no point into discussing with you, as you seem to obviously support the destruction of my country. Hence any debate with you will equal a debate with a neo-Nazi about Jews or African-Americans. Go spread your hatred somewhere else.
I rarely directly answer questions from this poster any longer for this very reason.  It is impossible to have a reasoned back and forth.  I believe any one has a right to be as anti Israel or America as they want to be, but I have NO respect for someone who will never admit their stance openly.  Especially when the end result of what they advocate for is death and destruction of an entire people.  That may sound incendiary but I challenge anyone to deny it in a rational way.   Grrrrrrrrr  :no:

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#131    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 18 May 2013 - 08:02 AM

View PostErikl, on 17 May 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

Right. We'll do that after we'll give back California and most of the south West to the Mexicans, ok?

That same argument can be used against the Zionists seeing that the Arabs dominated Palestine for the last 1,300 years before 1948. Why resurrect the long dead Davidic Kingdom that existed around 1000 BCE and lasted until 926 BCE? Prior to the state of Israel, the Davidic Kingdom HASNT existed in approximately 2,871 YEARS. In other words, the last time the Jews ruled this much land in Palestine was approximately 2,936 years ago FROM TODAY. Geezus! Sure, the apostate Kingdom of Judah stood for nearly 350 years thereafter. But that kingdom's domain was really no larger than today's the West Bank.


Quote

When you call one group by it's ethnicity, yet the other one by it's national movement's name, your entire argument turns into a cheap, lousy, propaganda. Jews were most certainly not colonialists in the region. The fact that Jews and Judaism originates from Judea, an area in what you consider Palestine, kind of contradict this. It has been a long time since I've seen so many terms being abused in one sentence, all thanks to the thought police of the anti-Israeli police. Go and learn what colonialism means. Go and learn what Zionism means. In the mean time, you can continue to support your bogus, fake "humane" cause, that is to support a racist, genocidal, tyrannical nationalist movement called Palestinian nationalism.

There is no point into discussing with you, as you seem to obviously support the destruction of my country. Hence any debate with you will equal a debate with a neo-Nazi about Jews or African-Americans. Go spread your hatred somewhere else.

The Zionists were European and there is no evidence they have any direct lineage to the ancient Israelites dating back between 1000 BCE to 586 BCE.

Jews were NOT the first peoples in Palestine though, doesn't the history of Palestine date back to something like 5,000 BCE. The Jews were relatively new comers to the region, the Davidic Kingdom rose around 1000 BCE and lasted a mere 74 years.

The Kingdom of Judah stood for alike something just under 350 years. Not only are the Jews latecomers but out of 7,000 years of human history in Palestine, the Jews "dominated"  around 500 years of it and it was not much larger than today's the West Bank during its longest domain.

Edited by B Jenkins, 18 May 2013 - 08:28 AM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#132    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 18 May 2013 - 08:08 AM

View Postand then, on 17 May 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

I rarely directly answer questions from this poster any longer for this very reason.  It is impossible to have a reasoned back and forth.  I believe any one has a right to be as anti Israel or America as they want to be, but I have NO respect for someone who will never admit their stance openly.  Especially when the end result of what they advocate for is death and destruction of an entire people.  That may sound incendiary but I challenge anyone to deny it in a rational way.   Grrrrrrrrr  :no:

Right!

Arab Palestinians - 1,300 years
Davidic Kingdom - 74 years
Kingdom Of Judah - 344 years
Hasmonean Dynasty - 73 years (as an independent state)
State Of Israel - 65 years and counting

Edited by B Jenkins, 18 May 2013 - 08:28 AM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#133    Erikl

Erikl

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,520 posts
  • Joined:23 Feb 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:35 AM

Quote

Arab Palestinians - 1,300 years
Woah, it seems each and every post in this page by you is full of lies, eh?

There was no independent Arab Palestine ever, in the area. Not ever.

During those 1,300 years, the land was ruled by succession of Muslim and Christian kingdoms and empires. From the 15th century up till 1918 the land was part of the Ottoman, Turkic, non-Arabic empire. It was carved out and named "Palestine" by the league of nation and the British as a result of the fact that in the West, the region was called Palestine, from the Romans naming it that way. The Arabs have called the entire region of Syria, Lebanon and modern Israel as "Bilad Ha-Sham".

The Palestinians themselves didn't come to think themselves as a nation until about 50 years ago. Before that their national movement considered themselves Arabs, part of one single nation of people stretching from Morocco to Iraq. The existence of a separate Palestinian Arab people is the direct result of British and French colonialism - nothing more than that. Before that and even today so-called "Palestinian" families stretch from north Israel all the way to Syria, as until few decades ago the Arab in the region defined themselves by tribal affiliation, not nationhood. That was brought into the region by British and French colonialism.

Jews, on the other hand, have been living in the region for thousands of years. Modern genetic studies have proven that Ashkenazi Jews originate from the Middle East, with very little admixture from non-Jews in Europe (as a result of the fact that Christians were forbidden from marrying Jews).
And that has nothing to do with the fact that half of the Israeli Jews originate from Middle Eastern communities, from where is now Israel, from Syria, from Lebanon, from Iraq, from Morocco, Tunisia etc,. They are intermarried and intermingled with Ashkenazi Jews. So a person whose grandfather came from the Middle East, and his grandmother from Europe - where would you send?

Quote

That same argument can be used against the Zionists
This is exactly what you want. You want to "return" Israel to the Palestinians, even though it wasn't theirs to begin with.
California and most of the south West, was, historically, part of Mexico. And most Mexicans are mostly Native Americans with only some Spanish admixture. So they have much better claim to that area than a bunch of Irish, German, Scots, Italians and Jews coming from Europe and annexing their lands to their newly European-dominant country back in the 19th century, no? :rolleyes:  :wacko:

Posted Image

"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#134    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 12,812 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:43 AM

What he's saying is a Jew isn't a real Jew if he wants a homeland...too sad to be funny...and far too many like him in the world.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#135    Mikko-kun

Mikko-kun

    Docking station

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,399 posts
  • Joined:27 Apr 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Circle

Posted 18 May 2013 - 10:01 AM

View PostErikl, on 17 May 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

Right. We'll do that after we'll give back California and most of the south West to the Mexicans, ok?

The british gave Scotland it's fair chance for independency now. Do you have to be the last ones to make a change just because you were the last ones who made the claim?

No matter what you say can change the state of things in your country. The state of things seems to be that the palestinians are living worse off and being pushed by you, more than the other way around. It's a problem of mutual violence. To stop violence you shouldn't give more reasons to be violent, because that simply doesn't help until one side is obliterated, completely wiped out. Do you really want things to go there?

View PostErikl, on 17 May 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

We all know the answer don't we? :rolleyes:

Why dont you just say it out loud then?

It's a real laughing riot to say there's no apartheid in Israel and to resort to bickery about terminology when there's two big ethnic groups, jews and palestinians basically, and one side's leaders decide to lock the other population behind a big fence, checkpoints, occasionally raid them and allow settlers to take their land because of...? And palestinians do suicide bombing and rocket strikes, yes. It's mutual. Did you think that world war 2 gave you a right to take it out on others because your people had it rough there? There's apartheid, it's mutual, everyone aren't involved as there's those who stay out of it on both "sides" the best they can. That's how it is.

One thing I'd like to see is people pull their heads off their .... and start not bickering and blaming and claiming and putting down their offensive attitute for once around this subject, and even hypothetize a solution both sides could accept.

The end.

I'll be gone.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users