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Trying to trace OLB's missing indians


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#1    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:21 PM

According to the OLB a tribe of Frisians returned home after helping Alexander the Great on his campaign in India , they returned home around the year 330 BC , having left around 1500 BC , is there any way these people could be traced during there time in India ?

After this length of time they would probably consider themselves totally Indian ,and may be thought of by the native people as native Indians , but on their return to Scandinavia  they had kept memories of which parts of the land their ancestors had come from with Friso staying with his people in Staveren , Wichhirte remembering they came from Emude , along with Jons people who gathered they were Alderga people , and others going off to the 7 Islands , and to the citadel at Wallhallagara .

But if the OLB is a true history , who might they have been known as in India during that 1200 years , Alexander found them in a town where they had a large fleet of ships , but it is not stated whether this was on the coast , or on one of the great rivers of India,

are there any clues in the customs of certain Gotras (clans, or tribes ) could they be one of the 49 Gotras , and are there any more modern clues from DNA studies  , where we might get some idea ,

or can we glean any information from some of the great and sacred books of the Hindus , the Buddhists or the Jains  etc.

just starting out on this search so there are no preconcieved results , but just have a couple of  possibilities that people with more knowledge will be able to either straighten out , or point the thread in the right direction . the idea is not trying to steal anyones history or heroes ,but if it has any result it could help to prove or disprove the other world history in the OLB, that is still at odds with that which is commonly held......So if anyone can help , or has any ideas of there own , then please join in . ................Thank in advance for your time ..


#2    The_Spartan

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 07:09 PM

1st. question. What is the validity of the OLB as a historical document?
Has the data in the LOB been verified with other records in other cultures/areas etc?

If you cant address the validity of the OLB, then you  should add a disclaimer that "Assuming the OLB to be a real account of history etc..blah blah"

While considering the Historical Aspects, It is noted that Alexander established settlements and satrapies all along his route to India and in India too. These settlements/satrapies were ruled by his Commanders/Generals of his Army or his vassal kings/conquered kings.
The most important of all Greek settlements outside of Greece was Bactria. In the Indian subcontinent, the important settlements/satrapies were ruled by the Indian Kings Purusha/Porus and Ambhi/Taxiles.

The presence of Greeks in the Indian Subcontinent and South Asia is as per verified data from records/engravings/texts.

What is the evidence data for the presence of Frisians as a tribe in the Indian Sub continent? As long as you have assumptions, it doesn't become verifiable data.
The army of Alexander was not limited to greeks, but constituted of various nationalities, many being mercenaries on hire, many being armies of defeated enemy kingdoms.
So, as long as there is no record pin pointing any Frisian presence, the idea of them being forming a Gotra in India.
But, Many tribes of Bactria in modern day Afghanistan are descended from Ionian Soldiers (kown as Yavanas) who were brought there by Seleucus Nicator (being the Commander of Alexander's Cavalry) of the Seleucid Dynasty to replace the Macedonian Greeks who had wanted to leave Bactria.

There are clans/tribes in pakistan who claim descent from Alexanders Greek  Soldiers.

Quote

Three Pakistani populations residing in northern Pakistan, the Burusho, Kalash and Pathan claim descent from Greek soldiers associated with Alexander's invasion of southwest Asia. Earlier studies have excluded a substantial Greek genetic input into these populations, but left open the question of a smaller contribution. We have now typed 90 binary polymorphisms and 16 multiallelic, short-tandem-repeat (STR) loci mapping to the male-specific portion of the human Y chromosome in 952 males, including 77 Greeks in order to re-investigate this question. In pairwise comparisons between the Greeks and the three Pakistani populations using genetic distance measures sensitive to recent events, the lowest distances were observed between the Greeks and the Pathans. Clade E3b1 lineages, which were frequent in the Greeks but not in Pakistan, were nevertheless observed in two Pathan individuals, one of whom shared a 16 Y-STR haplotype with the Greeks. The worldwide distribution of a shortened (9 Y-STR) version of this haplotype, determined from database information, was concentrated in Macedonia and Greece, suggesting an origin there. Although based on only a few unrelated descendants, this provides strong evidence for a European origin for a small proportion of the Pathan Y chromosomes.
Link

Another link with full access to the paper online is at this link.

NO-ID-EA, try not to refer to anecdotal data and thought exercises, refer to academia.

Edited by The_Spartan, 12 May 2013 - 07:09 PM.

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#3    jaylemurph

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 07:25 PM

I don't think there's much in the way pointing towards the OLB being a legitimate historical source. It may -- may -- reflect some actual cultural beliefs of early Frisian people, but it's so far removed historically from what it purports to tell, and the culture was not literate to preserve the stories intact in a fixed form*, that it is no more useful a historical tool than the Bible. And that's on the slim chance it's not a deliberate fake -- which most of the evidence directly seems to point to.

*From what I've seen, the origin story seems an awful lot like a badly remembered version of Jordanes' De Origine Actibusque Getarum, which is both a logical starting place for a good fake and one well-known in 19th Century circles apt to create such a "joke" (fraud and fake are both not quite the word I'd use, and I think in purpose and function the OLB has a great deal in common with the Voynitch Manuscript).

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#4    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 11:40 PM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 12 May 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

1st. question. What is the validity of the OLB as a historical document?
Has the data in the LOB been verified with other records in other cultures/areas etc?

If you cant address the validity of the OLB, then you  should add a disclaimer that "Assuming the OLB to be a real account of history etc..blah blah"

While considering the Historical Aspects, It is noted that Alexander established settlements and satrapies all along his route to India and in India too. These settlements/satrapies were ruled by his Commanders/Generals of his Army or his vassal kings/conquered kings.
The most important of all Greek settlements outside of Greece was Bactria. In the Indian subcontinent, the important settlements/satrapies were ruled by the Indian Kings Purusha/Porus and Ambhi/Taxiles.

The presence of Greeks in the Indian Subcontinent and South Asia is as per verified data from records/engravings/texts.

What is the evidence data for the presence of Frisians as a tribe in the Indian Sub continent? As long as you have assumptions, it doesn't become verifiable data.
The army of Alexander was not limited to greeks, but constituted of various nationalities, many being mercenaries on hire, many being armies of defeated enemy kingdoms.
So, as long as there is no record pin pointing any Frisian presence, the idea of them being forming a Gotra in India.
But, Many tribes of Bactria in modern day Afghanistan are descended from Ionian Soldiers (kown as Yavanas) who were brought there by Seleucus Nicator (being the Commander of Alexander's Cavalry) of the Seleucid Dynasty to replace the Macedonian Greeks who had wanted to leave Bactria.

There are clans/tribes in pakistan who claim descent from Alexanders Greek  Soldiers.
Link

Another link with full access to the paper online is at this link.

NO-ID-EA, try not to refer to anecdotal data and thought exercises, refer to academia.

Thanks for replying Spartan ..........Unfortunately i dont know whether you have read the book  or not , but it came to light in 1860 , it was published in 1872 by
people who still at that time thought it was genuine , but by 1879 it was discredited and classed as a 19th C forgery , since this time historical scholars
by and large avoid it like the plague , and of course there is not going to be any funding to investigate it with  more modern methods , because people
now fear their careers may be at stake by associating themselves with it .

once before when i started a thread about it the first 2 pages of replies were all to tell me that OLB was a fake , and that i was wasting my time , but as is the way
of the world these days  not one of them had bothered to read any of it , or find out about it except to read the wiki page on it which says its a fake, for them
that was enough , end of story and interest............So i am not sure what accademic resources will be available for a subject that has not been researched.

I note what you say about Bactria but as far as i know Bactria was a seperate kingdom and not part of India , whereas OLB says the fris entered India in the East , but because of harassment from Priests ( presume Brahmins ) they moved further West and settled in the Punjab . so i presume this is where i should look for them first , but 1200 years is a very long time and they could have moved , interbred with natives , died out or possibly thrived as a seperate clan .

One name that sounds like Frisii is the Vrijji (Pali..Vajji ) so thats a start........ Encyclopedia Brittanica says about them , they were a confederation of licchavis and the people of bihar
and were prominant from the 6th century BC to the 4th C CE and that they were an Aristocratic republic . ........Gautama Buddha is said to have modelled the organisational structure of his monastic order ..(Sangha ) on the governmental structure of the Vrijji...........I will need to try to find out what was different in the way
the Vrijji organised their government...............Brittanica also says the marriage of Chandragupta to a licchavi princess helped him establish the foundation of the Mauryan Dynasty..........but it does not say how this helped , so maybe knowing more about the licchavi will throw some light on this .

Thanks for the info on dna tests for Greek DNA in Northern Pakistan , but according to OLB chronology , the frisii only went to Athens around 1627 BC, and had to leave under threat of death from someone called Cecrops in 1553 BC , when they left for India , so they were only in Greece for 74 years .and the cavalry brought by
Seleucas Nicator are not going to be the Indo-Scans as they have been resident  in India and hired by Alexander in India .


#5    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 11:56 PM

View Postjaylemurph, on 12 May 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

I don't think there's much in the way pointing towards the OLB being a legitimate historical source. It may -- may -- reflect some actual cultural beliefs of early Frisian people, but it's so far removed historically from what it purports to tell, and the culture was not literate to preserve the stories intact in a fixed form*, that it is no more useful a historical tool than the Bible. And that's on the slim chance it's not a deliberate fake -- which most of the evidence directly seems to point to.

*From what I've seen, the origin story seems an awful lot like a badly remembered version of Jordanes' De Origine Actibusque Getarum, which is both a logical starting place for a good fake and one well-known in 19th Century circles apt to create such a "joke" (fraud and fake are both not quite the word I'd use, and I think in purpose and function the OLB has a great deal in common with the Voynitch Manuscript).

--Jaylemurph

Thanks Jaylemurph........ I think yours is pretty much the opinion of most people , and it sounds like from what you say that you have read it , i have not read the

Jordanes book , but it sounds like i may need to from what you say ..........one difference at least with the Voynich manuscript and the OLB , i bet they wish

a key to decipher the writing was included in it :yes: and it has some nice pictures .........


#6    The_Spartan

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 06:38 AM

View PostNO-ID-EA, on 12 May 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:


I note what you say about Bactria but as far as i know Bactria was a seperate kingdom and not part of India , whereas OLB says the fris entered India in the East , but because of harassment from Priests ( presume Brahmins ) they moved further West and settled in the Punjab . so i presume this is where i should look for them first , but 1200 years is a very long time and they could have moved , interbred with natives , died out or possibly thrived as a seperate clan .

One name that sounds like Frisii is the Vrijji (Pali..Vajji ) so thats a start........ Encyclopedia Brittanica says about them , they were a confederation of licchavis and the people of bihar
and were prominant from the 6th century BC to the 4th C CE and that they were an Aristocratic republic . ........Gautama Buddha is said to have modelled the organisational structure of his monastic order ..(Sangha ) on the governmental structure of the Vrijji...........I will need to try to find out what was different in the way
the Vrijji organised their government...............Brittanica also says the marriage of Chandragupta to a licchavi princess helped him establish the foundation of the Mauryan Dynasty..........but it does not say how this helped , so maybe knowing more about the licchavi will throw some light on this .

Thanks for the info on dna tests for Greek DNA in Northern Pakistan , but according to OLB chronology , the frisii only went to Athens around 1627 BC, and had to leave under threat of death from someone called Cecrops in 1553 BC , when they left for India , so they were only in Greece for 74 years .and the cavalry brought by
Seleucas Nicator are not going to be the Indo-Scans as they have been resident  in India and hired by Alexander in India .

In your first post you state that

Quote

According to the OLB a tribe of Frisians returned home after helping Alexander the Great on his campaign in India , they returned home around the year 330 BC , having left around 1500 BC , is there any way these people could be traced during there time in India ?

Are you implying that
The Frisians went with Alexander on his conquests or
Joined Alexander's Army in india?
If you were implying that they went with Alexander on his conquests, they would have started with alexander from the west and entered india through the west and not the east, which is contradictory to your statement

Quote

whereas OLB says the fris entered India in the East , but because of harassment from Priests ( presume Brahmins ) they moved further West and settled in the Punjab . so i presume this is where i should look for them first , but 1200 years is a very long time and they could have moved , interbred with natives , died out or possibly thrived as a seperate clan .


Please clairfy the above.

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#7    Abramelin

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:23 AM

Spartan, I think it's best when you first read these 2 chapters of the Oera Linda Book (with Sandbach's translation):


This is about the Geertmen.
http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bc

NOW I WILL RELATE HOW THE GEERTMAN AND MANY FOLLOWERS OF HELLENIA CAME BACK.
http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bp

Scroll down till you reach this sentence:

"After we had been settled 12 times 100 and twice 12 years in the Five Waters (Punjab), whilst our naval warriors were navigating all the seas they could find, came Alexander the King, with a powerful army descending the river towards our villages."


#8    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:41 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 13 May 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Spartan, I think it's best when you first read these 2 chapters of the Oera Linda Book (with Sandbach's translation):


This is about the Geertmen.
http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bc

NOW I WILL RELATE HOW THE GEERTMAN AND MANY FOLLOWERS OF HELLENIA CAME BACK.
http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bp

Scroll down till you reach this sentence:

"After we had been settled 12 times 100 and twice 12 years in the Five Waters (Punjab), whilst our naval warriors were navigating all the seas they could find, came Alexander the King, with a powerful army descending the river towards our villages."

He might call you a Fringe nationalist before exploring this possibility.

The mainstream denies any contact between the Greeks or any other European peoples with Indian before Alexander.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 13 May 2013 - 07:42 AM.


#9    The_Spartan

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:11 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 13 May 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

He might call you a Fringe nationalist before exploring this possibility.

The mainstream denies any contact between the Greeks or any other European peoples with Indian before Alexander.

Maybe, i would.
Your issue? is it relevant to the topic we are debating here?
If not,do not derail a good debate.

I dont have time to waste to debate with you at all, but with NO-ID-EA, yes i do have time to discuss *SNIP*

Edited by Lilly, 13 May 2013 - 09:51 AM.
removed inflammatory remark

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#10    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:35 AM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 13 May 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Maybe, i would.
Your issue? is it relevant to the topic we are debating here?
If not,do not derail a good debate.

I dont have time to waste to debate with you at all, but with NO-ID-EA, yes i do have time to discuss,*SNIP*
Just one more thing before i stop ....would you call these ancient Indians that we are discussing here as Hindus?

Lol nevermind i have already seen all that you have to offer.

Edited by Lilly, 13 May 2013 - 09:53 AM.
quote edit


#11    The_Spartan

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:54 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 13 May 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Spartan, I think it's best when you first read these 2 chapters of the Oera Linda Book (with Sandbach's translation):


This is about the Geertmen.
http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bc

NOW I WILL RELATE HOW THE GEERTMAN AND MANY FOLLOWERS OF HELLENIA CAME BACK.
http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bp

Scroll down till you reach this sentence:

"After we had been settled 12 times 100 and twice 12 years in the Five Waters (Punjab), whilst our naval warriors were navigating all the seas they could find, came Alexander the King, with a powerful army descending the river towards our villages."


So, if as per the OLB

Quote

They were on their way to Athens, but when they heard how things stood there they went with Geert. The sea-king of the Tyrians brought them altogether through the strait which at that time ran into the Red Sea (now re-established as the Suez Canal). At last they landed at the Punjab, called in our language the Five Rivers, because five rivers flow together to the sea. Here they settled, and called it Geertmania. The King of Tyre afterwards, seeing that all his best sailors were gone, sent all his ships with his wild soldiers to catch them, dead or alive. When they arrived at the strait, both the sea and the earth trembled. The land was upheaved so that all the water ran out of the strait, and the muddy shores were raised up like a rampart. This happened on account of the virtues of the Geertmen, as every one can plainly understand.

From which side did these people enter India?
As per above, it states that they crossed from the Mediterranean into the red Sea through a strait.
Was this strait man made or natural?
Any further information is available on this strait?
If you refer to the link there were numerous canals built by different Pharaohs to link the Mediterranean, the Nile River and the red sea.
Now, if the Frisians did use these ancient canals/straits to travel from the Mediterranean to the red sea, they would have naturally come in contact with the Egyptians.
Moreover, it s on the instructions of an Egyptian Cecrops that they forfeited their citadel and moved.
Who is this Cecrops the Egyptian??
The only Cecrops I know are kings of Athens (there were two of the same name, I & II)
These cecrops are Athenians and not Egyptians.
If The Frisians did pass Egypt in their journey down to the red sea, they would have come into contact with them and some reference would have been found in Egypt or a reference of a guy named Cecrops, who it seems, was mighty enough for the Frisians to fear, that they obeyed whatever conditions he had put forth.

From the red sea, they would have naturally sailed around the Arabian Peninsula. Naturally they would have had dealings with the natives in the Arabian Peninsula. Why isn’t there any record of the journey in the OLB?

Since this account shows that the Frisians of the OLB moved from the west into Punjab, No-ID-EA's post on the Frisians coming into India from the east is under doubt.

Quote

whereas OLB says the fris entered India in the East , but because of harassment from Priests ( presume Brahmins ) they moved further West and settled in the Punjab . so i presume this is where i should look for them first , but 1200 years is a very long time and they could have moved , interbred with natives , died out or possibly thrived as a seperate clan .

rest of the discussion later.  Oh boy, I love to nitpick a post!! :innocent:

Edited by The_Spartan, 13 May 2013 - 08:57 AM.

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#12    Abramelin

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:30 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 13 May 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

He might call you a Fringe nationalist before exploring this possibility.

The mainstream denies any contact between the Greeks or any other European peoples with Indian before Alexander.

He knows what I think of the OLB....


#13    The_Spartan

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:43 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 13 May 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Just one more thing before i stop ....would you call these ancient Indians that we are discussing here as Hindus?

Lol nevermind i have already seen all that you have to offer.

No. i woudnt call all the ancient Indians as Hindus. it is you who fix that label on them. not me.
and you arent worth even the dime stuck to the gum uinder my shoe.
So,  Shoo Shoo..away.....and never return back.

Edited by The_Spartan, 13 May 2013 - 09:43 AM.

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#14    The Puzzler

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:19 AM

If the OLB is a hoax, I believe the reason for this inclusion is the new found knowledge of an Indo-European language connection.

In saying this, a language connection or genetics connection (R1b) Frisians are R1b-U106/S21 is a possible way to find that connection.

The genetics could have been bred out, be very scarce within a small area or gone by now though imo. Language however could have stayed as a language of the sailors/traders, a common language for cultures to take on, like Phoenician/alphabet became, since the Frisians were sailors too and also knew the way back and forth it seems, just as they knew where Atland was.

Edited by The Puzzler, 13 May 2013 - 10:20 AM.

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#15    The_Spartan

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:20 AM

View PostNO-ID-EA, on 12 May 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

One name that sounds like Frisii is the Vrijji (Pali..Vajji ) so thats a start........ Encyclopedia Brittanica says about them , they were a confederation of licchavis and the people of bihar
and were prominant from the 6th century BC to the 4th C CE and that they were an Aristocratic republic . ........Gautama Buddha is said to have modelled the organisational structure of his monastic order ..(Sangha ) on the governmental structure of the Vrijji...........I will need to try to find out what was different in the way
the Vrijji organised their government...............Brittanica also says the marriage of Chandragupta to a licchavi princess helped him establish the foundation of the Mauryan Dynasty..........but it does not say how this helped , so maybe knowing more about the licchavi will throw some light on this .



Here, you are linking two different dynasties.

Chandragupta Maurya founded the Maurya Dynasty.
Chandragupta I is said to have founded the Gupta Dynasty.
The bolded portion in your quote above is where you are wrong.
Chandragupta I of the Gupta Dynasty married a Licchavi princess called  Kumaradevi.

The Maurya Emprie was from 322 to 185 BCE.

The Gupta Empire was from 320 to 550 CE.

Two different Dynasties in two different eras. Sorry, cant link them together with a licchavi princess.

I hope you got that straight.

Edited by The_Spartan, 13 May 2013 - 10:20 AM.

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