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Is Israel an Apartheid state?


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#151    GoSC

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 03:58 AM

If America was run by the same rules as the State Of Israel


Christians would enjoy a highly privilaged status.

Christians alone can confiscate the property of non-Christians.

Christians alone can carry firearms, non-Christians would be shot if found carrying a firearm.

Christians alone can buy or lease government property.

The homes of non-Christians can be forcibly entered without a search warrant, or dynamited, or sealed.

Non-Christians would be subject to arrest and incarceration for long periods without due process.

In past conquests of America, non-Christians could never become U.S. citizens or have the right to determine their own political future free from U.S. authority. Non-Christians that fled from their homes during these military conquests could never return to their homes and land.

Proselytizing by non-Christians would be punishable up to 5 years in prison.

A religious judge could order a husband to divorce his wife.

A religious judge could deny the divorce to a wronged wife.

A religious judge will permit a brother-in-law to keep a childless wife from remarrying.

Non-Christians can not marry Christians, if a Christian is married to a non-Christian outside of America, their bond will not be recognized by the religious Christian courts of America.

Jewish and other religious non-Christians have to celebrate their greatest religious days with prayer "without any manifestation of jubiliation."

The Christian state of America can legally interfere with centuries-old traditional historic rights, privileges enjoyed by the churches, and proper functioning of non-Christian religious institutions such as imposition of municipal and state taxes.

State policy of America would include assassinations, kidnapping, expulsions, detention without charges or trial, land confiscation, collective punishment, sanction torture, and practice espionage against its greatest allies and its principal benefactors.

Edited by B Jenkins, 19 May 2013 - 04:05 AM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#152    Yamato

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 05:45 AM

View Postand then, on 19 May 2013 - 03:53 AM, said:

Yeah...nuclear weapons in the hands of religious zealots is a real laugh riot.  If anything Bibi was being condescending, not attempting to be funny.  He realizes he's dealing with idiots, a little slow on the uptake where Iran and nukes are concerned.  Sad thing is that when they admit they have a bomb there won't be a peep from any of you guys.  You'll probably even say they have the right and it's no problem.  What's that line from Ron White?  "YOU CAIN'T FIX STUPID"
Nuclear weapons are in the hands of statist zealots in Israel is a smiley face.   You don't seem to mind, you'll probably say they have the right and it's no problem, but the sane policy idea is to disarm the world of these weapons.  But I've never seen WHO pine for Iranian nukes.   The nukes Israel has are a far greater threat than the nukes that propagandists and their faithful flock think Iran wants.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#153    WHO U KIDDIN

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 07:54 AM

View Postand then, on 19 May 2013 - 03:53 AM, said:

Yeah...nuclear weapons in the hands of religious zealots is a real laugh riot.  If anything Bibi was being condescending, not attempting to be funny.  He realizes he's dealing with idiots, a little slow on the uptake where Iran and nukes are concerned.  Sad thing is that when they admit they have a bomb there won't be a peep from any of you guys.  You'll probably even say they have the right and it's no problem.  What's that line from Ron White?  "YOU CAIN'T FIX STUPID"

Bibi was not attempting to be funny? :innocent:
A lot of people around the world found his one-liners hilarious. :clap:

If anything he was being condescending? And that he realizes he’s dealing with idiots? :td:

Now that’s a preposterous statement for even you to make, how can you imply that a great egalitarian statesman like Bibi does not know how to treat the world’s goyim with respect? A person with his superb intellectual attributes knows the meaning of KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) that’s why he even personally went through all the trouble to hand-draw the bomb graphics that he displayed to the UN the day he performed, he especially wanted his fans to clearly understand his genius. :nw:

But being you ‘re a fan of Ron White's redneck humor, it’s perfectly understandable that's Bibi's comedy may be beyond your comprehension. :tu:


#154    and then

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 08:54 AM

View PostWHO U KIDDIN, on 19 May 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

Bibi was not attempting to be funny? :innocent:
A lot of people around the world found his one-liners hilarious. :clap:

If anything he was being condescending? And that he realizes he’s dealing with idiots? :td:

Now that’s a preposterous statement for even you to make, how can you imply that a great egalitarian statesman like Bibi does not know how to treat the world’s goyim with respect? A person with his superb intellectual attributes knows the meaning of KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) that’s why he even personally went through all the trouble to hand-draw the bomb graphics that he displayed to the UN the day he performed, he especially wanted his fans to clearly understand his genius. :nw:

But being you ‘re a fan of Ron White's redneck humor, it’s perfectly understandable that's Bibi's comedy may be beyond your comprehension. :tu:
He told another one you might be familiar with - maybe from personal experience...."I once got thrown out of a bar in NYC"  I notice you did not attend my implications of where an Iranian bomb leaves us.  

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#155    Erikl

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 04:51 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 19 May 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

If America was run by the same rules as the State Of Israel


Christians would enjoy a highly privilaged status.

Christians alone can confiscate the property of non-Christians.

Christians alone can carry firearms, non-Christians would be shot if found carrying a firearm.

Christians alone can buy or lease government property.

The homes of non-Christians can be forcibly entered without a search warrant, or dynamited, or sealed.

Non-Christians would be subject to arrest and incarceration for long periods without due process.

In past conquests of America, non-Christians could never become U.S. citizens or have the right to determine their own political future free from U.S. authority. Non-Christians that fled from their homes during these military conquests could never return to their homes and land.

Proselytizing by non-Christians would be punishable up to 5 years in prison.

A religious judge could order a husband to divorce his wife.

A religious judge could deny the divorce to a wronged wife.

A religious judge will permit a brother-in-law to keep a childless wife from remarrying.

Non-Christians can not marry Christians, if a Christian is married to a non-Christian outside of America, their bond will not be recognized by the religious Christian courts of America.

Jewish and other religious non-Christians have to celebrate their greatest religious days with prayer "without any manifestation of jubiliation."

The Christian state of America can legally interfere with centuries-old traditional historic rights, privileges enjoyed by the churches, and proper functioning of non-Christian religious institutions such as imposition of municipal and state taxes.

State policy of America would include assassinations, kidnapping, expulsions, detention without charges or trial, land confiscation, collective punishment, sanction torture, and practice espionage against its greatest allies and its principal benefactors.

Total bull****!

Woah.

I see now what you've been doing - you took the thread off-topic for about two-three pages with regular Israeli and Zionism bashing, then when you felt that you dirtied the thread enough for other members not to see all your demagogue and propaganda being refuted, you just renewed your Israel is apartheid lie once again! amazing! :wacko:

In Israel Jews and Arabs are both equal before the law, Israeli Palestinians enjoy full civil and political rights. Don't let the Yamato-Jenkings gang fool you.

Posted Image

"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#156    Erikl

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 04:58 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 18 May 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Baloney, the Palestinians are of the same western Semitic stock as spoken of in the Bible (namely the Amorites and Arameans) that arrived from northwestern Mesopotamia due to Indo-European and Hurrian expansion into their Mesopotamian and Anatolian homelands.

Jews of the Old Testament were admixture of western Semitic stock likewise also Palestinians.

Western Semites were the Amorites and Arameans who originated from Northwestern Mesopotamia, from the Upper Eurphrates river. Amorites inhabited the southwest parts of this region while the Arameans inhabited the north parts of this region.

Eastern Semites were the Akkadians and Assyrians from the Upper Tigris river

There was a series of large migrations to Palestine/Levant between the 3rd and 2nd Millenium. The earliest inhabitants were Ghassulian in the 4th Millenium BCE and many believe these were simply the very first wave of western Semites, proceeded by two more waves of large migrations into the Levant. The second wave is said to be the Amorites. While the Patriarch Abraham occurred during the third large migration which is said to be the Arameans.

See Deuteronomy 26:5, Genesis 14:13, Genesis 24:4, Genesis 25:20.

So in essence, the Palestinians do indeed quality as Arabicized western Semites because the local population preserved their Semitic lineage. So with that, the Palestinians actually have a greater claim to historically to Palestine than the Ashkenazi European Jews because they are just as the Hebrews and Jews of the Old Testament were... western Semites and no doubtly can trace their bloodlines to the Hebrews but despite successive waves of Hellenization, Christianization, and Islamization. The last of which Arabicized this local western Semitic population over the last 1,300 years.




Western Semites (aka Hebrews, Amorites, Arameans) never departed from the Levant. They were always there. They are the Palestinian Arabs.

Bullocks. You took few Historic facts and mish-mashed them completely to perpetuate a lie.

Palestinians might originate from other Middle Eastern people, but in no way are they the same people that lived there for thousands of years, and even if they might partially be descendant from them, so do the Middle Eastern Jews which now comprise 50% of the Israeli Jews.

There is no Zionist ethnicity, there are Jews, which are a distinguished people for at least 2700 years. Regardless of whether or not they ruled the land for the past 2000 years, they lived in the region which is now Israel for all that time as a distinguished group of people. Palestinians did not. Palestinians as an identity are only 80 years old, and are the direct result of European colonialism. The region was taken by the British after WW1 and before that was for 500 years part of the Ottoman (turkic, not Arab) Empire. Claiming that the Palestinians ruled the area is in fact a lie. There were Arabic-speaking Muslims living in all the region between Morocco and Iran. They didn't call themselves Palestinians nor did they call themselves Lebanese or Syrians or Iraqis. They identified themselves by the family and tribe they belong to. It's quite obvious, judging with what's going on in Syria nowadays, that they still see themselves in this way.

I am sorry to say this, but you are either complete ignorant in the subject, brainwashed, or simply a liar.

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"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#157    Erikl

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 05:01 PM

Quote

It doesn't matter diddly squat whether a certain county is 80% Amish and 20% non-Amish.  What matters is that Amish people aren't oppressing non-Amish people, and that non-Amish people aren't oppressing Amish people in any county of any population makeup,
As established before, over and over in this thread, the 80% Israeli Jews (aka the Amish of your analogy) do not oppress the 20% Israeli Palestinians (the non-Amish of your analogy). The Israeli Palestinians enjoy full human and civil rights in Israel.

Israel might has it's flaws, but the recent events in the region have proven that if anything it is a beacon of democracy and human rights in the current bloodbath called the Middle East.

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"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#158    GoSC

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:30 AM

View PostErikl, on 19 May 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Total bull****!

Woah.

I see now what you've been doing - you took the thread off-topic for about two-three pages with regular Israeli and Zionism bashing, then when you felt that you dirtied the thread enough for other members not to see all your demagogue and propaganda being refuted, you just renewed your Israel is apartheid lie once again! amazing! :wacko:

In Israel Jews and Arabs are both equal before the law, Israeli Palestinians enjoy full civil and political rights. Don't let the Yamato-Jenkings gang fool you.

No I even posted links to the US State Department in support of my argument.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#159    GoSC

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:44 AM

View PostErikl, on 19 May 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

Bullocks. You took few Historic facts and mish-mashed them completely to perpetuate a lie.

Palestinians might originate from other Middle Eastern people, but in no way are they the same people that lived there for thousands of years, and even if they might partially be descendant from them, so do the Middle Eastern Jews which now comprise 50% of the Israeli Jews.

There is no Zionist ethnicity, there are Jews, which are a distinguished people for at least 2700 years. Regardless of whether or not they ruled the land for the past 2000 years, they lived in the region which is now Israel for all that time as a distinguished group of people. Palestinians did not. Palestinians as an identity are only 80 years old, and are the direct result of European colonialism. The region was taken by the British after WW1 and before that was for 500 years part of the Ottoman (turkic, not Arab) Empire. Claiming that the Palestinians ruled the area is in fact a lie. There were Arabic-speaking Muslims living in all the region between Morocco and Iran. They didn't call themselves Palestinians nor did they call themselves Lebanese or Syrians or Iraqis. They identified themselves by the family and tribe they belong to. It's quite obvious, judging with what's going on in Syria nowadays, that they still see themselves in this way.

I am sorry to say this, but you are either complete ignorant in the subject, brainwashed, or simply a liar.

The Palestinians are western Semites that have lived in this region for 1,000s of years. The Biblical Jews were western Semites as are the current Palestinian Arabs are western Semites.

Posted Image

The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians



Email ThisBlogThis!Share to TwitterShare to FacebookBy Tomas Rees   on Tuesday, January 20, 2009  
The Times recently carried this unusual report on an Israeli Jew (Tsvi Misinai, a retired computer expert) who's hoping to prove that Palestinians are descended from Jews. Apparently, he thinks that proving this will help to stop the bloodshed. His idea is that modern Jews are descended from emigration in the first few centuries of the Christian era. The Jews who stayed put in Palestine converted to Islam, and became Palestinian Arabs. There's hope that genetic tests might be able to prove this.

Well, there is good news and bad news on that score.

Posted ImageThe good news is that the genetics of Arabs and Jews have been pretty extensively researched. The classic study dates to 2000, from a team lead by Michael Hammer of University of Arizona. They looked at Y-chromosome haplotypes - this is the genetic material passed from father to son down the generations.

What they revealed was that Arabs and Jews are essentially a single population, and that Palestinians are slap bang in the middle of the different Jewish populations (as shown in this figure).

Another team, lead by Almut Nebel at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, took a closer look in 2001. They found that Jewish lineages essentially bracket Muslim Kurds, but they were also very closely related to Palestinians. In fact, what their analysis suggested was that Palestinians were identical to Jews, but with a small mix of Arab genes - what you would expect if they were originally from the same stock, but that Palestinians had mixed a little with Arab immigrants. They conclude:

We propose that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews (Nebel et al. 2000). According to our working model, the more-recent migrations were mostly from the Arabian Peninsula...

So, as far as male lineage goes, the genetic story is very clear. Palestinians and Jews are virtually indistinguishable.

Women are a bit more tricky...
Up until last year, the matrilineal heritage of Jews also seemed pretty clear. Analysis of elements in mitochondrial DNA (which is passed from mother to daughter) seemed to show that Jewish populations around Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East were derived from at least 8 unrelated 'founding mothers'.

Where they came from wasn't clear, but the most likely explanation was that they were from local populations that bred with immigrant Jewish males. Their offspring became absorbed into the Jewish community.

In 2008, a more sophisticated analysis was published that made use of whole mitochondrial DNA sequences. They found no evidence for the genetic bottle necks that indicate founding mothers in the large Jewish populations. Instead, they found a complicated picture with a very diverse gene pool suggesting intermarriage both with local populations and other Jewish groups.

The overall conclusion is that the female Jewish line deviates a lot more from the Palestinian heritage than the male line, but the heritage is still there.

So that's the good news. Jews and Palestinian Arabs are blood brothers - although this close genetic relationship probably stems from pre-Judaic times, rather than any more recent conversion of Palestinian Jews to Islam.

And the bad news? Well, this basic story has been known for the best part of a decade now. But, perhaps unsurprisingly, it hasn't lead to the warring sides laying down their weapons and engaging in a group hug. This is a religious conflict, not a genetic one.

Mr Misinai is, sadly, on a hiding to nothing.

http://epiphenom.fie...f-jews-and.html

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#160    GoSC

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 01:04 AM

Jews Are The Genetic Brothers Of Palestinians, Syrians, And Lebanese


May 9, 2000 — If a common heritage conferred peace, then perhaps the long history of conflict in the Middle East would have been resolved years ago. For, according to a new scientific study, Jews are the genetic brothers of Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese, and they all share a common genetic lineage that stretches back thousands of years.



"Jews and Arabs are all really children of Abraham," says Harry Ostrer, M.D., Director of the Human Genetics Program at New York University School of Medicine, an author of the new study by an international team of researchers in the United States, Europe, and Israel. "And all have preserved their Middle Eastern genetic roots over 4,000 years," he says.

The researchers analyzed the Y chromosome, which is usually passed unchanged from father to son, of more than 1,000 men worldwide. Throughout human history, alterations have occurred in the sequence of chemical bases that make up the DNA in this so-called male chromosome, leaving variations that can be pinpointed with modern genetic techniques. Related populations carry the same specific variations. In this way, scientists can track descendants of large populations and determine their common ancestors.

Specific regions of the Y chromosome were analyzed in 1,371 men from 29 worldwide populations, including Jews and non-Jews from the Middle East, North Africa, sub-Saharan Africa, and Europe.

The study, published in the May 9 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that Jewish men shared a common set of genetic signatures with non-Jews from the Middle East, including Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese, and these signatures diverged significantly from non-Jewish men outside of this region. Consequently, Jews and Arabs share a common ancestor and are more closely related to one another than to non-Jews from other areas of the world.

The study also revealed that despite the complex history of Jewish migration in the Diaspora (the time since 556 B.C. when Jews migrated out of Palestine), Jewish communities have generally not intermixed with non-Jewish populations. If they had, then Jewish men from different regions of the world would not share the same genetic signatures in their Y chromosome.
"Because ancient Jewish law states that Jewish religious affiliation is assigned maternally, our study afforded the opportunity to assess the contribution of non-Jewish men to present-day Jewish genetic diversity," says Michael Hammer, Ph.D., from the University of Arizona, Tucson, who is the lead author of the new study. "It was surprising to see how significant the Middle Eastern genetic signal was in Jewish men from different communities in the Diaspora," he says.



The authors of this study are: Dr. Ostrer from NYU School of Medicine; Michael F. Hammer, Alan J. Redd, Elizabeth T. Wood, M. Roxane Bonner, Hamdi Jarjanazil, and Tanya Karafet from the University of Arizona, Tucson; Silvana Santachlara-Benerecetti, University of Pavia, Italy; Ariella Oppenheim, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel; Mark A. Jobling, University of Leicester, England; Trefor Jenkins, University of Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, South Africa; and Batsheva Bonne-Tamar, Tel Aviv University, Israel.

http://www.scienceda...00509003653.htm

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#161    Erikl

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 01:49 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 20 May 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

Jews Are The Genetic Brothers Of Palestinians, Syrians, And Lebanese



All of this is fine and dandy, but no one doubts that Palestinians are Middle Easterners.

I didn't doubt that Palestinians are Semitic people nor did I doubt that they are from the Middle East. It's quite obvious.

What I did say, and what you try so hard to perpetuate, is that the Palestinians didn't exist as any unique group of people in the region, nor did they see themselves as such, until about 80 years ago, as a result of British colonialism. If there is a nation born out of colonialism, is not "ze Zionistsss" as you try to portray it, but the Palestinians.

Ofcourse there were people living in the region when the first Zionist Jews came back. These people spoke Arabic and adhered mostly to Islam, and among them were also Christians and Jews. There were about 10,000 Jews living in what is now Israel. They also mostly spoke Arabic.


However, these Arabic speaking Muslims didn't call themselves Palestinians, they didn't define themselves as such, because Palestine as you know it today didn't exist. The entire region, since 630 all the way to 1918 was part of several Muslim empires. The only time in those 1300 years that it was anything remotely similar to independent state or kingdom was during the two centuries of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem.

From the 630s to 750 the Umayyad Caliphate rulled the region;

Posted Image

Then from the 750s to the 900s the Abbasid Caliphate;
Posted Image


Then from the 900s to 1099 the Fatimid Caliphate;

Posted Image


Then from 1099 to 1291 the Crusaders;

Then the Mamlukes;

Posted Image


Then the Seljuks;

Then the Ottomans all the way to 1918.
Here is the Ottoman district divisions of their empire. Take notice of the area which is now divided between Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria and the disputed territories (West Bank and Gaza). All of it is in one single district called "Damascus Eyalet". No Palestinian state or district.
Posted Image




As you can see, no Palestine and no Palestinian Arabs having any independence. The region was part of Islamic empires for 1300 years.

The Arab Muslims who lived in the area today were divided to tribes and families stretching all the way to regions that are now divided by Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Jordan and Iraq. They freely crossed this land without ever thinking that their tribesmen from Damascus is different than their tribesmen in Jerusalem.

Even the regional empires divided the land differently than today's' Arab states.

This is not ancient history, this was all relevant up until 70 years ago.

Jews, on the other hand, as well as other many non-Arabic speaking minorities in the region, were unique ethnic groups to the Middle East. They saw themselves as different people from the surrounding Muslim majority.

Being that Muslim subjects of these empires were unified under one authority encompassing thousands of kilometers at the time, and they did not have any uniqueness or and were not divided to different ethnic groups, just Muslim residents of a vast Muslim empire, just as Americans are now residents of America, even though they might have all sorts of different origins.
They also intermarried with Muslims from all over those vast Middle Eastern empires, hence why you have Palestinians with family names "Al-Misri" ("The Egyptian"), "Bushnak" ("Bosnian" in Arabic, meaning they came from Ottoman Bosnia), etc..

While some Palestinians obviously have Jewish, Samaritan or Canaanite roots, and even Crusader roots, many do not, and even if they did, they have no recollection of it what so ever and most certainly didn't view themselves as such, until few decades ago.

This is in complete opposition to many other ethnic groups in the region:
Copts have retained liturgical evidence and record for their Greek-Egyptian heritage;
Maronites have retained linguistic heritage from their Aramaic speaking ancestors;
Kurds and Berbers have different spoken languages than their Muslim Arab neighbors;
Jews and Samaritans have retained their religion and liturgical language (Hebrew) coming from their Israelite ancestors.

So the entire middle east or most of it was ruled by a successive number of Islamic empires, and there was never an independent state called Palestine nor were there ever a group of people identifying themselves as Palestinians until the 20th century.

Modern Palestine and the Palestinians as a nation are the direct result of colonialism.
Should the British and French decide to move the border, and say, make part of modern Lebanon or Syria to be part of British Palestine, then the people living there would have called themselves Palestinians today as well, not Lebanese or Syrians.

Btw, without noticing, you have actually refuted your own lie - you claimed Ashkenazi Jews are "colonialist Europeans", yet the article you've quote prove that they are indeed of middle eastern origin. And anyway, this is meaningless as 50% of Israeli Jews descent from Middle Eastern Jews, not European Jews, anyway.

Edited by Erikl, 20 May 2013 - 02:08 PM.

Posted Image

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#162    GoSC

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:32 AM

View PostErikl, on 20 May 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Btw, without noticing, you have actually refuted your own lie - you claimed Ashkenazi Jews are "colonialist Europeans", yet the article you've quote prove that they are indeed of middle eastern origin. And anyway, this is meaningless as 50% of Israeli Jews descent from Middle Eastern Jews, not European Jews, anyway.

Oh really... did you read this thread I posted Gene study settles debate over origin of European Jews

The competing “Khazarian hypothesis” considers Eastern European Jews to be the descendants of Khazars (supplementary note S1, Supplementary Material online). The Khazars were a confederation of Slavic, Scythian, Hunnic–Bulgar, Iranian, Alans, and Turkish tribes who formed in the central–northern Caucasus one of most powerful empires during the late Iron Age and converted to Judaism in the 8th century CE (figs. 1 and 2) (Polak 1951; Brook 2006; Sand 2009). The Khazarian, Armenian, and Georgian populations forged from this amalgamation of tribes (Polak 1951) were followed by relative isolation, differentiation, and genetic drift in situ (Balanovsky et al. 2011). Biblical and archeological records allude to active trade relationships between Proto-Judeans and Armenians in the late centuries BCE (Polak 1951; Finkelstein and Silberman 2002), that likely resulted in a small scale admixture between these populations and a Judean presence in the Caucasus. After their conversion to Judaism, the population structure of the Judeo–Khazars was further reshaped by multiple migrations of Jews from the Byzantine Empire and Caliphate to the Khazarian Empire (fig. 1). Following the collapse of their empire and the Black Death (1347–1348) the Judeo–Khazars fled westward (Baron 1993), settling in the rising Polish Kingdom and Hungary (Polak 1951) and eventually spreading to Central and Western Europe. The Khazarian hypothesis posits that European Jews are comprised of Caucasus, European, and Middle Eastern ancestries. Moreover, European Jewish communities are expected to be different from one another both in ancestry and genetic heterogeneity. The Khazarian hypothesis also offers two explanations for the genetic diversity in Caucasus groups first by the multiple migration waves to Khazaria during the 6th–10th centuries and second by the Judeo–Khazars who remained in the Caucasus.

Genetic studies attempting to infer the ancestry of European Jews yielded inconsistent results. Some studies pointed to the genetic similarity between European Jews and Caucasus populations like Adygei (Behar et al. 2003; Levy-Coffman 2005; Kopelman et al. 2009), whereas some pointed to the similarity to Middle Eastern populations such as Palestinians (Hammer et al. 2000; Nebel et al. 2000), and others pointed to the similarity to Southern European populations like Italians (Atzmon et al. 2010; Zoossmann-Diskin 2010). Most of these studies were done in the pregenome-wide era using uniparental markers and including different reference populations, which makes it difficult to compare their results. More recent studies employing whole genome data reported high genetic similarity of European Jews to Druze, Italian, and Middle Eastern populations (Atzmon et al. 2010; Behar et al. 2010).

Although both the Rhineland and Khazarian hypotheses depict a Judean ancestry and are not mutually exclusive, they are well distinguished, as Caucasus and Semitic populations are considered ethnically and linguistically distinct (Patai and Patai 1975; Wexler 1993; Balanovsky et al. 2011). Jews, according to either hypothesis, are an assortment of tribes who accepted Judaism, migrated elsewhere, and maintained their religion up to this date and are, therefore, expected to exhibit certain differences from their neighboring populations. Because both hypotheses posit that Eastern European Jews arrived at Eastern Europe roughly at the same time (13th and 15th centuries), we assumed that they experienced similar low and fixed admixture rates with the neighboring populations, estimated at 0.5% per generation over the past 50 generations (Ostrer 2001). These relatively recent admixtures have likely reshaped the population structure of all European Jews and increased the genetic distances from the Caucasus or Middle Eastern populations. Therefore, we do not expect to achieve perfect matching with the surrogate Khazarian and Judean populations but rather to estimate their relatedness.

http://gbe.oxfordjou...ent/5/1/61.full

See no contradictions, just that Palestinians are western Semites that have inhabited these lands since the Bronze Age (or the Biblical Age). They are the original peoples that have been arabicized by Islam expansionism and conquests. But they are essentially the same peoples. These people were forced to convert to Islam and FORCED to learn Arabic in order to read from and study from the Quran. Especially during the earliest Islamic dynasties.

This is what I mean when I say they were ARABICIZED! The Palestinians are western Semites!

Edited by B Jenkins, 22 May 2013 - 05:33 AM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#163    Erikl

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 01:30 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 22 May 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Oh really... did you read this thread I posted Gene study settles debate over origin of European Jews

The competing “Khazarian hypothesis” considers Eastern European Jews to be the descendants of Khazars (supplementary note S1, Supplementary Material online). The Khazars were a confederation of Slavic, Scythian, Hunnic–Bulgar, Iranian, Alans, and Turkish tribes who formed in the central–northern Caucasus one of most powerful empires during the late Iron Age and converted to Judaism in the 8th century CE (figs. 1 and 2) (Polak 1951; Brook 2006; Sand 2009). The Khazarian, Armenian, and Georgian populations forged from this amalgamation of tribes (Polak 1951) were followed by relative isolation, differentiation, and genetic drift in situ (Balanovsky et al. 2011). Biblical and archeological records allude to active trade relationships between Proto-Judeans and Armenians in the late centuries BCE (Polak 1951; Finkelstein and Silberman 2002), that likely resulted in a small scale admixture between these populations and a Judean presence in the Caucasus. After their conversion to Judaism, the population structure of the Judeo–Khazars was further reshaped by multiple migrations of Jews from the Byzantine Empire and Caliphate to the Khazarian Empire (fig. 1). Following the collapse of their empire and the Black Death (1347–1348) the Judeo–Khazars fled westward (Baron 1993), settling in the rising Polish Kingdom and Hungary (Polak 1951) and eventually spreading to Central and Western Europe. The Khazarian hypothesis posits that European Jews are comprised of Caucasus, European, and Middle Eastern ancestries. Moreover, European Jewish communities are expected to be different from one another both in ancestry and genetic heterogeneity. The Khazarian hypothesis also offers two explanations for the genetic diversity in Caucasus groups first by the multiple migration waves to Khazaria during the 6th–10th centuries and second by the Judeo–Khazars who remained in the Caucasus.

Genetic studies attempting to infer the ancestry of European Jews yielded inconsistent results. Some studies pointed to the genetic similarity between European Jews and Caucasus populations like Adygei (Behar et al. 2003; Levy-Coffman 2005; Kopelman et al. 2009), whereas some pointed to the similarity to Middle Eastern populations such as Palestinians (Hammer et al. 2000; Nebel et al. 2000), and others pointed to the similarity to Southern European populations like Italians (Atzmon et al. 2010; Zoossmann-Diskin 2010). Most of these studies were done in the pregenome-wide era using uniparental markers and including different reference populations, which makes it difficult to compare their results. More recent studies employing whole genome data reported high genetic similarity of European Jews to Druze, Italian, and Middle Eastern populations (Atzmon et al. 2010; Behar et al. 2010).

Although both the Rhineland and Khazarian hypotheses depict a Judean ancestry and are not mutually exclusive, they are well distinguished, as Caucasus and Semitic populations are considered ethnically and linguistically distinct (Patai and Patai 1975; Wexler 1993; Balanovsky et al. 2011). Jews, according to either hypothesis, are an assortment of tribes who accepted Judaism, migrated elsewhere, and maintained their religion up to this date and are, therefore, expected to exhibit certain differences from their neighboring populations. Because both hypotheses posit that Eastern European Jews arrived at Eastern Europe roughly at the same time (13th and 15th centuries), we assumed that they experienced similar low and fixed admixture rates with the neighboring populations, estimated at 0.5% per generation over the past 50 generations (Ostrer 2001). These relatively recent admixtures have likely reshaped the population structure of all European Jews and increased the genetic distances from the Caucasus or Middle Eastern populations. Therefore, we do not expect to achieve perfect matching with the surrogate Khazarian and Judean populations but rather to estimate their relatedness.

http://gbe.oxfordjou...ent/5/1/61.full

See no contradictions, just that Palestinians are western Semites that have inhabited these lands since the Bronze Age (or the Biblical Age). They are the original peoples that have been arabicized by Islam expansionism and conquests. But they are essentially the same peoples. These people were forced to convert to Islam and FORCED to learn Arabic in order to read from and study from the Quran. Especially during the earliest Islamic dynasties.

This is what I mean when I say they were ARABICIZED! The Palestinians are western Semites!


Your point being?

Let's leave for one second the fact that our entire argument is way off-topic, but what is your point? claiming that Palestinians are middle easterners? That Jews originate in the Middle East?

These are all well known fact.

What I said, however, is that Palestinians as a nation didn't exist in any meaningful way until 80 years ago, as a result of British and French colonialism.

Let's take for example modern Egyptians.

The original Egyptians of Pharaonic times never went away. None of the successive invaders of Egypt implemented a policy of ethnic displacement; even the Arab influx of the 7th century, strong enough to effect a linguistic change on the Egyptians, had the settlers absorbed in the population. And as opposed to many other locations in the Middle East that experienced waves of neglect and demographic changes, Egypt did not. Genetically speaking, therefore, the modern Egyptians are the heirs of the Pharaonic ones.

Does that genetic inheritance form a real link with the past? It doesn’t look like it at all. The modern Egyptians are linguistically, religiously and culturally Arab; they have no sentiments toward the rich heritage they have on their soil, and with the recent intensification of Islamic fervor the artifacts of the Pharaonic times are more and more imperiled. (I was going to write that those artifacts in British museums were the only safe ones, but that is no longer true for the United Kingdom either.)

The only visible link to the past remaining in Egypt is the Coptic language, the liturgical language used by the Copts in their Christian worship. It is a descendant of the ancient Egyptian language.

The modern-day Muslim Egyptian is Egyptian by the happenstance of being born in Egypt. Culturally an Arab, and now increasingly seeing himself as part of the Muslim worldwide collective first, his genetic relation to the ancients has no significance. The conclusion is that genetics alone has little to contribute to national definition.

So, when we get to the local Arabic population within the Land of Israel a.k.a. Palestine, what does genetics give us? The myth of a unified brown-skinned “Palestinian people” is just that: a myth. Because the Land of Israel is situated at the passage between Asia and Africa, it has known countless invasions, migrations and population displacements, as opposed to Egypt. I alone have shown you about  6 different empires taking over it in just few centuries. Hence, the genetic diversity of the local Arabs, with nearly all colors of skin, hair and eyes found. Genetics has even less of a chance of being significant than for the Egyptians.

The Arabs in Palestine had not thought of Palestine as a separate entity until "Palestine" was carved out of the rest of the Middle East by Britain and France in 1920, naming the entity they have created as "Palestine" and all it's residents - Muslims, Christians and Jews - Palestinians.

The only group of people in the region that have maintained cultural uniqueness to the land were Jews (and Samaritans, which number few hundreds). The Canaanites, the Edomites and all other CULTURAL indigenous people to that piece of land have all been lost to history.

Even if we could somehow accept a lineal descent from the Canaanites and lost Jews, the fact is the Arabs residing in the newly created Palestine are culturally Arab, at most Levantine. The language on their shop signs is Arabic like everywhere else in the Arab world; their music is Arab music; the costumes they parade in “Palestine Heritage Festivals” are not particular to Palestine, but Levantine in general, meaning they’re found in Lebanon, Syria and the south of Turkey as well. Their claim to be “indigenous Palestinians” has no objective basis to rely upon. But, it serves as a way to argue against Jewish rights to the land, so it's being used.

And what about the Jews?
Well, Jews have kept several CULTURAL links to the region, regardless of genetics (which also seem to support their ties to the middle east). The Jews are a well documented group of people with well acknowledged ties to the region, not only by them and not only by the bible (which in itself can be refuted as mythology), but by real historical documents for at least 3108 years, since the first time the name "Israel" was shown in Egyptian hieroglyphs.
Jews, for all that it counts, culturally came from Judea.

Linguistically, even as a liturgical language, Jews have kept their Canaanite language alive (Hebrew is a West Semitic Canaanite language), and have managed to revive it as a spoken language. Even while using other, non-Hebrew languages, they've kept using the Hebrew script to write those languages. Hebrew came from the Land of Israel, NOT the Arab peninsula, as opposed to the current language of the Arabs.

The Hebrew Calendar, which was and used by Jews all around the world, and it's holidays, reflect the seasons of the land of Israel, not Khazaria or Russia or Yemen. Jews all around the world celebrate their holidays, which stem from ancient agricultural seasonal changes, according to seasons in Israel.

And there are more. Those are real things, unlike the irrelevant fact of genetics, whose only effect in the real world is on the bodies of the individuals; much less the total fictions used to artificially connect the local Arab settlers to this land, the land they had never accorded significance to until recent times.

P.S
In spite of all that has been said so far, Arabs do live in the area TODAY, hence they also have rights to the land, just as Jews do, regardless of how many generations they have been living here or what culture they are.
And indeed, the Arabs that are citizens of Israel enjoy full rights as Israelis.
The Arabs that want their own state in the region can build their own state, and most Israelis recognize Arab rights to the land as well, but only as long as the Arabs will finally recognize Jewish rights to the land as well, which they fail to do so. People like you actually fuel their refusal to accept Jews in the region.

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#164    and then

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 04:28 PM


"The Arabs that want their own state in the region can build their own state, and most Israelis recognize Arab rights to the land as well, but only as long as the Arabs will finally recognize Jewish rights to the land as well, which they fail to do so. People like you actually fuel their refusal to accept Jews in the region. "

This is of course the nut of the problem and supporters of the Palestinians simply will not admit it.  Truth is they only harm the people they ostensibly support and I firmly believe it is because they are more interested in punishing Jews than helping Palestinians - jmo.


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#165    third_eye

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:45 PM

View Postand then, on 22 May 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:


"The Arabs that want their own state in the region can build their own state, and most Israelis recognize Arab rights to the land as well, but only as long as the Arabs will finally recognize Jewish rights to the land as well, which they fail to do so. People like you actually fuel their refusal to accept Jews in the region. "
This is of course the nut of the problem and supporters of the Palestinians simply will not admit it.  Truth is they only harm the people they ostensibly support and I firmly believe it is because they are more interested in punishing Jews than helping Palestinians - jmo.


your link won't work ... unless that's what you intended ... just a heads up

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