Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * - - 6 votes

Is Israel an Apartheid state?


  • Please log in to reply
319 replies to this topic

#226    third_eye

third_eye

    _ M Ġ ń Ř Ī Ş_

  • Member
  • 7,903 posts
  • Joined:06 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Malaysia

  • "Legio nomen mihi est, quia multi sumus"

    God has no religion ~ Mahatma Gandhi

Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:11 PM

View Postand then, on 09 June 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

That part is simple, third... I just accept the fact that I am a creation and not the Creator.  My reference for understanding Him is His word in the scripture and He "proves" His existence by prophecy.  Obviously you do not believe and I'm okay with that - everyone has the choice and some simply cannot get past proof to faith.  The mistake a lot of non-believers make though, is to assume that believers rabidly agree with everything that is happening.  There is much in the word and the world that I cannot understand and from my limited moral outlook I cannot approve of but I understand that I...AM...limited.  He isn't.

You not the first I've met that sees things that way ... and believes it to be so ... but a fair and friendly warning ... you don;t want to get into this bit with my sis ... she's gonna throw down the wrath and glory of Mother Mary on you so vicious I think we won't have time for a beer ... :lol:

~cheers

.

~

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer

~


#227    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 16 June 2013 - 08:01 PM

View Postand then, on 09 June 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

That part is simple, third... I just accept the fact that I am a creation and not the Creator.  My reference for understanding Him is His word in the scripture and He "proves" His existence by prophecy.  Obviously you do not believe and I'm okay with that - everyone has the choice and some simply cannot get past proof to faith.  The mistake a lot of non-believers make though, is to assume that believers rabidly agree with everything that is happening.  There is much in the word and the world that I cannot understand and from my limited moral outlook I cannot approve of but I understand that I...AM...limited.  He isn't.

I place my faith in the good will of God. I can not accept a doctrine that insists Christ will  come again once the Jews establish a state, gathered all the Jews in Israel, and built a third temple. Upon which the world ends and practically all the Jews are killed at Armageddon. The few Jewish survivors would then convert to Christianity.

Yay, Christ can be equated to Hitler in his grand designs for the Jewish Aliyah and Christian Zionists take on Christian eschatology.

Christian Zionism is so blatantly anti-semitic and hypocritical it appalls me. I believe it is downright human ignorance.

Edited by B Jenkins, 16 June 2013 - 08:02 PM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#228    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 13,957 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 16 June 2013 - 08:47 PM

No doubt ANY doctrine with which you do not approve can be counted ignorance BJ.  But my point that you referenced is valid.  Israel IS IN THE LAND.  They are not going to be easily pushed out of it again regardless whether every cent of US aid were stopped tomorrow.  You should really ponder this obsession you seem to have with convincing people that Israel needs destroying.  And save the lame denials.  If it happened tomorrow you'd be cheering.  What was that you said about "ignorance"?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#229    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,859 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 16 June 2013 - 10:42 PM

View Postand then, on 16 June 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

No doubt ANY doctrine with which you do not approve can be counted ignorance BJ.  But my point that you referenced is valid.  Israel IS IN THE LAND.  They are not going to be easily pushed out of it again regardless whether every cent of US aid were stopped tomorrow.  You should really ponder this obsession you seem to have with convincing people that Israel needs destroying.  And save the lame denials.  If it happened tomorrow you'd be cheering.  What was that you said about "ignorance"?
I've never seen him try to convince people that Israel needs destroying.   Can you provide some quotes to support your claim?   The regime ruling Israel needs to change and that's true of more regimes than not.   This Israel-Palestine debate includes disagreement over governments, not nations.   It's accurate to state that your obsession is defending the Israeli government, while his is making the point that the Zionist regime should be replaced.  Reforming Zionist policy will be good for Israel, the region, the "war on terror" and the world.   Hardly "destruction".

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#230    third_eye

third_eye

    _ M Ġ ń Ř Ī Ş_

  • Member
  • 7,903 posts
  • Joined:06 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Malaysia

  • "Legio nomen mihi est, quia multi sumus"

    God has no religion ~ Mahatma Gandhi

Posted 16 June 2013 - 11:31 PM

everybody now ....

it's fun to go to the ...

Posted Image


hmmm ... I wonder if JC accepts early membership dues ....

~

~

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer

~


#231    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 13,957 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:08 AM

View PostYamato, on 16 June 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

I've never seen him try to convince people that Israel needs destroying.   Can you provide some quotes to support your claim?   The regime ruling Israel needs to change and that's true of more regimes than not.   This Israel-Palestine debate includes disagreement over governments, not nations.   It's accurate to state that your obsession is defending the Israeli government, while his is making the point that the Zionist regime should be replaced.  Reforming Zionist policy will be good for Israel, the region, the "war on terror" and the world.   Hardly "destruction".
Yes, Yam, we all know that only peaceful removal of the Israeli government is what BJ wants.  It's easy enough to say but it refuses to admit the real consequences of the act of removing the safeguards that keep Israel secure.  He and you as well, either do not understand (doubtful) or do not care what the consequences would be if the IDF was forced to remove from the Jordan Valley and the Golan.  It is easy to SAY that a process will work, but when the rockets begin to fall on Ben Gurion and the Knesset...will you then admit being wrong and demand a price of the Palestinians?  Or will equivocation be the order of the day?  How many times must they give ground and have it used as a base to kill them before someone at least admits that they simply do not care what happens to Israel?  The state of Israel is not a nation of hostages you know... apparently the Zionist government you and BJ abhor is mostly supported by the majority of Jews living there.  I would rather that I'd NEVER even heard the name Barack Obama but the majority of my fellow citizens feel differently so I make the best of a horrid situation.  Maybe Israelis feel the same?  Or maybe they genuinely support the idea that the Zionists are right and that if they do not stand to protect the survival of Jews then NO ONE WILL.

ETA  as to the point of supporting the claim with quotes from him.... I cannot present what he has never had the integrity to spell out.  But it would take a truly dense or legalistic mind to miss his intent.  His or your's - or a few others here.  I say again, it is the right of everyone here to hold an opinion about this controversy.  I state my position loudly and openly and do not play the edges acting as if I am impartial.  If I say I am all for a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as it's capital yet I want Palestinians to have no rights, no government I don't approve of and want to make them meet a list of impossible requirements prior to having their state then what is the point?  This is what many here at UM say is required of Israel before it can be considered a legitimate state.  And the greatest joke of all is that those here are being generous compared to the real designs of the Palestinians and the Arab states that surround Israel.  Even what you ask for is unacceptable to them.  They want ALL THE LAND.

Edited by and then, 17 June 2013 - 01:15 AM.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#232    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 17 June 2013 - 02:10 AM

View Postand then, on 16 June 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

No doubt ANY doctrine with which you do not approve can be counted ignorance BJ.  But my point that you referenced is valid.  Israel IS IN THE LAND.  They are not going to be easily pushed out of it again regardless whether every cent of US aid were stopped tomorrow.  You should really ponder this obsession you seem to have with convincing people that Israel needs destroying.  And save the lame denials.  If it happened tomorrow you'd be cheering.  What was that you said about "ignorance"?

Just to jump back to this Biblical prophecy, what entails the Jewish Aliyah (regathering), is not Jewish obedience during its diaspora?

But according to Christian Zionism, the Jewish Aliyah is going to entail not only a second holocaust but also the end of the world as we know it.

Where in the Bible does it ever make this claim?

If Christian Zionism is the Gospel truth, what incentive does the Jewish Aliyah hold for the Jews if it is only going to result in their ULTIMATE FINAL destruction.

Here is piece from The Passionate Attachment:

Quote

The Illegality Of Israel's Conduct In The Occupied Areas

Although disputed by the Israelis and their American protagonists, there is little doubt that Israel's settlements program and other aspects of its conduct in the Occupied Territories violate international law.

Israel behaves as though it had acquired sovereignty over the territories, but in fact, under established international law, all that Israel achieved by military conquest (which in turn has accounted for more than half the territory it now governs) was the status of "belligerent occupant". A belligerent occupant possesses only a temporary and de facto authority to protect its security interests, and it is subject to various substantive limitations designed to protect the inhabitants.

We make this point to emphasize Israel's dubious status in the Occupied Territories and the conditions which treaties and statutory law have now imposed on it. The fact that under such law Israel is merely a "belligerent occupant" and therefore subject to severe limitations is wholly rejected in action if not in theory by the Israeli government. In fact, at the time of the passage of Resolution 242, the Israeli negotiator Abba Eban dismissed with scorn that provision of the preamble to the resolution which reaffirms the proposition that "the acquisition of territory by force is inadmissible, in accordance with the United Nations Charter, the principles of international law, and relevent Security Council resolutions."

The relevent treaties and conventions are the Hague Convention IV adopted in 1907, which the Israeli Supreme Court held binding on the State of Israel in the so-called "Elon Moreh" decision in 1979, and Geneva Convention IV, one of four Conventions adopted in 1949 to ensure that abuses practiced by the Axis powers could not be legally repeated. The Fourth Geneva Convention, "Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War," puts responsibility for its enforcement on all of the signatories (including the United States) by the following language:

The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances.


The provision "to respect" means to abide by a Convention, the provision "to ensure respect," added in 1949, means that if one state is in violation, others are also in violation unless they take energetic measures to compel the erriing state to comply. Consequently, if Israel violates the Convention, other signatory states are accessories after the fact, unless they stop such practices. Although the United States has declared many Israeli practices unlawful or a violation of Palestinian human rights, it has utterly neglected its duty to stop these criminal acts or to allow the Security Council to do so.

The most directly pertinent violations by Israel of the Fourth Geneva Convention fall into the following catagories.

Pgs. 182-184

Then the author goes on to list and descibe these violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention (note I am only going to list the violations sans the author's description):

Quote

Implanting of settlements in the occupied territories.

Destruction of private property and humiliation of the residents.

Interference with religious rights.

Attacks on hospitals and hospital personnel.

Physical violence against protected persons.

Collective and guilt-by-association punishments.

Unjustifiable destruction of private property.

Seizure and plunder of private property.

Unlawful tax collections.

Unlawful deportations.

Closing of schools in the occupied areas.

Deprivation of procedural and substantive due process of law.

Commission of aggressive annexations.

Specification of grave breaches.



Pgs 184-187

And the author finishes this part of the book with this:

Quote

The horrible suffering imposed by the Nazis particularly on the Jewish people, their deportations from their homes, the seizure of their property without compensation, their enslavement, maltreatment, and slaughter, ought to have inspired the Israelis to make a particularly careful effort to observe these rules. Unhappily, current Israeli authorities now appear to be repeating most of the abuses the Geneva Convention were intended to prevent.

Pg 187.

I am not about the destruction of Israel but rather a change in the government and the correction of a "Jewish Democracy" into a multicultural democracy, a truly Western democracy. And it will take America to lower its chin and stiffen its upperlip and never to take up a passive stance against Israel and its violations of international law. The Zionist dream of a Jewish utopia and a (Jewish) "city on a hill" has failed.

Edited by B Jenkins, 17 June 2013 - 02:14 AM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#233    Zaphod222

Zaphod222

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,594 posts
  • Joined:05 Sep 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo

  • When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers.
    (Oscar Wilde)

Posted 17 June 2013 - 02:17 AM

View PostB Jenkins, on 17 June 2013 - 02:10 AM, said:

I am not about the destruction of Israel but rather a change in the government and the correction of a "Jewish Democracy" into a multicultural democracy, a truly Western democracy.

That is what Israel IS, unlike the islamist regimes surrounding it.

In contrast to Israel, Hamas-run Gazah is an apartheid regime. Iran is an apartheid regime. Egypt under the Muslim Brothers is turning into an apartheid regime. The Syria that the Muslim Brothers/Al Quaeda "freedom fighters" will create is an apartheid regime. Saudi Arabia (the great supporter of the Syrian rebels) is an apartheid regime. In fact, all Shariah countries are apartheid regimes.

And you can bet your behind that a muslim-majority "one state solution" of the type that the PLO imagines would be an apartheid regime, where a male muslim is always priviliged versus non-males and non-muslims.

Chew on that, before parrotting your talking points again.

Edited by Zaphod222, 17 June 2013 - 02:19 AM.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#234    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 17 June 2013 - 02:49 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 17 June 2013 - 02:17 AM, said:

That is what Israel IS, unlike the islamist regimes surrounding it.

In contrast to Israel, Hamas-run Gazah is an apartheid regime. Iran is an apartheid regime. Egypt under the Muslim Brothers is turning into an apartheid regime. The Syria that the Muslim Brothers/Al Quaeda "freedom fighters" will create is an apartheid regime. Saudi Arabia (the great supporter of the Syrian rebels) is an apartheid regime. In fact, all Shariah countries are apartheid regimes.

And you can bet your behind that a muslim-majority "one state solution" of the type that the PLO imagines would be an apartheid regime, where a male muslim is always priviliged versus non-males and non-muslims.

Chew on that, before parrotting your talking points again.

No, I agree in part with your assessment on the Islamic regimes under Shariah law in the region. But Israel is not a Western democracy, it is a Jewish State and an ostensible democracy.

Edited by B Jenkins, 17 June 2013 - 02:54 AM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#235    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 13,957 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:12 AM

View PostB Jenkins, on 17 June 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:

No, I agree in part with your assessment on the Islamic regimes under Shariah law in the region. But Israel is not a Western democracy, it is a Jewish State and an ostensible democracy.
Your solution leaves Israel as the 23rd Arab state.  It isn't ever going to happen.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#236    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,859 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 17 June 2013 - 06:44 AM

Quote

Yes, Yam, we all know that only peaceful removal of the Israeli government is what BJ wants.  It's easy enough to say but it refuses to admit the real consequences of the act of removing the safeguards that keep Israel secure.  He and you as well, either do not understand (doubtful) or do not care what the consequences would be if the IDF was forced to remove from the Jordan Valley and the Golan.
I've never suggested the IDF be forced out of the Golan Heights so where do you figure that I don't care about that?   Removed from the Jordan Valley?   So Israel is under threat of invasion from Jordan now?   Where do you get this stuff from?   If Israel is worried about whatever it's worried about from the east it should be on its own eastern border not someone else's.

If Zionist Israel didn't try so hard to redefine the definition of Jewish and clusterfudge them all into a tiny strip of land I'm sure they'd be a lot more spread out in the world and living in any number of free countries able to practice their religion in peace and promote their ethnic gene pool reproduction techniques as they please.  As for these bizarre ethnic and religious and cultural wars that you describe with so many words because Christians-for-Israel demand that millions of Jews must burn in the furnace of Armageddon - I have no interest in entertaining.

Quote

ETA  as to the point of supporting the claim with quotes from him.... I cannot present what he has never had the integrity to spell out.
Of course you can't.  That's why I asked.

Quote

Even what you ask for is unacceptable to them.  They want ALL THE LAND.
Actually, polls have been taken about what they really want.  You ignore the evidence and just make up your own stories.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#237    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 13,957 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:55 PM

View PostYamato, on 17 June 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

I've never suggested the IDF be forced out of the Golan Heights so where do you figure that I don't care about that?   Removed from the Jordan Valley?   So Israel is under threat of invasion from Jordan now?   Where do you get this stuff from?   If Israel is worried about whatever it's worried about from the east it should be on its own eastern border not someone else's.

If Zionist Israel didn't try so hard to redefine the definition of Jewish and clusterfudge them all into a tiny strip of land I'm sure they'd be a lot more spread out in the world and living in any number of free countries able to practice their religion in peace and promote their ethnic gene pool reproduction techniques as they please.  As for these bizarre ethnic and religious and cultural wars that you describe with so many words because Christians-for-Israel demand that millions of Jews must burn in the furnace of Armageddon - I have no interest in entertaining.


Of course you can't.  That's why I asked.


Actually, polls have been taken about what they really want.  You ignore the evidence and just make up your own stories.
Were those polls in English or Arabic ?  I only ask because their leaders have a funny way of translating between the two.   Yes is no...up is down... that kind of thing.

Edited by and then, 17 June 2013 - 05:55 PM.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#238    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,859 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 17 June 2013 - 07:07 PM

View Postand then, on 17 June 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

Were those polls in English or Arabic ?  I only ask because their leaders have a funny way of translating between the two.   Yes is no...up is down... that kind of thing.
What evidence do you have for this story?   You saw those polls.  You participated in those threads.   Amnesia again, i from 1 to n.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#239    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 13,957 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:15 AM

View PostYamato, on 17 June 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

What evidence do you have for this story?   You saw those polls.  You participated in those threads.   Amnesia again, i from 1 to n.
I'm not digging across MEMRI or AlJazeera for you Yam.  You are unaware, I suppose, of Arafat and Abbas routinely giving one speech in English and another for the "home crowd" in Arabic on the same topic and the two being diametrically opposed?  The polls you speak of WHATEVER they may have been about, do not disprove the lying of the Islamic crowd about their intentions in the M.E.  Or is that their right in your opinion?  Ends justifies the means and Israel is owed everything they can bring to bear against them..that kind of where we are here?  
As for your constant harping about my veracity or believe-ability  here's a clue - I DON'T CARE.  If anyone here at UM doubts me enough to discredit what I say and believe then so be it.  This isn't a court room.  And just for the record, I ROUTINELY admit my mistakes - have no problem with doing so.  I'm the first to admit I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer.  Try it sometime - it's very liberating.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#240    Zaphod222

Zaphod222

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,594 posts
  • Joined:05 Sep 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo

  • When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers.
    (Oscar Wilde)

Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:54 AM

View PostB Jenkins, on 07 May 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

The intent was never anti-Israel but to present images of Israel that most Americans and Europeans never have an opportunity to see on their televisions. It was an opportunity to present another side. The duly lollygagging of the IDF and Border Police to the active participation believe you me when that happens in the States it makes news around the world. My apologies, there was no anti-Israel intent.

Patently nonsensical claim. Check your local news coverage: Muslim Arab violence is hardly ever mentioned (like the ongoing rocket attacks from Gazah into Israel). But the moment Israel responds, it is reported as an "attack", and the reason for the response is only mentioned as a by-note, if at all. That goes for all the channels of your TV alphabet soup. So, precisely the opposite of your claim is true.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users