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Is Israel an Apartheid state?


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#256    GoSC

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:12 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 23 June 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

Name-calling is not an argument, and neither is re-stating a false claim.

That is not a false claim. The Israeli Arabs feel like aliens in their own "Jewish Democracy" homeland.


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Land ownership has nothing to do with that. If the Israeli Arabs who are 15% of the population do not own precisely 15% of the land, that has NOTHING to do with the claim that they live in an "apartheid state". By the way, the PA does not allow ANY Arabs to sell land to Jews, how does that fit into your world-view? And the PA, of course, insists on ethnically cleansed, Jew-free West Bank. But that is nothing to get upset about isn´t it.

Before the Partition Plan, the Jews owned 6% of the land while the Arabs owned 93% of the land. And no Arabs make up 20% of the population. Yet only own 7% of the land. And the State of Israel has implemented laws that make it ILLEGAL to sell any of its 93% of the Jewish Land Trust. The Arabs CAN NOT acquire more land in Israel. It is illegal.

West Bank belongs to the Palestinians btw.



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The Nakba is the revisionist Arab-muslim history re-write in glaring anti-semitic terms. Gee, yes, that kind of hate indoctrination should be taught in Jewish school, in your view? Would you likewise support that KKK material be taught in American schools?

The Nakba is historic fact, between a third to half of those thousands were already refugees BEFORE the 1948 WAR, buddy! The Nakba is the Palestinian catastrophe.



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By choice, not by law.

Who said anything about law but that Israel has two curriculums, one for Arabs and one for Jews. And the fact even intermixed population inhabitants live in mostly segrated neighborhoods.



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You are blanking out the demographic realities of Israel. You are talking about 6 million (count em) Jews in a hostile sea of 700 million muslim Arabs. Without legal protection of the status of Israel, it will simply be wiped out by demographics. (Which is, by the way, what this claim for "right of return" by the PA is about).
Do e,g, American Indians not enjoy the same kind of protection in their territories? If anybody could settle there at will, their remaining culture would be gone. Are you also complaining about "Apartheid" there?

If not, you are hypocritical.

Hey, it is the Palestinian villages and Palestinian culture has been wiped out. You keep forgetting that the Palestinians are the true indigeneous peoples. Hundreds of thousands became refugees and Israel wants them to be assimiliated into other countries in order for them to be forgotten and never to return. But why should the refugees be forced upon other nations? Why aren't the Palestinian Arabs have any rights at all, that is the right of return? I hate this twisted logic. The fact remains if the Zionist masses never immigrated to Palestine, who would be ruling all of Palestine today? Please answer that question, will you?

Edited by B Jenkins, 23 June 2013 - 08:16 AM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#257    Frank Merton

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:20 AM

Mr. Jenkins, you seem to have no idea how irrelevant your argument is.  That is all ancient history.  Forget it and get on with the future.


#258    GoSC

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:24 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 23 June 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

Mr. Jenkins, you seem to have no idea how irrelevant your argument is.  That is all ancient history.  Forget it and get on with the future.

Millions of refugees are irrelevant and ancient history? Have you ever lived as a refugee? Or have you lived under a Jewish State? Could you live under a Jewish State?

Edited by B Jenkins, 23 June 2013 - 08:26 AM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#259    Frank Merton

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:29 AM

The refugees would have found other lives a generation ago if it weren't for the politics of the situation.  Other refugees all have.

No, I'm sorry but they bring on their own situation, and I have little sympathy for them except for how they are deluded.


#260    GoSC

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:33 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 23 June 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

The refugees would have found other lives a generation ago if it weren't for the politics of the situation.  Other refugees all have.

No, I'm sorry but they bring on their own situation, and I have little sympathy for them except for how they are deluded.

These people had a homeland denied them and the Arab states will not accept them except to live as refugees.

And what about the people living under Israeli occupation. What the Palestinians wanted was a state of their own and were willing to give the Jews an enclave within it.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#261    Frank Merton

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:38 AM

Lots of people lost their homeland in history.  Pointless living it over and over.  Get on with life.


#262    GoSC

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:42 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 23 June 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

Lots of people lost their homeland in history.  Pointless living it over and over.  Get on with life.

That's the problem... the Palestinians are seeking a life and a state.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#263    Frank Merton

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:44 AM

Well they are doing it all wrong.


#264    GoSC

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:52 AM

RACISM & DISCRIMINATION AGAINST PALESTINIAN CITIZENS OF ISRAEL


Palestinian citizens of Israel are those Palestinians who remained behind in what became the state of Israel following the Nakba (1947-9), or "catastrophe," when approximately 750,000 Palestinians were expelled from their homes and land by Zionist forces in order to make way for a Jewish-majority state.

Between 1948 (when Israel declared independence) and 1966, Palestinians living in Israel were granted no political rights and were subject to Israeli military rule. After 1966, they were granted the right to vote and other civil rights, but to this day they continue to suffer from widespread, systematic and institutionalized discrimination affecting everything from land ownership and employment opportunities to family reunification rights. Today, there are approximately 1.2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel, about 20% of the population.


Institutionalized discrimination

  • There are more than 30 laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel. directly or indirectly, based solely on their ethnicity, rendering them second or third class citizens in their own homeland.
  • 93% of the land in Israel is owned either by the state or by quasi-governmental agencies, such as the Jewish National Fund, that discriminate against non-Jews. Palestinian citizens of Israel face significant legal obstacles in gaining access to this land for agriculture, residence, or commercial development.
  • More than seventy Palestinian villages and communities in Israel, some of which pre-date the establishment of the state, are unrecognized by the government, receive no services, and are not even listed on official maps. Many other towns with a majority Palestinian population lack basic services and receive significantly less government funding than do majority-Jewish towns.
  • Since Israel's founding in 1948, more than 600 Jewish municipalities have been established, while not a single new Arab town or community has been recognized by the state.
  • Israeli government resources are disproportionately directed to Jews and not to Arabs, one factor in causing the Palestinians of Israel to suffer the lowest living standards in Israeli society by all socio-economic indicators.
  • Government funding for Arab schools is far below that of Jewish schools. According to data published in 2004, the government provides three times as much funding to Jewish students than it does to Arab students.
  • According to the 2009 US State Department International Religious Freedom Report, “Many of the national and municipal policies in Jerusalem were designed to limit or diminish the non-Jewish population of Jerusalem.”
  • In the Spring of 2011, Jerusalem city councilman Yakir Segev stated: “We will not allow residents of the eastern [occupied Palestinian] part of the city to build as much as they need... At the end of the day, however politically incorrect it may be to say, we will also look at the demographic situation in Jerusalem to make sure that in another 20 years we don't wake up in an Arab city.”
  • The Nationality and Entry into Israel Law prevents Palestinians from the occupied territories who are married to Palestinian citizens of Israel from gaining residency or citizenship status. The law forces thousands of Palestinian citizens of Israel to either leave Israel or live apart from their families.
  • In October 2010, the Knesset approved a bill allowing smaller Israeli towns to reject residents who do not suit "the community's fundamental outlook", based on sex, religion, and socioeconomic status. Critics slammed the move as an attempt to allow Jewish towns to keep Arabs and other non-Jews out.
  • The so-called "Nakba Bill" bans state funding for groups that commemorate the tragedy that befell Palestinians during Israel's creation in 1948, when approx. 750,000 Palestinian Arabs were ethnically cleansed to make way for a Jewish majority state.
  • The British Mandate-era Land (Acquisition for Public Purposes) Ordinance law allows the Finance Minster to confiscate land for "public purposes.” The state has used this law extensively, in conjunction with other laws such as the Land Acquisition Law and the Absentees' Property Law, to confiscate Palestinian land in Israel. A new amendment, which was adopted in February 2010, confirms state ownership of land confiscated under this law, even where it has not been used to serve the original confiscation purpose. The amendment was designed to prevent Arab citizens from submitting lawsuits to reclaim confiscated land.
  • Over the entirety of its 63-year existence, there has been a period of only about one year (1966-1967) that Israel did not rule over large numbers of Palestinians to whom it granted no political rights.
  • Former Israeli prime ministers Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert have both warned that a continuation of the occupation will lead to Israel becoming an "apartheid" state. Barak stated: "As long as in this territory west of the Jordan river there is only one political entity called Israel it is going to be either non-Jewish, or non-democratic… If this bloc of millions of Palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state."
  • Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela, heroes of the struggle against apartheid in South Africa, have both compared Israel's treatment of Palestinians to apartheid.
  • Today, there is a virtual caste system within the territories that Israel controls between the Jordan River and Mediterranean Sea, with Israeli Jews at the top and Muslim and Christian Palestinians in the occupied territories at the bottom. In between are Palestinians with Israeli citizenship and Palestinian residents of occupied East Jerusalem.

Increasing intolerance for dissent & diversity in Israel

  • In September 2011 a survey found that a third of Israeli Jews don’t consider Arab citizens to be real Israelis.
  • According to a February 2011 survey, 52% of Israeli Jews would be willing to limit press freedoms to protect the state's image, while 55% would accept limits on the right to oppose the government's "defense policy.”
  • Also in September 2011, Dov Lior, the chief rabbi of settlements in Hebron and Kiryat Arba, told a conference that Arabs are “wolves,” “savages,” and “evil camel riders.”
  • A poll done by the Israel Democracy Institute and released in January 2011 found that nearly half of Israeli Jews don't want to live next door to an Arab.
  • In January 2011 the Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper reported that civics teachers around the country were complaining of rampant, virulent anti-Arab racism amongst their Jewish students. One teacher said, "When we have a discussion in class about equal rights, the class immediately gets out of control… The students attack us, the teachers, for being leftist and anti-Semitic, and say that all the Arab citizens who want to destroy Israel should be transferred." Another said: "We're not talking about a minority, or children from families that have extreme political views, but about normal children who are afflicted with ignorance… The political discourse in recent years has given them the legitimacy to be prejudiced."
  • In November 2010 the chief rabbi of the town of Safed, Shmuel Eliyahu, issued a ruling forbidding Jews from renting property to Arabs. Eliyahu had previously advocated hanging the children of terrorists.
  • In December 2010, dozens of municipal chief rabbis on the government payroll signed a letter supporting Eliyahu and his decree prohibiting Jews from renting property to non-Jews. One of the signatories, Rabbi Yosef Scheinen, head of the Ashdod Yeshiva (religious school), stated, "Racism originated in the Torah… The land of Israel is designated for the people of Israel."
  • In December 2010, the wives of 30 prominent rabbis signed an open letter calling on Jewish women not to date or work with Arabs. The letter stated: "For your sake, for the sake of future generations, and so you don't undergo horrible suffering, we turn to you with a request, a plea, a prayer. Don't date non-Jews, don't work at places that non-Jews frequent, and don't do national service with non-Jews.”
  • According to a September 2010 poll, half of Israeli Jewish students don't want Arabs in their classrooms, while an earlier survey found about the same number oppose equal rights for Arabs.
  • In September 2010, the spiritual leader of the Shas party (which sits in PM Benjamin Netanyahu’s coalition government), Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, declared that non-Jews were created to “serve” Jews, stating that: "Goyim [non-Jews] were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world - only to serve the People of Israel... Why are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat. That is why gentiles were created.”
  • In August 2010, on the eve of peace talks in Washington, Yosef delivered a sermon describing Palestinians as "evil, bitter enemies" and calling on god to make them "perish from this world" by striking them with a plague.
  • In 2001, Yosef, delivered a sermon in which he stated: "It is forbidden to be merciful to [Arabs]. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable…The Lord shall return the Arabs' deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world.”
  • In August 2010, Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira, head of a state-funded religious school in the West Bank settlement of Yitzhar, published a book that condoned the murder of non-Jewish children on the grounds that they may grow up to pose a threat to the state, writing that non-Jews are "uncompassionate by nature" and attacks against them "curb their evil inclination.” Several other prominent rabbis subsequently endorsed the book.
  • In July, 2009, Israel's Housing Minister, Ariel Atlas, warned against the "spread" of Israel's Arab population and said that Arabs and Jews shouldn't live together, stating: "if we go on like we have until now, we will lose the Galilee. Populations that should not mix are spreading there. I don't think that it is appropriate for [Jews and Arabs] to live together."
  • In the aftermath of Operation Cast Lead, Israel's devastating three-week military assault against Gaza that killed more than 1300 Palestinians in the winter of 2008-9, the Israeli daily Haaretz reported that Israeli army units had been printing t-shirts depicting disturbing, violent images such as dead Palestinian babies, Palestinian mothers weeping on their children's graves, a gun aimed at a child, bombed-out mosques, and a pregnant Palestinian woman with a target superimposed on her belly and the caption, “1 shot, 2 kills”. Another showed a Palestinian baby, growing into a boy and then an armed adult, with the inscription, “No matter how it begins, we'll put an end to it."
http://imeu.net/news...le0021536.shtml

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#265    XingWi

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 09:16 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 23 June 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Well they are doing it all wrong.

Every one of them? Every one of them is doing it all wrong? or are they even doing anything to deserve this collective punishment?

I'm not amazed by your lack of concern because there are many people in this world that don't give a damn about what happens to their fellow human beings, but I'm amazed by your commenting in this thread despite your lack of concern for either side.

Tell me honestly.... Can you wish for you and your family a life of misery that palestinians have to endure under the zionist occupation?


#266    Frank Merton

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 09:26 AM

The history of Israel dates back two generations.  There is no reason to be crying and feeling sorry for oneself in a group weep-in except laziness and smallness.  Then they resort to violence.  No excuses; they could have assimilated into a dozen societies or formed their own by now if they didn't have the cultural nonsense they cling to.


#267    XingWi

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 10:15 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 23 June 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

The history of Israel dates back two generations.  There is no reason to be crying and feeling sorry for oneself in a group weep-in except laziness and smallness.  Then they resort to violence.  No excuses; they could have assimilated into a dozen societies or formed their own by now if they didn't have the cultural nonsense they cling to.

And this is what I'm asking you. How many are "they" that resort to violence? And how many are the ones that are suffering and being denied their freedom?

Edited by XingWi, 23 June 2013 - 10:19 AM.


#268    Br Cornelius

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 03:39 PM

View PostZaphod222, on 23 June 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

Selective history. This is not a random "occupied territory", it us a territory that contains both the historical and cultural center of Judaism (Jerusalem), and is territory that is necessary for Israel to have minimally defensible borders. Allowing that territory to turn into a Jihadist military center (like what happened in Gaza) would be the end of Israel.

So your talking about this in abstract terms without considering the particular conditions is dishonest. (Although I grant you that this is a typical Western liberal political view, based on ignorance.)
Occupation to expand territory is a war crime. The Jewish imperative is not and can never be a justification for War crimes. Its sickening to see someone attempt to legitimize a war crime in defence of an aggressive occupier.

The whole history of Israel is one of illegal and illegitimate actions - right back to those of the British occupation and gifting of anothers lands to an invader.

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#269    and then

and then

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 04:17 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 23 June 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Occupation to expand territory is a war crime. The Jewish imperative is not and can never be a justification for War crimes. Its sickening to see someone attempt to legitimize a war crime in defence of an aggressive occupier.

The whole history of Israel is one of illegal and illegitimate actions - right back to those of the British occupation and gifting of anothers lands to an invader.

Br Cornelius

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Yet it never seemed to rouse the populations of the world overly much until it was JEWS who did it.....  The Palestinians and the Jews of Palestine will only make peace after the next great war between them.  Even then it is to be temporary.  If I were trying to really teach a child how destructive hate can be I can think of no better way than to allow them to see what it causes over a long period of time - the loss, pain, grief, anger, frustration... this situation encapsulates the core hatreds of all mankind as a witness against our nature.  School is IN in Palestine for any willing to learn.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#270    Yamato

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 04:59 PM

View Postand then, on 23 June 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Yet it never seemed to rouse the populations of the world overly much until it was JEWS who did it.....  The Palestinians and the Jews of Palestine will only make peace after the next great war between them.  Even then it is to be temporary.  If I were trying to really teach a child how destructive hate can be I can think of no better way than to allow them to see what it causes over a long period of time - the loss, pain, grief, anger, frustration... this situation encapsulates the core hatreds of all mankind as a witness against our nature.  School is IN in Palestine for any willing to learn.
Crimes against humanity are being committed today and they must be stopped.

Criminals should be behind bars, not at the heads of States.  Every criminal has an excuse for their crime, it doesn't excuse the crime.   Anti-Constitutional people who defend tyranny like this need a taste of their own cooking before they're able to wake up and smell the error of their ways.   If reincarnation exists, they'd do well to be reborn as a Palestinian ("justice") and have to watch their parents get humiliated by Israeli thugs, their home demolished by Israeli bulldozers, their life squandered by an utter lack of freedom, their children murdered by Israeli bullets, and then sit there like a dumbkabob like a good little Palestinian.   It's no wonder Americans are getting the government they ask for when they have attitudes about Israel-Palestine like yours.  

If the Spirit of '76 was alive and well in Palestine, they would actively resist the Zionist tyranny and pick up some guns and start some shooting about it.   But I'm sure the next time some Palestinian boy fires a bottle rocket, Israeli thugs will have another pretense to bomb another apartment building and slaughter more civilians.  Criminals who must be Jewish according to the Israeli government will have more pretense to throw their feces on the heads of Palestinian children walking through their cages.   There are few things that are worth bullets.  Tyranny is one.  The US in 1776 is a paradise compared to Palestine today.   If anyone wants to lock and load over tyranny half as disturbing as this, I'm not going to be a hypocrite and say they have no right.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela




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