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Is Israel an Apartheid state?


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#241    Zaphod222

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:57 AM

View PostB Jenkins, on 17 June 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:

No, I agree in part with your assessment on the Islamic regimes under Shariah law in the region. But Israel is not a Western democracy, it is a Jewish State and an ostensible democracy.

Israel (as the only country in the region) has free elections, respects human rights, and gives equal treatment to its citizens under the law to all its citizens. That to me sounds like the textbook definition of a Western democracy; where exactly do you disagree with that?

And before you bring it up, the West Bank is not Israel proper, it is a special situation. and pontificating about possible solutions for it would be an entirely different thread.

Edited by Zaphod222, 18 June 2013 - 04:59 AM.

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#242    Yamato

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 05:17 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 18 June 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

Israel (as the only country in the region) has free elections, respects human rights, and gives equal treatment to its citizens under the law to all its citizens. That to me sounds like the textbook definition of a Western democracy; where exactly do you disagree with that?

And before you bring it up, the West Bank is not Israel proper, it is a special situation. and pontificating about possible solutions for it would be an entirely different thread.
I would hope he disagrees with all three statements.   That special situation is a human situation, so no respect for human rights there.   You can't be a state for a single ethnic group or religion and give equal rights to people who aren't of that ethnic group or religion.  The examples of this have been provided ad nauseum so I won't bother repeating it again; and homework is suggested.   Israel isn't the only state in the Middle East to have free elections so that doesn't distinguish it.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#243    Br Cornelius

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 12:15 PM

All talk of Israel not been an Apartheid state must be considered in the light of the fact that it occupies substantial foreign territory over which it imposes a different set of laws and rights to those offered to its own citizens. It allows those occupied citizens access to Israel for the purposes of work under a strictly limited set of rights. The Citizens of these occupied zones have no say in the rules under which they are administered, and no access to what could be considered a fair and impartial judicary. They are subject to summery arrest and imprisonment without access to the details of the charges and are routinely subjected to torture under interrogation.
This is directly comparable to the way in which the south African government administered the Townships which were nominally independent states under South African military control.

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#244    and then

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 02:48 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 19 June 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

All talk of Israel not been an Apartheid state must be considered in the light of the fact that it occupies substantial foreign territory over which it imposes a different set of laws and rights to those offered to its own citizens. It allows those occupied citizens access to Israel for the purposes of work under a strictly limited set of rights. The Citizens of these occupied zones have no say in the rules under which they are administered, and no access to what could be considered a fair and impartial judicary. They are subject to summery arrest and imprisonment without access to the details of the charges and are routinely subjected to torture under interrogation.
This is directly comparable to the way in which the south African government administered the Townships which were nominally independent states under South African military control.

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And this entire situation could be alleviated if the Palestinians were willing to give up the right to all of Jerusalem and the right to destroy the Jewish state with millions of "refugees" in a right of return scheme.  An answer could be found except there are too many vested interests working against it from both sides.  Even with those in play I believe Israel would eventually be forced into an agreement IF the Palestinians gave on those two issues.  I think that minor land swaps would be secondary in concern.  Israel's leaders KNOW that a Palestinian state is essential for Israel to survive.  So do the Palestinians.  But the Palestinians seem fully willing to let time and demographics destroy the state of Israel.  There will be a war that settles this issue before that happens.

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  for what could be, the darkest age...

#245    Yamato

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:25 PM

View Postand then, on 19 June 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

And this entire situation could be alleviated if the Palestinians were willing to give up the right to all of Jerusalem and the right to destroy the Jewish state with millions of "refugees" in a right of return scheme.  An answer could be found except there are too many vested interests working against it from both sides.  Even with those in play I believe Israel would eventually be forced into an agreement IF the Palestinians gave on those two issues.  I think that minor land swaps would be secondary in concern.  Israel's leaders KNOW that a Palestinian state is essential for Israel to survive.  So do the Palestinians.  But the Palestinians seem fully willing to let time and demographics destroy the state of Israel.  There will be a war that settles this issue before that happens.
Israel's leaders are doing everything to ensure a Palestinian state is impossible.   Look at a map already.

Palestinians are living in perpetual oppression by the state of Israel in the worst example of tyranny on the planet.   Anyone who supports that is no lover of liberty.   There is no excuse.  I don't care what your domestic ideas are.  You fail that bad when it's not your own self interests on the chopping block and you fail the acid test.   Freedom is good enough for everyone.  I suggest the US and Israeli government get out of peoples' ways and let them have it.  Any state that needs terrorism, apartheid, sieges, bigotry and foreign welfare to keep itself propped up is a failure of a state.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#246    and then

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 07:00 PM

View PostYamato, on 20 June 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

Israel's leaders are doing everything to ensure a Palestinian state is impossible.   Look at a map already.

Palestinians are living in perpetual oppression by the state of Israel in the worst example of tyranny on the planet.   Anyone who supports that is no lover of liberty.   There is no excuse.  I don't care what your domestic ideas are.  You fail that bad when it's not your own self interests on the chopping block and you fail the acid test.   Freedom is good enough for everyone.  I suggest the US and Israeli government get out of peoples' ways and let them have it.  Any state that needs terrorism, apartheid, sieges, bigotry and foreign welfare to keep itself propped up is a failure of a state.
And all those things happen in a vacuum, right?  There is no cause that justifies any of it in your estimation, correct?  Whatever Yam.

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#247    Yamato

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:12 PM

"Doesn't happen in a vacuum" is just rhetorical fluff that can be used to excuse anything.

Oppression of innocent populations is the worst problem there is.  No lesser problem justifies it.   Israeli hypocrisy certainly doesn't justify it.  

Anyone who supports collective punishment is the greatest proponent of tyranny I've ever seen.   There are better uses for American taxpayer wealth than propping up tyranny, such as eradicating it wherever it rears its ugly head.   The opportunity cost of paying for Israel is immense.  We have the power to tremendous good in the world, but we blow it on aiding terrorists.

Back before all this Zionist grease slathered through our media, when they called Zionist behavior what it was:

Posted Image

Well, there were people there other than Palestinians!  Now every time Zionists target a school, hospital, police station, hotel or neighborhood, it's just Palestinians.  What's the big deal.

It should have been obvious that rewarding terrorists with their own state was a bad idea and just look at the results.   Propping up this man-made disaster for another day is nothing I deserve to be responsible for paying for.  You should be free to spend your money on what you want, I should be free to spend mine on what I want.   There is no authority for the US government to subsidize terrorist regimes in the world.   That includes Israel, Egypt, Palestine, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia.  

If security is the excuse, welcome international peacekeepers.  If the US opened up its nuclear silos and was willing to risk World War 3 with the Soviet Union over Soviet intervention in Israel's wars, it should also be able to scrounge up an international coalition of security forces to end Zionism's limp excuse for terrorism overnight.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#248    and then

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 09:15 PM

What you so casually call "collective punishment"  I fully support  because it stands in the way of people who otherwise would butcher Israeli civilians as easily as they would sheep.  End of discussion.

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#249    Br Cornelius

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:19 PM

The is the chicken and there is the egg, but in this case the occupation came first.
Occupied people have a right to resist their occupier under international law. Its just to bad that the USA has made the UN an ineffective vehicle for intervention to punish the crimes of Israel against an occupied people.

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#250    Yamato

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 11:00 PM

View Postand then, on 20 June 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

What you so casually call "collective punishment"  I fully support  because it stands in the way of people who otherwise would butcher Israeli civilians as easily as they would sheep.  End of discussion.
All I get for delivering the principle any real American should be able to accept is another tyrannical Zionist garbage spew.    If people hate being oppressed and fight back, maybe they should.   Not everyone is going to be a coward in the face of your favorite terrorists. Get over it.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#251    GoSC

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:28 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 18 June 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

Israel (as the only country in the region) has free elections, respects human rights, and gives equal treatment to its citizens under the law to all its citizens. That to me sounds like the textbook definition of a Western democracy; where exactly do you disagree with that?

And before you bring it up, the West Bank is not Israel proper, it is a special situation. and pontificating about possible solutions for it would be an entirely different thread.

You are truly delusional or highly naive. Israel discriminates against its Arab minority.

For instance, Arabs own only 7% of land in Israel and the other 93% is owned by the Jewish Land Trust. The trust land is solely for the benefit of the Jews. In other words, this 93% of the Israeli belongs to the Jews and only the Jews. The Israeli Arabs can not have a single percentage of this land for their ownership. The State Of Israel is called a Jewish democracy. It has a Jewish anthem and it has a Jewish flag with a Jewish symbol. The Ministry of Education prohibits the Nakba to be taught in Israeli Arab schools and has banned "Nakba" from Israeli Arab textbooks. Israel's Ministry of Education exerts severe supervision over the Arab educational system and controls its curriculum, budget and appointments.

In fact, Jews and Arabs DO NOT ATTEND THE SAME SCHOOLS OR CLASSROOMS. They have segrated streets and townships. Where Israeli Arabs can not legally become residents. The Arabs face all kinds of institutionalized discrimination.

In fact Israeli cabinet recently are trying a push a new law that forces all non-Jew citizens to SIGN an oath of allegiance to Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state" in other words, this new pledge would require future citizens declare their loyalty to an Zionist ideology, one intended to exclude Palestinians.

What about Israel's immigration law? Any Jew can immigrate to Israel yet only Arabs in East Jerusalem can apply for citizenship. Let's remember those hundreds of thousands of Palestinians that were expelled in 1947-48 did not participate in the fighting and were the indigeneous peoples. However, they are denied the right of the return.

The whole reason for their expulsion was to first expand the Jewish territories and establish a Jewish majority, these immigration laws were implemented to MAINTAIN a Jewish majority. As for the Israeli  citizenship of East Jerusalem Arabs is solely an expansionist agenda in a order to annex the East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

After Israel conquered and occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem during the Six Day War it offered the Palestinian Arabs citizenship in order to annex these lands. The Palestinian Arabs denied their citizenships to Israel in order to save their lands from annexation.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#252    Zaphod222

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:48 AM

View PostB Jenkins, on 23 June 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

You are truly delusional or highly naive. Israel discriminates against its Arab minority.

Name-calling is not an argument, and neither is re-stating a false claim.

View PostB Jenkins, on 23 June 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

For instance, Arabs own only 7% of land in Israel and the other 93% is owned by the Jewish Land Trust.

Land ownership has nothing to do with that. If the Israeli Arabs who are 15% of the population do not own precisely 15% of the land, that has NOTHING to do with the claim that they live in an "apartheid state". By the way, the PA does not allow ANY Arabs to sell land to Jews, how does that fit into your world-view? And the PA, of course, insists on ethnically cleansed, Jew-free West Bank. But that is nothing to get upset about isn´t it.

View PostB Jenkins, on 23 June 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

The Ministry of Education prohibits the Nakba to be taught in Israeli Arab schools and has banned "Nakba" from Israeli Arab textbooks. Israel's Ministry of Education exerts severe supervision over the Arab educational system and controls its curriculum, budget and appointments.

The Nakba is the revisionist Arab-muslim history re-write in glaring anti-semitic terms. Gee, yes, that kind of hate indoctrination should be taught in Jewish school, in your view? Would you likewise support that KKK material be taught in American schools?

View PostB Jenkins, on 23 June 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

In fact, Jews and Arabs DO NOT ATTEND THE SAME SCHOOLS OR CLASSROOMS. They have segrated streets and townships.

By choice, not by law.

View PostB Jenkins, on 23 June 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

In fact Israeli cabinet recently are trying a push a new law that forces all non-Jew citizens to SIGN an oath of allegiance to Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state" in other words, this new pledge would require future citizens declare their loyalty to an Zionist ideology, one intended to exclude Palestinians.

You are blanking out the demographic realities of Israel. You are talking about 6 million (count em) Jews in a hostile sea of 700 million muslim Arabs. Without legal protection of the status of Israel, it will simply be wiped out by demographics. (Which is, by the way, what this claim for "right of return" by the PA is about).
Do e,g, American Indians not enjoy the same kind of protection in their territories? If anybody could settle there at will, their remaining culture would be gone. Are you also complaining about "Apartheid" there?

If not, you are hypocritical.

Edited by Zaphod222, 23 June 2013 - 07:49 AM.

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#253    Frank Merton

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:52 AM

I don't doubt that Israelis discriminates against their Arab neighbors.  They fear them, it seems to me with good reason.  There are things the Israelis do that make me wince, but I think the main responsibility for the lack of peace there rests with the Palestinians.


#254    Zaphod222

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:53 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 20 June 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

The is the chicken and there is the egg, but in this case the occupation came first.
Occupied people have a right to resist their occupier under international law. Its just to bad that the USA has made the UN an ineffective vehicle for intervention to punish the crimes of Israel against an occupied people.

Br Cornelius

Selective history. This is not a random "occupied territory", it us a territory that contains both the historical and cultural center of Judaism (Jerusalem), and is territory that is necessary for Israel to have minimally defensible borders. Allowing that territory to turn into a Jihadist military center (like what happened in Gaza) would be the end of Israel.

So your talking about this in abstract terms without considering the particular conditions is dishonest. (Although I grant you that this is a typical Western liberal political view, based on ignorance.)

Edited by Zaphod222, 23 June 2013 - 07:54 AM.

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#255    Frank Merton

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:04 AM

I really don't think it's of any use to argue about what is or not the "historical" center of anything.  That sort of justification for things is unacceptable since anyone can come up with something in history to justify almost anything, and the Arabs certainly have good historical claim to the area and the Jewish claims are mostly a myth.

That said, Israel is an existing entity with a population born there and living there and entitled to stay there.





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