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God's promise on Israel


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#1    jugoso

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:43 PM

I read this this morning and quite liked it.

Quote

Promises about the land of Israel were never intended to be taken literally,
or as applying to a defined geographical territory. They are a way of speaking
about how to live under God so that justice and peace reign, the weak and poor
are protected, the stranger is included, and all have a share in the community
and a contribution to make to it. The ‘promised land’ in the Bible is not a
place, so much as a metaphor of how things ought to be among the people of God.
This ‘promised land’ can be found – or built – anywhere.

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#2    and then

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:50 PM

View Postjugoso, on 08 May 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

I read this this morning and quite liked it.



http://meloney.newsv...or-palestinians
Those pesky Israelis... just won't disappear like they're supposed to.  Even have the audacity to be willing to fight to maintain their home - how DARE they?  Seriously though, don't you find it interesting that when we receive these new and "enlightened" interpretations of God's word, they all seem to appeal for the dissipation or even destruction of the state of Israel as a home for the Jews?  Coincidence?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#3    Coffey

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:51 PM

It's another example of man taking religion and using it for greed and selfishness.

View Postand then, on 08 May 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Those pesky Israelis... just won't disappear like they're supposed to.  Even have the audacity to be willing to fight to maintain their home - how DARE they?  Seriously though, don't you find it interesting that when we receive these new and "enlightened" interpretations of God's word, they all seem to appeal for the dissipation or even destruction of the state of Israel as a home for the Jews?  Coincidence?


It never said that, in fact it said the opposite in a way. It only meant that the Jews who established Israela nd cause trouble clearly don't understand the meaning. But now it's established they still don't.

Edited by Coffey, 08 May 2013 - 01:52 PM.

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#4    GoSC

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:12 PM

View Postand then, on 08 May 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Those pesky Israelis... just won't disappear like they're supposed to.  Even have the audacity to be willing to fight to maintain their home - how DARE they?  Seriously though, don't you find it interesting that when we receive these new and "enlightened" interpretations of God's word, they all seem to appeal for the dissipation or even destruction of the state of Israel as a home for the Jews?  Coincidence?

You're the Christian Zionist not I. Do not Christian Zionists vow that an obscure passage of scripture in Zechariah 13:8-9 has yet to be fulfilled and regards the current state of Israel.

Here is that piece of scripture for all whom may not have a Bible handy:

And it will come about in all the land,
Declares the Lord,
That two parts in it will be cut off and perish;
But the third will be left in it.

And I will bring the third part through fire,
Refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are my people,'
And they will say, 'The Lord is my God.'


Zechariah 13:8-9

So basically what you are saying is God raised this oppressive regime and then will destroy 2/3 of the current Jewish Israelis and leave 1/3 of the Jewish Israelis alive to lead humbled and contrite lives and basically will love their neighbors (the Palestinians).

Christian Zionism believes the Zionists have inalienable rights to the land.

What Christians such as myself believe is that the Palestinians have lived continuously in these lands for 1,300 years and have no rights.

We see prophecy and the Word of God directly conflicting with and contradicting Zionism. Thus, we go with the word of God and reject Zionism and its apartheid policies because it was these very same social issues and disobedience that led God to put the ancient Jews into the Babylonian captivity IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Edited by B Jenkins, 08 May 2013 - 03:14 PM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#5    Corp

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:58 PM

Peace and justice eh? Given the history of the Jewish people I'd be asking for my money back. ;)

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#6    and then

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:22 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 08 May 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

You're the Christian Zionist not I. Do not Christian Zionists vow that an obscure passage of scripture in Zechariah 13:8-9 has yet to be fulfilled and regards the current state of Israel.

Here is that piece of scripture for all whom may not have a Bible handy:

And it will come about in all the land,
Declares the Lord,
That two parts in it will be cut off and perish;
But the third will be left in it.

And I will bring the third part through fire,
Refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are my people,'
And they will say, 'The Lord is my God.'


Zechariah 13:8-9

So basically what you are saying is God raised this oppressive regime and then will destroy 2/3 of the current Jewish Israelis and leave 1/3 of the Jewish Israelis alive to lead humbled and contrite lives and basically will love their neighbors (the Palestinians).

Christian Zionism believes the Zionists have inalienable rights to the land.

What Christians such as myself believe is that the Palestinians have lived continuously in these lands for 1,300 years and have no rights.

We see prophecy and the Word of God directly conflicting with and contradicting Zionism. Thus, we go with the word of God and reject Zionism and its apartheid policies because it was these very same social issues and disobedience that led God to put the ancient Jews into the Babylonian captivity IN THE FIRST PLACE.
I said no such thing - YOU did - God raised no repressive regime.  He kept His word and regathered Israel from the nations to bring them home to the land.  I agree that they are still in disobedience.  If your problem is that you cannot accept a God who would destroy 2/3 of His own people for disobedience you need to take that up with Him.  But while we're on the subject BJ, if you are familiar with the book of Revelation you'd know that He is going to eradicate about 2/3 of ALL life before the final war is over.  Disobedience seems to be a REALLY touchy infraction for him.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#7    AlasBabylon

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:18 PM

.


Are the "jews" who now occupy Palestine Israelites or Edomites ?


Ezekiel 36 says the Edomites will spitefully occupy God's ancient Holy Land.



In the 2nd century BC,  Israel's enemy, Edom [Greek/Latin = Idumea], lost a war
with Israel. Then the Prince/High Priest of Israel did a very evil thing... he forced
the "conversion" of Israel's Edomite enemies and the Edomites became "jews"
[Josephus - Antiquities Book XIII, CHAPTER 9.1]

At the time of Christ,  Edomite-jews had taken over the palace and temple. King Herod
was an Edomite-jew. The "wailing wall" is said to be a remnant of Herod's remodelled
addition to the temple [sometimes called Herod's third temple.]



.

Edited by AlasBabylon, 08 May 2013 - 05:25 PM.


#8    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 02:41 AM

View Postand then, on 08 May 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Those pesky palestinians... just won't disappear like they're supposed to.  Even have the audacity to be willing to fight to maintain their home - how DARE they?  Seriously though, don't you find it interesting that when we receive these new and "enlightened" interpretations of God's word, they all seem to appeal for the dissipation or even destruction of the state of Palestine as a home for the Palestinians?  Coincidence?

*whistles* :P

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I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#9    and then

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 08:48 AM

View PostSir Wearer of Hats, on 09 May 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

*whistles* :P
The stories are remarkably similar I think.  When I was growing up in the 60's I felt for Israel because I perceived them to be an "under dog".  They were fighting for survival and appeared to be sorely mistreated by all.  TODAY that role is held by the Palestinians.  I really do understand why people have a natural affinity for supporting them.  But when they overlook all the evil done by one side and blame everything on Israel then I don't respect them.  Call it my own tip of the hat to, (dare I say it?) "fairness" :)

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#10    GoSC

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 08:11 PM

View Postand then, on 08 May 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

I said no such thing - YOU did - God raised no repressive regime.  He kept His word and regathered Israel from the nations to bring them home to the land.  I agree that they are still in disobedience.  If your problem is that you cannot accept a God who would destroy 2/3 of His own people for disobedience you need to take that up with Him.  But while we're on the subject BJ, if you are familiar with the book of Revelation you'd know that He is going to eradicate about 2/3 of ALL life before the final war is over.  Disobedience seems to be a REALLY touchy infraction for him.

You missed the whole irony of the obscure passage of prophecy in Zechariah 13:8-9 how it contradicts passages of Israel's regathering in passages such as Deuteronomy 30:20, Ezekiel 36:8-12, 33-36, etc. Christian Zionism doesn't hold up to scriptural prophecy and scrutiny.

Say that obscure piece of prophecy in Zechariah occured today, this very day, 05/09/13, well... um there's only going to be 1.5-2 million Israeli Jews left in Israel. Yet, read those passages I posted above and see if I am not right. I believe, and this is not just my opinion alone among Christians is that Christian Zionism is a heresy and corruption of the Bible. It is a warwongering and militant view of scriptures.

1.5-2 million Israel Jews left alive in Israel if Zechariah's prophecy is fulfilled today... hmm... :no:

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#11    GoSC

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:11 PM

View Postand then, on 08 May 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Those pesky Israelis... just won't disappear like they're supposed to.  Even have the audacity to be willing to fight to maintain their home - how DARE they?  Seriously though, don't you find it interesting that when we receive these new and "enlightened" interpretations of God's word, they all seem to appeal for the dissipation or even destruction of the state of Israel as a home for the Jews?  Coincidence?

Did you know 41% of Israelis live in the Central District and Tel Aviv alone? And if we include the Jerusalem District, it amounts to 53% of Israel's total population!

Central District, 24% of Israelis
Posted Image

Tel Aviv, 17% of Israelis
Posted Image

Northern District, 17% of Israelis (60% of Arab Israelis according to  the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics)
Posted Image

Southern District, 14% of Israelis
Posted Image

Haifa District, 12% of Israelis
Posted Image

Jerusalem District, 12% of Israelis
Posted Image

Judea And Samaria Areas, 4% of Israelis
Posted Image


Posted Image


There is no doubt that the Palestinians refugees can be granted the right of return.

Emigration [edit]

For many years definitive data on Israeli emigration was unavailable.[38] In The Israeli Diaspora sociologist Stephen J. Gold maintains that calculation of Jewish emigration has been a contentious issue, explaining, "Since Zionism, the philosophy that underlies the existence of the Jewish state, calls for return home of the world's Jews, the opposite movement – Israelis leaving the Jewish state to reside elsewhere – clearly presents an ideological and demographic problem."[39]

In the past several decades, emigration (yerida) has seen a considerable increase. From 1990 to 2005, 230,000 Israelis left the country; a large proportion of these departures included people who initially immigrated to Israel and then reversed their course (48% of all post-1990 departures and even 60% of 2003 and 2004 departures were former immigrants to Israel). 8% of Jewish immigrants in the post-1990 period left Israel, while 15% of non-Jewish immigrants did. In 2005 alone, 21,500 Israelis left the country and had not yet returned at the end of 2006; among them 73% were Jews, 5% Arabs, and 22% "Others" (mostly non-Jewish immigrants, with Jewish ancestry, from USSR). At the same time, 10,500 Israelis came back to Israel after over one year abroad; 84% were Jews, 9% Others, and 7% Arabs.[40]

According to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, as of 2005, 650,000 Israelis had left the country for over one year and not returned. Of them, 530,000 are still alive today. This number does not include the children born overseas. It should also be noted that Israeli law grants citizenship only to the first generation of children born to Israeli emigrants.

http://en.wikipedia....rael#Emigration

Edited by B Jenkins, 09 May 2013 - 09:21 PM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#12    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:20 PM

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#13    GoSC

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 10:02 AM

Here is a repost of mine and sound refutation of Christian Zionism!

The Bible can be problematic if one reads it too literally. For instance:

16 I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth, so that if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your descendants can also be numbered. Genesis 13:16

5 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” Genesis 15:5

In 1939, it is estimated that there were 18 million Jews worldwide. In 1945,  it is estimated that there were 12 million Jews worldwide. In 2012, it is estimated there were roughly 14 million Jews worldwide. Roughly 50% live in the United States, and 50% live in Israel.

By comparision, Arabs make up 5% of the world population of 7 billion at 367.4 million.

Yet...

18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,

“To your descendants I have given this land,
From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates: Genesis 15:18

How is a population so small as 14 million going to possess all that land? How is a population so small that has only grown by 2 million since 1945?

Something is fishy here because the math and the promises made to Abraham simply does not add up.

A mere 14 million souls are going to possess the land from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates? Puh, do I look stupid to you?

But the David Kingdom was the closest Israel would ever achieve this back in 1000-926 BCE. So I guess, fellow Bible readers, one can surmise the promise of Abraham was fulfilled through King David and it lasted roughly 74 years.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#14    AlasBabylon

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 10:21 AM

.

.

Jenkins

The promise to Abraham also includes the descendants of his son, Ishmael [Arabs.]

God knew tiny Israel could not hold Israelites numbering as the sand and stars...
that is why God arranged for Assyria to conquer and scatter the Northern Kingdom
of Israel... and Babylon to conquer Jerusalem and remove most of the Kingdom of Judah...
only a portion of Judah returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple at Cyrus' decree.


Speaking of Cyrus... over a century before Cyrus was born... Assyria had resettled
Israelites into the "cities of the Medes"... Cyrus' Persians were a lesser people
connected with the Medes... makes one wonder who those Persians really were...
especially since Persians like Israelites were divided into 10 to 12 tribes
[10 or 12 tribes depending upon the ancient Greek historian who is telling the story.]
God called Cyrus [who united the Medes and Persians]  "Anointed"... a term usually
reserved for the Kings of Israel.



.

Edited by AlasBabylon, 10 May 2013 - 10:31 AM.


#15    GoSC

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 10:41 AM

View PostAlasBabylon, on 10 May 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

.

.

Jenkins

The promise to Abraham also includes the descendants of his son, Ishmael [Arabs.]

God knew tiny Israel could not hold Israelites numbering as the sand and stars...
that is why God arranged for Assyria to conquer and scatter the Northern Kingdom
of Israel... and Babylon to conquer Jerusalem and remove most of the Kingdom of Judah...
only a portion of Judah returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple at Cyrus' decree.


Speaking of Cyrus... over a century before Cyrus was born... Assyria had resettled
Israelites into the "cities of the Medes"... Cyrus' Persians were a lesser people
connected with the Medes... makes one wonder who those Persians really were...
especially since Persians like Israelites were divided into 10 to 12 tribes
[10 or 12 tribes depending upon the ancient Greek historian who is telling the story.]
God called Cyrus [who united the Medes and Persians]  "Anointed"... a term usually
reserved for the Kings of Israel.



.

Indeed. There are 367.4 million Arabs in the world today. There are 81 million Persians in the world today. And there are 14 million Jews in the world today (just roughly 2 million up from 1945). This presents quite a load of evidence that some Biblical world views are definitely eschewed concerning the promises of Abraham.

Edited by B Jenkins, 10 May 2013 - 10:41 AM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).




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