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Confiscate, Confiscate, Confiscate


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#61    Frank Merton

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 05:06 PM

Yea I thought  about my unfairness in mentioning it, but I didn't see how I could avoid doing so.  We have to remember that people are creatures of their place in history and so can be blind to such hypocrisies, or at least have found ways to rationalize them.


#62    F3SS

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 05:11 PM

Slavery is one of those things that is more about a dark part of human history rather than a US thing. To be blunt, that's just how it was back then. Keeping that out of the argument, the otherwise great wisdom of the forefathers is, to me, hard to argue with.

Edited by F3SS, 12 May 2013 - 05:12 PM.


#63    Drayno

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 05:15 PM

View PostThe Silver Thong, on 11 May 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Corprate America controls government so there is no left or right aka dems or repub`s in politics anymore. The White House is but a stage that actors perform.

Amen!

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#64    Frank Merton

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 05:18 PM

They were all classically educated men of the landed gentry of English or Irish ancestry, use to considerable wealth and political position.  Other than all that, they were an extremely diverse group representing completely contrary points of view.


#65    F3SS

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 05:21 PM

They were diverse. Some big government, others not. Some slave owners, others not. I'm sure they were wealthy too. I remember hearing about George Washington being so incredibly rich that in scale of today's money he'd probably have a couple hundred billion dollars.


#66    danielost

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:17 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 12 May 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

The Jeffersonian idea, as I get it, is that we have certain rights just because we were born human beings, and that these rights are inalienable -- they cannot be sold or taken or even given away.  Of course Jefferson owned slaves.

He. Also freed them when he died.  Maybe a little late on the freedom part.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#67    danielost

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:20 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 12 May 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

They were all classically educated men of the landed gentry of English or Irish ancestry, use to considerable wealth and political position.  Other than all that, they were an extremely diverse group representing completely contrary points of view.

And they were the ones who set up our supposedly free education.  Not so free today.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#68    danielost

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:22 PM

View PostF3SS, on 12 May 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

They were diverse. Some big government, others not. Some slave owners, others not. I'm sure they were wealthy too. I remember hearing about George Washington being so incredibly rich that in scale of today's money he'd probably have a couple hundred billion dollars.

It was his land that wahington dc was built on.  Land he donated for the city.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#69    danielost

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:27 PM

View PostF3SS, on 12 May 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

Slavery is one of those things that is more about a dark part of human history rather than a US thing. To be blunt, that's just how it was back then. Keeping that out of the argument, the otherwise great wisdom of the forefathers is, to me, hard to argue with.

There were two types of slavery.  During and before rome the slaves were war captives or convects.  During the european erea is the bad type.  But, we also had indentured servents.  This more closely reflects the bible's idea of slavery.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#70    danielost

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:31 PM

The united states, started as thirteen equal states(countries) working as one.  They found they needed a strong centrol government.  But the states are not supposed to be subservent to the federal government or it to them.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#71    Kowalski

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 07:02 PM

View Postdanielost, on 12 May 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

He. Also freed them when he died.  Maybe a little late on the freedom part.

From http://www.monticell...son-and-slavery





Quote



Thomas Jefferson and Slavery

Thomas Jefferson was a consistent opponent of slavery his whole life.  Calling it a “moral depravity” and a “hideous blot,” he believed that slavery presented the greatest threat to the survival of the new American nation.  Jefferson also thought that slavery was contrary to the laws of nature, which decreed that everyone had a right to personal liberty.  These views were radical in a world where unfree labor was the norm.
At the time of the American Revolution, Jefferson was actively involved in legislation that he hoped would result in slavery’s abolition.  In 1778, he drafted a Virginia law that prohibited the importation of enslaved Africans.  In 1784, he proposed an ordinance that would ban slavery in the Northwest territories.  But Jefferson always maintained that the decision to emancipate slaves would have to be part of a democratic process; abolition would be stymied until slaveowners consented to free their human property together in a large-scale act of emancipation.  To Jefferson, it was anti-democratic and contrary to the principles of the American Revolution for the federal government to enact abolition or for only a few planters to free their slaves.
Although Jefferson continued to advocate for abolition, the reality was that slavery was only becoming more entrenched.  The slave population in Virginia skyrocketed from 292,627 in 1790 to 469,757 in 1830.  Jefferson had assumed that the abolition of the slave trade would weaken slavery and hasten its end.  Instead, slavery only became more widespread and profitable.  To try to erode Virginians’ support for slavery, he discouraged the cultivation of crops heavily dependent on slave labor—tobacco—and encouraged the introduction of crops that needed little or no slave labor—wheat, sugar maples, short-grained rice, olive trees, and wine grapes.  But by the 1800s, Virginia’s most valuable commodity and export was neither crops nor land, but slaves.
Jefferson’s belief in the necessity of ending slavery never changed.  From the mid-1770s until his death, he advocated the same plan of gradual emancipation. First, the transatlantic slave trade would be abolished.  Second, slaveowners would “improve” slavery’s most violent features, by bettering (Jefferson used the term “ameliorating”) living conditions and moderating physical punishment.  Third, all born into slavery after a certain date would be declared free, followed by total abolition.  Like others of his day, he supported the removal of newly freed slaves from the United States. The unintended effect of Jefferson’s plan was that his goal of “improving” slavery as a step towards ending it was used as an argument for its perpetuation.  Pro-slavery advocates after Jefferson’s death argued that if slavery could be “improved,” abolition was unnecessary.
Jefferson’s belief in the necessity of abolition was intertwined with his racial beliefs.  He thought that white Americans and enslaved blacks constituted two “separate nations” who could not live together peacefully in the same country.  Jefferson’s belief that blacks were racially inferior and “as incapable as children,” coupled with slaves’ presumed resentment of their former owners, made their removal from the United States an integral part of Jefferson’s emancipation scheme.  Influenced by the Haitian Revolution and an aborted rebellion in Virginia in 1800, Jefferson believed that American slaves’ deportation—whether to Africa or the West Indies—was an essential consequence of emancipation.
Jefferson wrote that slavery was like holding “a wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go.” He thought that his cherished federal union, the world’s first democratic experiment, would be destroyed by slavery.  To emancipate slaves on American soil, Jefferson thought, would result in a large-scale race war that would be as brutal and deadly as the slave revolt in Haiti in 1791.  But he also believed that to keep slaves in bondage, with part of America in favor of abolition and part of America in favor of perpetuating slavery, could only result in a civil war that would destroy the union.  Jefferson’s latter prediction was correct: in 1861, the contest over slavery sparked a bloody civil war and the creation of two nations—Union and Confederacy—in the place of one.

Also:

Quote


1774 July. (A Summary View of the Rights of British America). "The abolition of domestic slavery is the great object of desire in those colonies where it was unhappily introduced in their infant state. But previous to the infranchisement of the slaves we have, it is necessary to exclude all further importations from Africa. Yet our repeated attempts to effect this by prohibitions, and by imposing duties which might amount to a prohibition, have been hitherto defeated by his majesty negative: thus preferring the immediate advantages of a few British corsairs to the lasting interests of the American states, and to the rights of human nature deeply wounded by this infamous practice. Nay the single interposition of an interested individual against a law was scarcely ever known to fail of success, tho' in the opposite scale were placed the interests of a whole country. That this is so shameful an abuse of a power trusted with his majesty for other purposes, as if not reformed would call for some legal restrictions."[2]

1776 before June 13. (Draft of Virginia Constitution). "No person hereafter coming into this country shall be held within the same in slavery under any pretext whatever."[3]

1776 June. (Draft of Declaration of Independence). "He [George III] has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating it's most sacred rights of life & liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piractical warfare, the opprobium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the CHRISTIAN king of Great Britain. Determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought & sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce: and that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people upon whom he also obtruded them; thus paying off former crimes committed against the liberties of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against lives of another.

Taken from http://www.monticell...nd-emancipation


#72    Jessica Christ

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 08:08 PM

Whether some want to rationalize slavery or the founders, those good points in and of themselves stand alone and we won't argue them.

They do not take away from the fact that some used their religious beliefs and scriptures to condone slavery...

...while others who do believe in scripture can see the folly of that so we will continue to advocate the detangling of government and religion.

Give to Cesar what is his and give to God what is his. No need to combine, ever.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 12 May 2013 - 08:13 PM.


#73    Babe Ruth

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 08:55 PM

View PostF3SS, on 12 May 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

Slavery is one of those things that is more about a dark part of human history rather than a US thing. To be blunt, that's just how it was back then. Keeping that out of the argument, the otherwise great wisdom of the forefathers is, to me, hard to argue with.

In the end the US Constitution is a political document.  A very good one.  Not a perfect one, ESPECIALLY because it is a political document.  Politics demands compromise, and the biggest one was the slavery issue, IMO.


#74    Babe Ruth

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 08:57 PM

No need to combine, ever.

I like that! :tu:


#75    Glorfindel

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 09:34 PM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 11 May 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

I don't share your pessimism Daniel. My vote counts. In fact I am at my polling station now about to vote.

Are you sure it counted during the 2000 election?





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