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Anti-Gun Narrative Destroyed by Justice Dept.


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#31    Spiral staircase

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:58 PM

View Postninjadude, on 08 May 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

Because gun ownership is dropping to the crazy gun nuts who have 49 guns.

A slight exageration on your part perhaps q:

but....

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Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 08 May 2013 - 01:59 PM.


#32    Rafterman

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:52 PM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 08 May 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

The public outcry over firearms is not about gun crime in general but mass shootings.

Trying to convince the public not to be concerned will take a bit more than what you have presented.

Also, most who have been keeping tabs already know violent crime is down with property crimes on the rise. At least that is the portrait of my region according to FBI statistics the last time we checked, a year ago or so.

Mass shootings are an anomaly.  Trying to legislate against them is like trying to legislate against terrorism.

Unfortunately most have not been "keeping tabs" on these kinds of numbers and think that violent crime is on the increase thanks to lax gun laws - which is exactly what Barack Obama, Chuck Schumer, and Michael Bloomberg want folks to think.

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#33    Michelle

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:56 PM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 08 May 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

It is ironic that one who relies on anectodal evidence is asking how many people were covered in a survey.

The cross-section covered in a survey is going to be more accurate than getting your information by "know(ing) a person that has a gun shop" or from your "three lodge brothers".

So you wouldn't take someones word for it that happens to be in the business? When people go to the doctor they don't usually tell the doctor how to treat them because that is what they do for a living and it is what they studied for. There are people who will look up their symptoms on the internet and think they know more than the doctor, but I can guarantee they don't. There are always people who think they know more than the professionals, but I am not one of them. I tend to learn more by listening to the people who actually have experience in their field.

Edited by Michelle, 08 May 2013 - 04:35 PM.


#34    Kowalski

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:32 PM

View PostRafterman, on 08 May 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

Mass shootings are an anomaly.  Trying to legislate against them is like trying to legislate against terrorism.

Unfortunately most have not been "keeping tabs" on these kinds of numbers and think that violent crime is on the increase thanks to lax gun laws - which is exactly what Barack Obama, Chuck Schumer, and Michael Bloomberg want folks to think.

Your very right.


Quote

To accompany TheBlaze’s coverage of the National Rifle Association’s annual meeting in Houston, we figured it could be helpful to share some gun statistics pointed out to us by some of the NRA Convention attendees. Forget the talking points used by both sides in the gun control debate; we’re going to be talking about verified statistics.
Gun control advocates be advised, these are not the statistics you are looking for.
According to data from the FBI’s uniform crime reports, California had the highest number of gun murders in 2011 with 1,220 — which makes up 68 percent of all murders in the state that year and equates to 3.25 murders per 100,000 people.
The irony of such a grisly distinction is evident when you look at which state was named the state with the strongest gun control laws in 2011 by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. You guessed it — it was California.
“What is very unusual is that California also has a program by which we can remove guns, recover guns from people who have a gun and then subsequently become prohibited or dangerous,” Brady Campaign spokeswoman Amanda Wilcox said at the time.
It should be noted, though, that California is also one of the biggest states in the country, with a population of about about 37 million. Therefore, it might make sense that it would have a high number of murders but its murder rate is still high as gun control has had a seemingly inconsequential impact. In comparison, Texas has a population of about 25.6 million and saw 699 total gun murders in 2011 — nearly half that of California — and a firearms murder rate of 2.91 per 100,000.

But if you look at the data another way — murders per 100,000 people — another gun control haven tops the list.
The FBI data also notes that Washington, D.C. had the highest murder rate per 100,000 people. The nation’s capital saw 12 gun murders per 100,000 in 2011. DC also finished first in gun-related robberies per 100,000 people – with 242.56.
In 1976, the District of Columbia required all guns be registered, banned new handguns and required guns at home to be stored and dissembled or locked up. Unfortunately, the draconian measures — which lasted more than three decades — didn’t had the desired effect.
Journalist and attorney Jeffrey Scott Shapiro explains the not-so-surprising result in an op-ed published in the Wall Street Journal on Jan. 15, 2013:


The gun ban had an unintended effect: It emboldened criminals because they knew that law-abiding District residents were unarmed and powerless to defend themselves. Violent crime increased after the law was enacted, with homicides rising to 369 in 1988, from 188 in 1976 when the ban started. By 1993, annual homicides had reached 454.
[...]
Since the gun ban was struck down, murders in the District have steadily gone down, from 186 in 2008 to 88 in 2012, the lowest number since the law was enacted in 1976.

Though it should be noted that the gun murders started decreasing in 1994.
Today, Washington, D.C. still has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation. And yet again, the gun murder rate remains dramatically high, the highest in the United States in fact.
So, do the numbers indicate that gun control is the answer to gun violence? You decide.

Taken from http://www.theblaze....nt-want-to-see/

Also take a look at Chicago where gun laws are strict...See a pattern?


#35    CRYSiiSx2

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:50 PM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 08 May 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Most guns in civilian hands and as used by law enforcment before the mid-80s were revolvers.

Are you kidding me?  Please cite this "information".

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#36    Spiral staircase

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:50 PM

View Postninjadude, on 08 May 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

Because gun ownership is dropping to the crazy gun nuts who have 49 guns.

Gun ownership by home is going down according to the best polls we have. Those who disagree with polls disagree with the scientific method behind them.

View Postninjadude, on 08 May 2013 - 02:32 AM, said:

don't let the facts get in the way

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The graph "ninjadown" provided above is from the General Social Survey.

Quote

The General Social Survey (GSS), conducted roughly every two years by the independent research organization NORC at the University of Chicago, with principal funding from the National Science Foundation, provides a widely-used look at the rate of gun ownership over time.

Pew Research Center for the People & the Press

I am not going to deny that. Others can, they can deny the scientific method which offers us the best estimate.


Gun manufacturing is going up (based on records) and there is a steady stream of imports and they cannot all be going into Mexico as part of the gray or black market so it would appear gun sales are going up as a corresponding factor.


Gun sales are going up according to the anecdotal evidence (not as reliable as evidence gathered via the scientific method).


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Poll results: Who supports universal background checks?

And how did we vote in the last election?

Voting reveals that voters in the last presidential, senate, and house elections we're about evenly split. [link]

That means we are roughly divided as a nation (without including those who could but chose not to vote), it does not mean we cannot work together. we can and will have to work together.

When it comes to the single issue of stronger or even universal background checks 86-90% of Americans are in support.

A Post/ABC poll conducted in April revealed 86% of Americans support backround checks for online or gun show purchases. [link]

A CBS News/New York Times Poll in late April found 88% of Americans favor universal background checks. [link] That is somewhat down from the 92% who polled in favor of universal background checks in January. So opinions are not static and contain fluctuation.

A CNN/Opinon Research Corp. survey from January placed 94% of Americans favored universal background checks. [link]

(Note: Some who favor universal backrground checks own firearms and vice versa.)


Quinnipiac University (Connecticut) Poll results regarding conspiracy theories

This is U-M after all...

According to a Quinnipiac April poll 91% of voters  want universal background checks.

They asked the same people the following questions:

"American voters say 48 - 38 percent that the government could use the information from universal background checks to confiscate legally-owned guns."

"Gun owners believe 53 - 34 percent that universal background checks could lead to confiscation of legal guns."

"Expecting gun confiscation are Republicans 61 - 25 percent and independent voters 51 - 36 percent, while Democrats say 54 - 32 percent there will not be confiscation. Men say confiscation is likely 52 - 37 percent and women agree 45 - 38 percent."

April 4, 2013 - Background Checks Could Lead To Gun Confiscation, Many Voters Tell Quinnipiac University National Poll; But 91 Percent Want Universal Gun Checks


The differences between voters, gun owners, Republicans, Democrats, independents, women, and men reveal how we think when part of a group.

Our own opinions, which many believe are formed soundly through objectively taking in the evidence (whicever evidence they choose to listen to), are actually opinions that can be affected by the group we are in, not as sound as we might want to believe, context does matter!

(Note: Even if 48% of voters belive, "that the government could use the information from universal background checks to confiscate legally-owned guns",  91% of voters still favor universal background checks.

That means 43% of voters still want background checks while actually believing it could lead to those submitting to background checks being put on "a list" which will later be used to confiscate their legally-owned guns.

Scary!!!! But is is a conspiracy theory....and the reason some believe in conspiracy theories could be explained via psychology. Just believing in a conspiracy theory does not make it more possible, the mind is powerful...science can allay those fears.


NRA members and gun owners who support background checks

Note: These polls might mean the most so when found links to both survey sample size and/or polling methodology is linked.


Republican party strategist, Fox news analyst and commentator, and pollster Frank Lunt found 74 percent of NRA members, "support requiring criminal background checks of anyone purchasing a gun." [link]

Austin Mayor Lee Leffingwel stated that, "74 percent of National Rife Association members support background checks." [link]

A Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health researchers', "survey found that 74 percent of NRA members support requiring universal background checks for all gun sales." [link]

[The John Hopkin's "poll’s sub-sample of NRA members included only 169 completed interviews and a seven-point margin of sampling error," and, "the Johns Hopkins program has received financial support, and is named after, New York City mayor and gun control advocate Michael Bloomberg."] [link]

The New England Journal of Medicine survey found, "84% of gun-owners and 74% of NRA members (vs. 90% of non–gun-owners) supported requiring a universal background-check system for all gun sales." [link including how this survey was conducted]

Pew Research center reports 85% of gun owners, "favor making private gun sales and sales at gun shows subject to background checks." [link] [how this poll was conducted]

A New York Times/CBS News poll found approval for universal background checks among, "85 percent whose households include National Rifle Association members." [link]


A Sucker's Choice

As an aside, a Gallup asked, "if you had to choose," "for the presdident and Congress to focus on," either "laws on the sale of guns and ammunition" or "school security measures and mental health system"? Which would you choose?

30% favored, "laws on the sale of guns and ammunition."

and

65% supported, "school security measures and mental health system."

Luckily, we don't have to choose, we can do both.


NRA chickens out of a state-wide referendum

Maryland passed state-level gun control legislation. The NRA opposes it. It appeared there might have been a chance that they would have taken it to referendum, the gun right's idea, but it would have allowed everyone to vote on it. The gun rights activist have since backed off and will take it to court instead. The referendum would have been cheaper and this will cost them, but we know they have lots of money, will it at least make a dent?


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The scientific method vs anecdotal evidence

Now those who want to claim gun sales are going up among all Americans are simply ignoring the polls regarding gun ownership per home.

If some beleive that a majority of Americans agree with them on the issue of gun control, well they are simply ignoring the polls in favor of their anecdotal evidence and are demonstrating the false-consenus bias.

So, what explains gun ownership down while gun sales are up?

It could be that some are lying when the pollsters call.

It is possible that some simply hang up if a scholar or a professonal pollster calls. Others might talk but think if they answer honestly that the pollster would put them on a list, have the government access it, and when the times comes knock-knock the police is here to take away your guns.

Not saying that is what is happening but it seems likely...

An educated guess on why gun ownership is down while gun ownership is up.

Quote

“There are all these claims that gun ownership is going through the roof,” said Daniel Webster, the director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research. “But I suspect the increase in gun sales has been limited mostly to current gun owners. The most reputable surveys show a decline over time in the share of households with guns.”

That decline, which has been studied by researchers for years but is relatively unknown among the general public, suggests that even as the conversation on guns remains contentious, a broad shift away from gun ownership is under way in a growing number of American homes. It also raises questions about the future politics of gun control. Will efforts to regulate guns eventually meet with less resistance if they are increasingly concentrated in fewer hands — or more resistance?

Share of Homes With Guns Shows 4-Decade Decline


Women & Guns magazine gives us insight into who is buying guns, people that already own them it seems...

Quote

It turns out that gun lovers tend to buy multiple guns. The editor of Women & Guns magazine says the average subscriber owns seven. The leading scholar-expert on guns in the US, Gary Kleck, who analyzes the best data—that of the General Social Survey—believes there has been no increase at all in gun-owning women.

Piercing the Myths about Women and Guns


Anecdotal evidence supporting women are taking gun classes at ever increasing levels

Now, those claiming they know a gun shop owner and that their classes have gone up from 3 a week to 6, mostly women, are offering anecdotal evidence which won't be reliable as a poll. But it is still evidence and should be addressed.

So, let us say the NRA was offering classes to women, and in 2000 they had 500 women take them but by 2011 they had 9,500 women take them. They could claim that women taking gun classes went up a whole 1900%. Wow!!!!

But when we realize the max numner of women taking classes from the NRA was still only 9,500 then it doesn't seem that impressive compared to our whole population.

If other non-NRA classes, the kind offered by gun shops, saw similar results then it would not be surprising for one of their members to report that they used to have 3 classes a week but now have 6 classes a week, that there is also waiting list and most enrolling are women....well not so much the wow factor from a top-down view, from a bottom-up view and you are in the middle of that activity: WOW!!!

Under the impression of a cognitive bias they might believe that most of the women in the country are arming themsleves, taking classes, and agree with them.

To the rest of the country, no our women are not arming themselves and taking classes in droves.

While some clearly dismiss polls in favor of anecodal evidence, we don't have too, we can accept both while placing them in proportional perspective.

For some anecdotal evidence we could also consider this: NRAblog.com - Women on Target®

Scroll through that site, go to previous page if you want to see more, and look at the women taking these classes.

Do they look like women you know, work with, and have in your family? Do they dress like them?

To me a few of them look like FOX news reporters while others look like they could be out hunting foxes!

I have actually worked around and went to church with some of these types but they do not look like my neighbors or family members.


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The NRA's own data on women taking their gun classes

As far as the 500 women taking NRA classes in 2000 and 9,500 taking them in 2011, for a total 1900% increase, that was from the NRA itself.

Quote

The National Rifle Association, whose annual convention begins on Thursday in St. Louis, says yes. "Women are increasingly coming into gun ownership," says NRA spokesperson Stephanie Samford.Samford points to anecdotal evidence. The group's "Women on Target" instructional shooting clinic started in 2000 with 500 participants in one- and two-day events. By 2011, the program grew to include over 9,500 participants, she says. She also cites gun manufacturers' efforts to cater more to female shooters with firearms that have less recoil, guns for hunting that suit smaller frames and, of course, pink handguns.

But the NRA does not keep statistics on women and gun ownership. They do not have hard data to back up the claim that more women in America are actually becoming gun owners.

Women and Guns: Hype vs Reality

We can go back and look at the situation In 2005. 5,600 women took NRA classes in 2005.

Quote

The NRA started the program to meet a demand, said John Robbins, an NRA spokesman. “Women wanted a women-friendly environment and shooting instruction,” Robbins said. “Women found it nice to find other women who were interested in shooting.”

According to Robbins, 500 women attended clinics in 2000, the program’s first year, and in 2005, the number climbed to 5,600. Over all, about 23,000 women have participated in the program.

HandGunForums.net - 2nd Amendment Issues - Firearm Political Discussion - NY Women Learn To Shoot

Second 2005 source if others do not want to accept the one from above.

Quote

Though the NRA has long had shooting programs for women, the association officially launched a recreational instructional shooting clinic program called Women on Target in 2000. From 13 clinics and 500 participants nationally, the program has grown to more than 200 clinics and 5,600 women in 2005, said Mary Sue Faulkner, director of the NRA's community service programs division.

More women picking up guns and joining in on fun

In 2008 the figure rose to more than 7,000.

Quote

We have had a record-breaking number of Women On Target® Instructional Shooting Clinics so far this year — 239 — and a record-breaking number of participants — more than 7,000!

Women On Target® see increase in participation

In 2010 they announced that they broke the 50,000 threshold. I did not find how many women took the class that year.

Quote

Women On Target® Instructional Shooting Clinic Coordinator Elizabeth Hellmann shared some exciting news with NRAblog yesterday:

"We've passed the 50K mark! As of today, more than 50,000 women have attended clinics in the past ten years," she writes. "Please raise your coffee mugs and join me in saying, "Here's to the next 50,000 happy customers!"

Women On Target® clinics reach 50,000th participant

In February of this year NRA has claimed that less than 80,000 women have attended their classes from 2000-2012. Again, did not find the exact number for the year of 2012.

Quote

Since the program's fervent beginnings back in 2000, almost eighty-thousand women have stepped onto a Women on Target range. Though the curriculum varies per event, ladies are generally offered the opportunity to fire pistols, rifles and shotguns under the watchful eye of an NRA Certified Instructor.

Participation in NRA Women's Program increases by 26% in 2012

The NRA has been busy promiting classes but when realize the estimation for the US population in 2010 was 313,914,040 and that in 2011 females made up 50.8 of the population.

We then have roughly 159,468,332 females in the US (not all are over 18 but let us use that number anyways) and the NRA claims a that almost 80,000 woman have taken their classes (let us go with 80,000) which comes out to only 0.00005016670018220294%.

Wow? I think not. There are no exact numbers, this is not accurate, we would have to include non-NRA gun classes women are enrolling in, but their program alone has no wow factor percentage wise from a top-down view.


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Percentage of women who own guns

GOPUSA lists the following data.

Quote

Overall, the number of U.S. households that own guns has declined in the past few decades. In 1977, more than half reported owning a gun; today it's less than one-third, said Josh Sugarmann, founder and director of the Violence Policy Center. On the other hand, the people who do own guns tend to have more of them.

Tom Smith, who directs a center dedicated to social science research at the University of Chicago, has studied household gun ownership for several decades. He's found that the number of women who report personally owning a gun hasn't changed much since 1980. The latest data, from 2010, show that 10 percent of women report owning a firearm.

In general, women are one-fifth as likely to own a gun as men, he said.

Another study, by researchers at the University of California, Davis, found roughly similar numbers. Based on multiple national surveys, they estimated that 7 percent to 8 percent of women and 26 percent to 30 percent of men own a handgun.

GOPUSA - Women and guns: A lifestyle

Let us augment that with what Gallup found.

Quote

And a Gallup poll released in 2011 indicated 23 percent of U.S. women personally own guns, and 43 percent live in households with guns.

Nancy Lanza among increasing number of women who got guns for sport, protection.

So according to Gallup there is 43% of women live in homes with guns but only 23% own guns. That is a difference of 20% of women who live in homes with guns but do not own one themselves.

This could mean that if the NRA keeps marketing toward women, claiming they need a gun for self-defense, and they are in homes where a male owns a gun and encourages to own one, that there is still 20% of women who in those homes who could eventually own one, that would make it evenly 43%-43% of women who live in a home with a gun and at least one of them would be theres. The NRA could them claim that that gun ownership among women has doubled, again.

57% of women would still not own a gun or live in a home where there are firearms....


How does the NRA markets guns to women?

"The pitch is very simple,” Sugarmann continued. “You’re a woman, someone is going to attack you, you need a gun." [link]


Quote

The NRA and its brother organizations are claiming that women are stampeding to buy firearms. These claims then get repeated in newspapers and websites as if they were news rather than wishful thinking.


The NRA actually has very few female members and, it turns out, does not keep statistics on female gun ownership, but reports that the number of women enrolled in its “Women on Target” clinics had 500 customers in 2001 and 9500 in 2011.

The NRA also features individual women’s born-again stories, like that of Katherine von Tour of Gun Owners of America, who describes her odyssey from foolish “Sixties liberal” to antigovernment gun enthusiast.[ii]
The manufacturers, who support all the pro-gun organizations, are busy producing pink pistols, pink ear protectors and shell pouches, pink “Pistol Packing Princess” stickers.

Here’s the problem: There’s little if any evidence for the assertion that more women, let alone masses of women, are buying guns. The NRA cites a 2011 Gallup Poll for the claimed increase.

But in fact that poll shows an increase only among women who say there is a gun in their household, not that they own it.[iv] And the managing editor of Gallup Poll says that the increase in women with guns is slight and includes many women who already owned guns buying more of them. Nancy Lanza, whose weapon was used in the Newtown school bombing, was probably one of those (she owned five guns).

<snip>

One motive is that the “traditional market of white males is dying off,” according to Josh Sugarmann, executive director of the Violence Policy Center. As a result, manufacturers and retailers of guns need a new market. (Similarly, the aggressive marketing of assault weapons was the industry’s response to the declining market for handguns.) “The pitch is very simple,” Sugarmann says. “You’re a woman, someone is going to attack you, you need a gun.” In fact, having a gun in the home kills and injures many times more women than it protects.

Another gun-lobby concern is counteracting women’s anti-gun attitudes. The NRA and its brother organizations fear that women could vote out the politicians they fund. So the gun lobby has been trying to soften people’s associations with guns, in order to convince women to buy, by picturing women shooters, delicate small pistols, and ominous criminals threatening women.

But just as they have no data to back up the claims that more women want guns, they also have a problem with this propaganda line, because there is another aspect of their approach they can’t afford to leave behind: the “hard” gun propaganda that appeals to their core market, especially for assault weapons, by pandering to macho values.[xi] (One sales pitch lists the “Ten Manliest Firearms.”)

The hard-gun approach also appeals to misogyny, labeling those who support gun control as man-hating “feminazis.” This gun talk appeals to tea-party, Glenn Beck-type white rage. One piece says it bluntly: “gun control as castration.” Gun control “comes down to the psychological … desperate need of such women to control, manage and limit male agency…. An attempt to perform a symbolic castration of all man in society … The men who favor gun control … are pro homosexual ….”

Another piece accuses gun-control liberals of cowardice: “These sniveling brats are mostly women and emasculated beta males with children.” (Becoming a father is just another form of castration?) The appeal is also bluntly racist: gun-control supporters are “cowardly liberals who think the only thing scarier than a gun is a white man with a gun.” With rhetoric like this, no wonder the NRA’s men in Congress urged it a few days ago to “tone down” the propaganda.

Of course many women own guns, and many of them also support gun control. But let’s not be misled by the gun lobby: The majority of women know that arming themselves is not a solution to our problems and those of our children.

Linda Gordon is University Professor of the Humanities and Florence Kelley Professor of History at New York University.

Piercing the Myths about Women and Guns


A profile of gun owners

Quote

The general profile of gun owners in America differs substantially from the general public. Roughly three-quarters (74%) of gun owners are men, and 82% are white. Taken together, 61% of adults who own guns are white men. Nationwide, white men make up only 32% of the U.S. adult population.


Gun owners and those who do not own guns differ politically. While 37% of all adults identify with or lean toward the Republican Party, that proportion jumps to 51% among gun owners. Among those in households without guns, just 27% identify with the Republican Party or lean Republican, while a majority (61%) are Democrats or lean Democratic.

Pew Research Center for the People & the Press

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 08 May 2013 - 07:35 PM.


#37    Sweetpumper

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:52 PM

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#38    third_eye

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:57 PM

Everybody should just hand over the keys to the firearms cabinet to the gays and lesbians ... they know what firearms are good for.

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#39    Spiral staircase

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:05 PM

View PostMichelle, on 08 May 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

So you wouldn't take someones word for it that happens to be in the business? When people go to the doctor they don't usually tell the doctor how to treat them because that is what they do for a living and it is what they studied for. There are people who will look up their symptoms on the internet and think they know more than the doctor, but I can guarantee they don't. There are always people who think they know more than the professionals, but I am not one of them. I tend to learn more by listening to the people who actually have experience in their field.

Yes, I would take their word for it, and your account is believable and true. It just does not apply to a cross-section of society but to those in your area alone.

Anecdotal evidence is not based on the scientific method but still has its value.

Both are valuable for their own conclusions but if one begins to disregard the scientific method in favor of purely relying on anecdotal evidence...errors in judgment and cognitive biases develop.

This was explained in more detail right above SW's 4-chan-esque post and third_eye's in case you happened to skip past that full report I submitted to our forum. That is fine if you did, it is not for everyone to read, those who are interested will be more informed, those who are not can continue to rely on their own sources of evidence.

I believe your account of the gun shop owner and his classes.

I disagree with your conclusion where you use that anecdotal evidence to claim gun ownership per home is not going down. The polls conducted via the scientific method disagree with your claim as well.

View PostCRYSiiSx2, on 08 May 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

Are you kidding me?  Please cite this "information".

That was explained in a narrative using anecdotal evidence on this other post.

You can scroll down to this text on that post: "On Beretta's marketing strategy for a semi-automatic pistol that entered civilian market," or just listen to part of the evidence in a fascinatiing interview here as well..

You are not required to read it or listen to that and can base your conclusion on whatever evidence you have or assumptions you currently hold. I prefer the anectodal evidence in this matter since it is the best information we have...it is more history than statistics.

I will repeat my claim, before the mid-80s most civilians and most LEOs had revolvers. Feel free to disagree, honorably I hope.

(:

Cheers.


Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 08 May 2013 - 07:15 PM.


#40    Michelle

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:18 PM

http://www.nizkor.or...sed-sample.html

The fallacy of polls...


#41    Kowalski

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:21 PM

Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993

Majority of men, Republicans, and Southerners report having a gun in their households

by Lydia Saad

PRINCETON, NJ -- Forty-seven percent of American adults currently report that they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property. This is up from 41% a year ago and is the highest Gallup has recorded since 1993, albeit marginally above the 44% and 45% highs seen during that period.

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The new result comes from Gallup's Oct. 6-9 Crime poll, which also finds public support for personal gun rights at a high-water mark. Given this, the latest increase in self-reported gun ownership could reflect a change in Americans' comfort with publicly stating that they have a gun as much as it reflects a real uptick in gun ownership.
Republicans (including independents who lean Republican) are more likely than Democrats (including Democratic leaners) to say they have a gun in their household: 55% to 40%. While sizable, this partisan gap is narrower than that seen in recent years, as Democrats' self-reported gun ownership spiked to 40% this year.

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The percentage of women who report household gun ownership is also at a new high, now registering 43%.

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Gun ownership is more common in the South (54%) and Midwest (51%) than in the East (36%) or West (43%) -- a finding typical of Gallup's trends in gun ownership by region.

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One in Three Americans Personally Own a Gun
Since 2000, Gallup has asked respondents with guns in their households a follow-up question to determine if the gun belongs to the respondent or to someone else. On this basis, Gallup finds that 34% of all Americans personally own a gun.
The gender gap in personal gun ownership is wider than that seen for household ownership, as 46% of all adult men vs. 23% of all women say they personally own a gun.
Middle-aged adults -- those 35 to 54 years of age -- and adults with no college education are more likely than their counterparts to be gun owners.

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Bottom Line
A clear societal change took place regarding gun ownership in the early 1990s, when the percentage of Americans saying there was a gun in their home or on their property dropped from the low to mid-50s into the low to mid-40s and remained at that level for the next 15 years. Whether this reflected a true decline in gun ownership or a cultural shift in Americans' willingness to say they had guns is unclear. However, the new data suggest that attitudes may again be changing. At 47%, reported gun ownership is the highest it has been in nearly two decades -- a finding that may be related to Americans' dampened support for gun-control laws. However, to ensure that this year's increase reflects a meaningful rebound in reported gun ownership, it will be important to see whether the uptick continues in future polling.

--- Taken from http://www.gallup.co...ghest-1993.aspx


Wanting to kill some time over the weekend, a friend and I did what men do when they have an entire afternoon to themselves: wish-listing at gun stores. We went to over half a dozen stores, mostly mom-and-pop operations that my friend has been frequenting for many years. We were shocked at what we found.
There was not a single AR, AK, or SKS platform to be found at any store in the county; and the shelves were pretty bare of other semi-auto rifles as well. Asked when they might expect to restock, the gun store owners said that they were unsure when they would be able to get in new shipments because most major wholesalers have no weapons in stock either.
Blaming the Obama administration’s desire to re-institute an assault weapons ban, manufacturers are hesitant to make a model of long guns for civilian use that may soon be outlawed once again. In this interview with gun store owner Mark Meinzinger, owner of Northwoods Gun Shop in Lachine, Michigan, he takes us to the sites where gun stores order their stock; and without exception, there were virtually no firearms – of any type – available. Meinzinger says that what the gun stores have in stock now “is all they’re gonna have.”

---- Taken from http://www.westernjo...e-shelves-bare/


The talk of new gun control measures that has followed Friday's mass shooting in a Newtown, Conn., elementary school has gun buyers rushing to the nearest store and picking up new weapons, according to gun store owners and state police background check information.
On Saturday, Virginia state police fielded 4,166 requests for background checks, a 42 percent increase from the same Saturday last year and the highest number of transactions received in a single day since the program was implemented in 1989. Sunday's 1,828 background checks in Virginia represented a 43 percent increase from a year ago. Colorado also set a one-day record for background checks on Saturday with 4,200, the highest number since the program began in 1999.
Paul Decker, the owner of Hunters' Heaven in Hayes, Va., said he saw a big spike in sales over the weekend, with many customers buying the AR type of rifle allegedly used in the Newtown shooting. Gun control advocates want AR and other semi-automatic rifles banned, returning to the Bill Clinton-era policy that was the law of the land from 1994 to 2004. Also flying off the shelves were high-capacity magazines and ammunition, over fears Congress could vote to limit them.
"The people that would normally buy a box [of ammo] are buying four or five boxes," Decker said.
Virginia State Police spokeswoman Corinne Geller stressed that the background check figures are only a snapshot of the larger gun-sales picture, because only licensed gun dealers need to perform background checks. A person can buy guns through a classified ad or other private sellers, and there would be no record of it. Also, the state has no way of knowing how many weapons are sold per background check, so the figure does not describe the total number of guns sold last weekend in the state.
Richard Sprague, the owner of Sprague's Sports in Yuma, Ariz., said he saw a "noticeable increase in business" over the weekend. Sprague said the only other time he saw such a spike was immediately after President Barack Obama was elected president in 2008, when many gun owners feared he would push for restrictive gun laws.
Decker also said his business boomed in the year after Obama's election: He experienced a 50 percent increase in sales. "The '08 election was like the Brady Bill, the Crime Bill and Y2K all wrapped together and then doubled," he said, referencing two pieces of gun control legislation.
It's common for gun sales to spike after a mass shooting, because that is when politicians and others tend to push for gun control legislation. Democratic Sen. Diane Feinstein of California said Monday she will introduce a bill to ban dozens of assault weapon models and any magazines that hold more than 10 rounds of bullets.

------ Taken from http://news.yahoo.co...-174415554.html



Quote

In a report issued prior to Newtown, the market research firm IbisWorld, which tracks the gun industry, found "Gun enthusiasts are working themselves into a frenzy over what another four years under the Obama administration may hold for gun laws."
Chuck Nesby is an instructor at Nova Firearms in Falls Church, Va., where they nearly sold out of AR-15s and high-capacity magazines after the Newtown shooting.

"If I could, I would give Sen. Feinstein and the president 'Salesmen of the Year' awards," he said.
Sen. Feinstein plans to introduce her bill to ban the sale or manufacturer of assault weapons on the first day of the new Congress in January. That's expected to trigger yet another boost in gun sales.


Taken from http://www.cbsnews.c...fter-shootings/


#42    Michelle

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:45 PM

One thing LBA fails to take into account is that gun stores have networks all over the US that they buy, sell and trade with. They stay in contact with each other on class availability and costs as well. Obviously he hasn't googled "more women taking firearm classes" or he would see the evidence presented on dozens of websites. The thing about polls is a lot of people don't want anyone to know they own a gun. Conservative white Republicans don't normally spread this knowledge around because it could set them up as a target for getting robbed. On the other side of the coin gang bangers, felons and the general criminal population wouldn't admit to it either.

You've got to take these polls with a huge grain of salt and a little bit of common sense.


#43    Spiral staircase

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:46 PM

View PostKowalski, on 08 May 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993

Majority of men, Republicans, and Southerners report having a gun in their households

by Lydia Saad

PRINCETON, NJ -- Forty-seven percent of American adults currently report that they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property. This is up from 41% a year ago and is the highest Gallup has recorded since 1993, albeit marginally above the 44% and 45% highs seen during that period.

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<snip>


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Take note that the graphs above and all the others ones that were snipped <but looked at> are all from October 2011.

Sandy Hook occured in December of 2012. Almost 5 months ago...much has changed but to be fair we should take into account those polls that Kowalsi posted and compare them to newer ones to gain a composite view.

I also understand how much time and effort Kowalski put into her post and thank her for that.


The Gallup poll as presented in the first graph that Kowalski posted translates gun ownership by home at 47% in October 2011.

The Gallup poll data set she posted, the last graphic posted in the post above, drawing from the same poll result, also lists it at 47% if you add the 34% (personally own a gun) and 13% (other household member owns a gun).

Compare that to the newest Gallup poll released last year which lists gun ownership by home at 43%.

Quote

And a Gallup poll released last year indicated 23 percent of U.S. women personally own guns, and 43 percent live in households with guns.

Nancy Lanza among increasing number of women who got guns for sport, protection

The graph Ninjadude posted from the General Social Survey places it at 34% in January 2013.

Quote

A January 2013 Pew Research Center survey found 33% saying they had a gun, rifle or pistol in their home, as did 34% in the 2012 wave of the General Social Survey.

http://www.people-pr...d-demographics/


#44    Spiral staircase

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:48 PM

View PostMichelle, on 08 May 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

One thing LBA fails to take into account is that gun stores have networks all over the US that they buy, sell and trade with. They stay in contact with each other on class availability and costs as well. Obviously he hasn't googled "more women taking firearm classes" or he would see the evidence presented on dozens of websites. The thing about polls is a lot of people don't want anyone to know they own a gun. Conservative white Republicans don't normally spread this knowledge around because it could set them up as a target for getting robbed. On the other side of the coin gang bangers, felons and the general criminal population wouldn't admit to it either.

You've got to take these polls with a huge grain of salt and a little bit of common sense.

I used no polls but NRA's own claims of how many women took their classes. There are naturally other non-affiliated NRA classes. The results are not perfect and would include those.

Note: even if the gun shop has data from other gun shops, it is still anecdotal or at best, if documented, only pertains to those women who appear for classes, it is only drawing from that group and not a cross-section of all of society including both women who take gun classes and women who do not.

The NRA spokesperson Stephanie Samford claims that 500 women took NRA classes in 2000 and 9,500 took them in 2011. [link]

That is a total 1900% increase but still not the majority of American women.

It would seem to them and even other gun shop owners that their class enrollments among women are skyrocketing, and they would be. That does not mean the majority of American women are enrolling, not at all.

The rough odds I calculated are that only 0.00005016670018220294% of American women have enrolled in NRA gun classes using those figures from Stephanie Samford and this US Census data.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 08 May 2013 - 08:01 PM.


#45    Michelle

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:54 PM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 08 May 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

I used no polls but NRA's own claims of how many women took their classes. There are naturally other non-affiliated NRA classes. The results are not perfect.

The rough odds I calculated are that only 0.00005016670018220294% of American women have enrolled in NRA gun classes.

Note: even if the gun shop has data from other gun shops, it is still anecdotal, it is only drawing from the percentage of women who appear.

The NRA claims that, "500 women taking NRA classes in 2000 and 9,500 taking them in 2011, for a total 1900% increase, that was from the NRA itself."

It would seem to them and even other gun shop owners that their class enrollments among women are skyrocketing, and they would be. That does not mean the majority of American women are enrolling, not at all.

I wouldn't use the NRA as a credible source, but that's just me.

Nowhere in any of my posts did I claim the majority of women are enrolling in gun classes.





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