Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * - - 2 votes

Can't Wish Away Facts About Immigration

illegal immigration

  • Please log in to reply
93 replies to this topic

#46    Wickian

Wickian

    Doppelganger

  • Member
  • 4,071 posts
  • Joined:11 May 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA

  • Save it for Queen Doppelpoppellus!

Posted 11 May 2013 - 02:50 PM

I wouldn't call over 300 million underpopulated.


#47    Myles

Myles

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 5,016 posts
  • Joined:08 Jan 2007
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 May 2013 - 03:02 PM

Sure, more people can fit, but the country is unable to take care of what they have now.   Adding 11+ million more isn't going to benefit in any way.


#48    Jessica Christ

Jessica Christ

    jeanne d'arc, je te suivrai

  • Member
  • 3,611 posts
  • Joined:27 May 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Currently in the middle of this land called life, exit is here and near...

  • It seems so important now but you will get over.
    -AF

Posted 11 May 2013 - 03:16 PM

View PostMichelle, on 11 May 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:

If you don't identify with liberals, who, pray tell, do you identify with? Inquiring minds would like to know.

I've never self-identified myself with conservativism. It is the catagory you have put anyone who doesn't agree with you in.

It's sad you live in such a black and white world.  I suppose from such a high pedestal it would appear that way.

View PostMichelle, on 11 May 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

I'm disappointed...I've read a lot of your posts and I didn't expect you to pull the racist card. I'm talking pure economics.

Excellent suggestion contained in the final thought above!

Instead of wanting to discuss fellow posters some will continue to prefer to discuss topics.

The topic here is what was contained in the OP and on that score the study presented in the OP lacks veracity.

View PostMichelle, on 11 May 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

I wasn't the one that brought up race. I don't care what the "American policies" are. We have to have some sort of control over who immigrates to this country and how many. We can't be a sanctuary or an economical opportunity for everyone, as much as I would like us to be.

If I had my way, the entire US would be a sanctuary for every abused or endangered animal on the planet, but that isn't going to happen either. At some point, you've got to think about how much you can realistically accommodate.

Others do care what American policies are and their corresponding views will be more informed through scholarship, less alarmist and emotional, and less about "us vs them" narratives which are rapidly becoming outdated among broad sections of society.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 11 May 2013 - 03:55 PM.


#49    Myles

Myles

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 5,016 posts
  • Joined:08 Jan 2007
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 May 2013 - 03:21 PM

View PostMichelle, on 11 May 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

I wasn't the one that brought up race. I don't care what the "American policies" are. We have to have some sort of control over who immigrates to this country and how many. We can't be a sanctuary or an economical opportunity for everyone, as much as I would like us to be.

If I had my way, the entire US would be a sanctuary for every abused or endangered animal on the planet, but that isn't going to happen either. At some point, you've got to think about how much you can realistically accommodate.

This is a very good post.   The time has past for allowing everyone into the country.   It's not responsible.


#50    Jessica Christ

Jessica Christ

    jeanne d'arc, je te suivrai

  • Member
  • 3,611 posts
  • Joined:27 May 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Currently in the middle of this land called life, exit is here and near...

  • It seems so important now but you will get over.
    -AF

Posted 11 May 2013 - 03:31 PM

View PostMyles, on 11 May 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Sure, more people can fit, but the country is unable to take care of what they have now.   Adding 11+ million more isn't going to benefit in any way.

Those 11 million people are already here contributing to society by working. Even pro-business Republicans understand the need for sensible immigration reform and are becoming partners with us on crafting a more comprehensible solution than simply requiring a labor force and not giving them the full benefit of citizenship.

It is understandable some simply do not want these immigrants to live here. Deporting them all is the only way to get rid of them now and that is not currently on the table as an option.

Business as is would suffer too much if we used deportation as a tool which is why we are not going to, the low prices we pay for many products and services would increase causing more suffering to those who claim they already are.

In my area most people are living better than their parents or grandparents did which is why we believe in this country and the direction we have been moving in over a span of several decades under both Republican and Democratic administrations. We are only wanting sensible immigration reform here. Our city just recently named a heavily used and historic downtown boulevard after Cesar Chavez. Only a few old codgers rose their alarmist voices in complaint. The rest of us honor the migrant worker.

No sensible legislators are viewing deportation as an option. It is understandable some simply would want deportation instead, or maybe another solution if they have even thought it out since it seems their focus only seems to be "we don't want them here" and "close the borders" and both of those sentiments seem reactionary and unrealistic when it comes to crafting sensible legislation.

What a few want and the direction the majority are moving toward are at odds. It seems momentum will decide in the end.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 11 May 2013 - 03:37 PM.


#51    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 14,829 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

  • fmerton.blogspot.com

Posted 11 May 2013 - 03:37 PM

An educated, healthy population in the end is the only real resource that matters.  In the end the dominant nations will be those with the most productive populations.  Right now that is the US, but it is falling behind, and one of the reasons is its restrictive immigration policies.  The initiative and drive and innovation and new ideas that new immigrants bring is going elsewhere.

The US could easily handle a billion people -- three times its present population -- with some good land use laws and a few changes in its culture.  Other countries sustain high living standards with even more density.  In the end it is this count that will make all the difference, since productivity is going to steadily equalize.


#52    Jessica Christ

Jessica Christ

    jeanne d'arc, je te suivrai

  • Member
  • 3,611 posts
  • Joined:27 May 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Currently in the middle of this land called life, exit is here and near...

  • It seems so important now but you will get over.
    -AF

Posted 11 May 2013 - 03:46 PM

Also, immigration is slowing down, which might not be a cause to celebrate since on both the bottom and upper tiers of our labor force, we are not going to have enough manpower or brainpower, respectively, to fill those positions.

Quote

While the foreign-born population size is a record, immigrants’ share of the total population is below the U.S. peak of just under 15% during a previous immigration wave from 1890 to 1920 that was dominated by arrivals from Europe.


Not only that, the rate of illegal immigration has actually slowed down since 2007. Granted, the results aren't statistically significant—it must be difficult to take a head count of people purposefully trying to avoid being detected. But another Pew study from last April shows that net migration from Mexico trailed off between 2005 and 2010. But that may speak more to the state of our own economy:

The standstill appears to be the result of many factors, including the weakened U.S. job and housing construction markets, heightened border enforcement, a rise in deportations, the growing dangers associated with illegal border crossings, the long-term decline in Mexico’s birth rates and broader economic conditions in Mexico.


So immigrants' share of the U.S. population is big, but still not as big as that of the late 19th and early 20th century, and Mexican immigration is at a net low for the first time in at least five years.

Pew Research Hispanic Center Illegal Immigration Has Slowed Down Since 2007

So we have two problems, who will do the bottom of the barrel jobs and who will do our science and engineering jobs? We need a two-pronged approach, one to attract brainpower from Asian countries, and the second to reattract manpower from other countries.

A third prong would be to keep manufacutring jobs here instead of Romneyish outsourcing them...what most others would consider "good blue collar jobs" that we have been hemorrhaging. Although this has nothing to do with immigration per se but most can see how they are related and affect us as a country. We are bleeding blue.

We can either do nothing, which allows companies on both ends of the market to exploit their workers, as is many Asian immigrants are working for US companies but since the visas and citizenship ques are limited many tech companies are hiring these Asian immigrants at an unfair wage uncomparable to what other citizens in the same jobs are making. On the other end we have immigrants doing a lot of hard work but also being underpayed and in other forms not given the full benefit of what a worker should receive.

It is not just the science and engineering jobs. When we don't have enough doctors for our citizens and when grocery prices go up, which will continue to happen and only get worse if we don't reform immigration, we will then face even huger problems as a country.

Not to get into any debate but when Asian immigrants is being discussed this would also include those from India.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 11 May 2013 - 03:55 PM.


#53    Michelle

Michelle

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 15,818 posts
  • Joined:03 Jan 2004
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Tennessee

  • Eleanor Roosevelt: Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.

Posted 11 May 2013 - 05:35 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 11 May 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

An educated, healthy population in the end is the only real resource that matters.  In the end the dominant nations will be those with the most productive populations.  Right now that is the US, but it is falling behind, and one of the reasons is its restrictive immigration policies.  The initiative and drive and innovation and new ideas that new immigrants bring is going elsewhere.

The US could easily handle a billion people -- three times its present population -- with some good land use laws and a few changes in its culture.  Other countries sustain high living standards with even more density.  In the end it is this count that will make all the difference, since productivity is going to steadily equalize.

Educated and productive are the key words there. The people that are flooding across our borders illegaly are not educated and we have more than enough of our own population to fill minimum wage jobs. Just recently we have started to try and regulate immigration to the people who will be productive and beneficial to us as other countries have been doing for years. But, of course, that makes us racist. The US is falling behind because manufacturing has moved to other countries where there are no minimum wage laws. That, in itself, has lowered our standard of living dramatically.

And why don't we just devastate the environment by urbanizing every square inch? I mean, why on earth do we need all of these trees and a healthy ecosystem? China is doing fine without any of that nonsense, right?


#54    xFelix

xFelix

    Astral Projection

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 653 posts
  • Joined:30 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

  • Yea I'm Pagan, oh no!

Posted 12 May 2013 - 05:23 PM

View PostMichelle, on 11 May 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

Educated and productive are the key words there. The people that are flooding across our borders illegaly are not educated and we have more than enough of our own population to fill minimum wage jobs. Just recently we have started to try and regulate immigration to the people who will be productive and beneficial to us as other countries have been doing for years. But, of course, that makes us racist. The US is falling behind because manufacturing has moved to other countries where there are no minimum wage laws. That, in itself, has lowered our standard of living dramatically.

And why don't we just devastate the environment by urbanizing every square inch? I mean, why on earth do we need all of these trees and a healthy ecosystem? China is doing fine without any of that nonsense, right?

So again you single out an entire group of people and declare that "they are not educated".
It is good to be told that I am not educated, meanwhile I seem to know how to read the federal law and you do not.


As for how a qualification system can be manipulated, the poster was stating that our qualification system has been manipulated not by those who migrate, but by those making the guidelines of the system.

Once again for an average immigrant the cost of entering 'Merica legally is in the thousands range.. Do you really believe that any working class citizen in say Mexico has thousands just laying around? Does having these thousands make a difference as to whether or not the bad apples mix in? Well, considering that the drug cartels hold millions.. NO.

Then who is being prevented from entering? Those who are hard workers, who just wish for a fair chance within a country that can provide the chances.

The thing is these poor folk have no idea they are trying to enter a country that has been taught to be racist against them..
You know back when Africans were slaves, they used many of the same arguments to continue the slavery and racism over them..
"They aren't educated, they are violent, they aren't the same as us..." Nope wasn't racism at all.

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#55    Jessica Christ

Jessica Christ

    jeanne d'arc, je te suivrai

  • Member
  • 3,611 posts
  • Joined:27 May 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Currently in the middle of this land called life, exit is here and near...

  • It seems so important now but you will get over.
    -AF

Posted 12 May 2013 - 08:45 PM

View PostxFelix, on 12 May 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:



So again you single out an entire group of people and declare that "they are not educated".

It is good to be told that I am not educated, meanwhile I seem to know how to read the federal law and you do not.


As for how a qualification system can be manipulated, the poster was stating that our qualification system has been manipulated not by those who migrate, but by those making the guidelines of the system.

Once again for an average immigrant the cost of entering 'Merica legally is in the thousands range.. Do you really believe that any working class citizen in say Mexico has thousands just laying around? Does having these thousands make a difference as to whether or not the bad apples mix in? Well, considering that the drug cartels hold millions.. NO.

Then who is being prevented from entering? Those who are hard workers, who just wish for a fair chance within a country that can provide the chances.

The thing is these poor folk have no idea they are trying to enter a country that has been taught to be racist against them..

You know back when Africans were slaves, they used many of the same arguments to continue the slavery and racism over them..

"They aren't educated, they are violent, they aren't the same as us..." Nope wasn't racism at all.


Add to those facts that anyone who claims they do not care what American policies are will have a weak top-down view of these issues.

View PostMichelle, on 11 May 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

I don't care what the "American policies" are.

They will instead solely have a bottom-up view only narrowly informed by those immediately around them and not using the same information that others including our policy makers are now using.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 12 May 2013 - 08:53 PM.


#56    Michelle

Michelle

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 15,818 posts
  • Joined:03 Jan 2004
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Tennessee

  • Eleanor Roosevelt: Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.

Posted 13 May 2013 - 01:10 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 12 May 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:


They will instead solely have a bottom-up view only narrowly informed by those immediately around them and not using the same information that others including our policy makers are now using.

Tell us how you don't discuss posters again?

That's right, I don't care what American policies are if I think they are wrong. Like how I think gay marriage should be legal. I think it is wrong that it isn't legal in all states and I will do everything in my power to change that.


#57    Big Jim

Big Jim

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 293 posts
  • Joined:26 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia, Ohio

Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:04 AM

I am constantly amazed that people attribute racial bias to a set of laws just because a particular race chooses to break those laws.  Our immigration laws, right or wrong, are crafted to apply to all immigrants and are meant to be enforced at all borders.  If conditions in various countries around the world cause their citizens to want to leave, that is a problem in the country in question, it needn't become ours.  It is commendable that the United States has traditionally extended the welcome mat to all people.  But we also pride ourselves on being a nation of laws, not men.  Those laws apply to natural born citizens as well as immigrants.  So, why is it racist if Hispanics choose to break our laws?  What would we call it if it was Canadians surging across our border instead of Mexicans?  Immigrants from countries with whom we share an ocean are forced to follow the proper procedures to come to the United States.  Why should the same laws not apply to immigrants from countries with whom we share a border?  What kind of racism is it that causes Asians to follow the law while Central Americans get a pass?  I think we are only inviting trouble if we send the message that our laws don't matter if you belong to a certain group.  If millions of people can break our laws to get here and are forgiven because we're afraid to enforce them lest we be called racists, then what incentive will they have to follow our laws once they're here?
As a young man I tried to emigrate to Canada.  No, I was not fleeing the draft.  There were organizations to help those that were.  I merely liked the country and naively decided to move there.  But they had laws to keep out the unskilled, which I was at that age.  I had, nor have, no animosity towards Canada because they enforced their laws.  I didn't cross surreptitiously through the miles of forest along the border.  I stayed home and made a life for myself here.  I didn't feel that Canada owed me anything.  We need to take the same stance with those that want to come here.  We can maintain our image as the Land of Opportunity while at the same time not becoming the cesspool of the world.  If we're fair to all then there's nothing racist about it.


#58    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 14,829 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

  • fmerton.blogspot.com

Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:23 AM

The racial bias that I perceive is one of American "whites" trying to keep the States white.  It is not expressed openly, but that is the gut thing going on -- the fear that the American white majority will be swamped, and to an Asian or an African or a Latin American or an Indian (subcontinent), this is racism.

As far as the "illegals" problem is concerned, I see that as a consequence of restrictive American immigration laws.  People do what they perceive is in their best interest and the best interest of their families.  If you pass laws blocking this, they will work around them.  Such prohibitive laws rarely work, and should not be even attempted except when there is no viable alternative, and so often lead to situations such as the States now faces with a significant "illegal" population who naturally do not feel they are part of the society and hence do not feel loyalty to it.


#59    Big Jim

Big Jim

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 293 posts
  • Joined:26 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amelia, Ohio

Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:41 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 13 May 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

The racial bias that I perceive is one of American "whites" trying to keep the States white.  It is not expressed openly, but that is the gut thing going on -- the fear that the American white majority will be swamped, and to an Asian or an African or a Latin American or an Indian (subcontinent), this is racism.

As far as the "illegals" problem is concerned, I see that as a consequence of restrictive American immigration laws.  People do what they perceive is in their best interest and the best interest of their families.  If you pass laws blocking this, they will work around them.  Such prohibitive laws rarely work, and should not be even attempted except when there is no viable alternative, and so often lead to situations such as the States now faces with a significant "illegal" population who naturally do not feel they are part of the society and hence do not feel loyalty to it.

The laws of the US are not enacted by any one race and since whites are barely a majority it's too late to "keep the States white" if indeed that was ever a consideration.  How do you claim to know what is not expressed openly?  You state it as a matter of fact while it is clearly just your opinion.

Laws in general are enacted precisely to prevent people from doing what is in their best interest without consideration of society as a whole.  As an example, there is a rich neighborhood not far from where I live that is full of mansions.  It would benefit me greatly to live in one of those homes and also to drive the luxury car in the garage.  But I can't just climb the fence and take possession merely because I perceive it to be in my best interest.  There are "prohibitive laws"  in the way that are working quite well.  Now if several million like minded individuals had broken those same laws and gotten away with it I might be encouraged to improve my lot in life.  Never mind that life would definitely not be improved for the current legal owners.


#60    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 14,829 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

  • fmerton.blogspot.com

Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:59 AM

Well, I said it is my perception: it is the perception of a large part of the world's population and because of that does the US considerable harm.






Also tagged with illegal immigration

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users