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Trying to trace OLB's missing indians


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#46    Abramelin

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:39 PM

View PostVan Gorp, on 15 May 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

Idd no-id: hemel-aaien: stroke the heaven

LOL, that's like 'sky scraper', or 'wolkenkrabber'.

I think I'll stick to the Sanskrit version.


#47    Van Gorp

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 01:22 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 15 May 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:



LOL, that's like 'sky scraper', or 'wolkenkrabber'.

I think I'll stick to the Sanskrit version.

:-)




#48    The_Spartan

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:04 PM

View PostVan Gorp, on 15 May 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

Idd no-id: hemel-aaien: stroke the heaven

Sounds very Edo Nyland-ish. :innocent:

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#49    Van Gorp

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:09 PM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 15 May 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:



Sounds very Edo Nyland-ish. :innocent:

Could be, dont know him that good. For me it just sounds OLB :-)


#50    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:16 PM

480 -460 ish Bimbusara takes a daughter to wife from the Vrijji/lichhavi/Kosala confederation from King Pasenadis/Queen Mallika of Kosala , her name is KosalaDevi
with her her father gives the province of Kashi as a dowry , Bimbusara already has other sons by other wives , She becomes pregnant ,and craves a drink of blood , which bimbisara gives her from his arm .She has a dream from this that her son to be born , will be the death of her husband , and once he is born they called him Ashokachandra ,because of her dream she takes the son out of the palace , and throws him on a rubbish dump , when Bimbisara hears he rushes out , and finds the child ,and brings him back , the child has hurt his finger , pecked by a c*** , and Bimbisara sucks the poison out , until he is well again , which makes him ill , and again makes the queen think he will kill his father .but he is given the nickname Kunika (meaning sore finger )

At some stage when his children are grown up Bimbisara decides who he wants to succeed him , and settles on Ashokachandra , but unfortunately he does not tell him immediately , and he call his other two children.......(interesting names....Halla and Vihalla ) Kumara ( remember what i said in other thread about kum/kom/cum/com prefix meaning they were incomers ? ) and gives them gifts including a 14 strand gold necklace , and a white elephant (the white elephant is said to be worth 1/2 of the value of the kingdom on its own ).

Ashokachandra sees this and jumps to the conclusion that they have been chosen to succeed their father , so he immediately captures him , and keeps him locked up.
Jain and Buddhist stories differ from here on whether Bimbusara commits suicide or he is murdered . but he dies, at this point his mother Kumaradevi sees that her dream came true , and curses him , that from that point on he should be called Ajatsatru ( which means :- one who is the enemy of his own clan , even before his birth

Bimbisara and Ashokachandra are contemporary with both Mahavira and Buddha............Soon after Ajatsatras mother also dies . hearing all this King Pasenadi takes back Kashi and Ajatsatru stops getting the revenue from it , this causes a war between them , history says along bloody drawn out war ensued , with both sides being favoured by fortune and failure at different times.........the history i read says Pasenadi eventually won ?? but the outcome seems to point the other way . as to obtain peace Pasenadi had to marry his Princess daughter VajiraKumari daughter of Queen Mallika, and niece of her mother in law Empress kumaradevi ..... so if i have worked that out right , Ajatsatru is to marry his 1/2 sister ,and as her dowry she was given Kashi and all its revenue . So the war was all for nothing.

The two brothers Hallakumara and Vihallakumara escaped back to their maternal grandfather Chetaka's land who was at that time king of the Vaisali republic (vajji/lichchavi) Ajatsutra sent messengers 3 times to Chetaka to surrender them to him , but he would not .

Ajat summoned other 1/2 brothers the Kala Kumaras , and their 10 Kali Queens , and asked them to merge their armies with his , as it was known the Vaisali republic was up to this time invincible , the 10 brothers agreed and brought their armies , .........Chetaka summoned his allies , 9 Mallas , 9 Lichhavis , and 18 kings of Kashi-Kosala to fight his grandson Ajatsatru , and the battle began .........

So Bimbisara  460 bc ish marries a princess from the vrijji/lichhavi/kosala alliance , but fro Kosala called Kumaradevi,   and has a son called Ashokachandra
  then Chandragupta 1 (320 CE ) also marries a lichchavi princess called Kumaradevi  so is kumaradevi a title rather than a name ?

So far we have Vrijji  , and the names Halla and Vihalla , no much at all maybe but a promising start .. ..............if they came from Kosala , Abe from what time frame was Gosa

i am just thinking Kosala ...Gosa-land .

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 15 May 2013 - 04:22 PM.


#51    The_Spartan

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:47 PM

Kumaridevi...not kumaradevi

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#52    Abramelin

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:54 PM

NO: "Abe from what time frame was Gosa"

She was elected Folk Mother in 306 BCE.


#53    The_Spartan

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:54 PM

View PostNO-ID-EA, on 15 May 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

480 -460 ish Bimbusara takes a daughter to wife from the Vrijji/lichhavi/Kosala confederation from King Pasenadis/Queen Mallika of Kosala , her name is KosalaDevi
with her her father gives the province of Kashi as a dowry , Bimbusara already has other sons by other wives , She becomes pregnant ,and craves a drink of blood , which bimbisara gives her from his arm .She has a dream from this that her son to be born , will be the death of her husband , and once he is born they called him Ashokachandra ,because of her dream she takes the son out of the palace , and throws him on a rubbish dump , when Bimbisara hears he rushes out , and finds the child ,and brings him back , the child has hurt his finger , pecked by a c*** , and Bimbisara sucks the poison out , until he is well again , which makes him ill , and again makes the queen think he will kill his father .but he is given the nickname Kunika (meaning sore finger )

At some stage when his children are grown up Bimbisara decides who he wants to succeed him , and settles on Ashokachandra , but unfortunately he does not tell him immediately , and he call his other two children.......(interesting names....Halla and Vihalla ) Kumara ( remember what i said in other thread about kum/kom/cum/com prefix meaning they were incomers ? ) and gives them gifts including a 14 strand gold necklace , and a white elephant (the white elephant is said to be worth 1/2 of the value of the kingdom on its own ).

Ashokachandra sees this and jumps to the conclusion that they have been chosen to succeed their father , so he immediately captures him , and keeps him locked up.
Jain and Buddhist stories differ from here on whether Bimbusara commits suicide or he is murdered . but he dies, at this point his mother Kumaradevi sees that her dream came true , and curses him , that from that point on he should be called Ajatsatru ( which means :- one who is the enemy of his own clan , even before his birth

Bimbisara and Ashokachandra are contemporary with both Mahavira and Buddha............Soon after Ajatsatras mother also dies . hearing all this King Pasenadi takes back Kashi and Ajatsatru stops getting the revenue from it , this causes a war between them , history says along bloody drawn out war ensued , with both sides being favoured by fortune and failure at different times.........the history i read says Pasenadi eventually won ?? but the outcome seems to point the other way . as to obtain peace Pasenadi had to marry his Princess daughter VajiraKumari daughter of Queen Mallika, and niece of her mother in law Empress kumaradevi ..... so if i have worked that out right , Ajatsatru is to marry his 1/2 sister ,and as her dowry she was given Kashi and all its revenue . So the war was all for nothing.

The two brothers Hallakumara and Vihallakumara escaped back to their maternal grandfather Chetaka's land who was at that time king of the Vaisali republic (vajji/lichchavi) Ajatsutra sent messengers 3 times to Chetaka to surrender them to him , but he would not .

Ajat summoned other 1/2 brothers the Kala Kumaras , and their 10 Kali Queens , and asked them to merge their armies with his , as it was known the Vaisali republic was up to this time invincible , the 10 brothers agreed and brought their armies , .........Chetaka summoned his allies , 9 Mallas , 9 Lichhavis , and 18 kings of Kashi-Kosala to fight his grandson Ajatsatru , and the battle began .........

So Bimbisara  460 bc ish marries a princess from the vrijji/lichhavi/kosala alliance , but fro Kosala called Kumaradevi,   and has a son called Ashokachandra
  then Chandragupta 1 (320 CE ) also marries a lichchavi princess called Kumaradevi  so is kumaradevi a title rather than a name ?

So far we have Vrijji  , and the names Halla and Vihalla , no much at all maybe but a promising start .. ..............if they came from Kosala , Abe from what time frame was Gosa

i am just thinking Kosala ...Gosa-land .

question-  Who in the whole hell and heaven is Asokachandra??????????

King Bimbisara never ever had a son named Ashokachandra!!!!

could you provide the link to the website or whatever you got this information in the above quote????

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#54    Abramelin

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:55 PM

View PostVan Gorp, on 15 May 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Could be, dont know him that good. For me it just sounds OLB :-)

Here is his site:

http://www.faculty.u...nze/nylink2.htm


#55    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:29 PM

I got it from wiki Ajatasatru , but according to them , they got it from the Jain Aagam Uvavai Sutra , Chapter , Kunika

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajatasatru

Chapter birth , then end of second paragraph

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 15 May 2013 - 11:34 PM.


#56    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 06:19 AM

View Postjaylemurph, on 14 May 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

You know, it strikes me that there's some linguistic clues embedded with the text of the OLB that could shed some light on this -- some clues I lack the skills to follow up on that you might be able to, S. (In fact, these might have been followed up in any of the preceding 200 pages of the other OLD thread.)

How old is the term Punjab? I've been able in a several places to trace it back to 'Persian', but with no actual dates. I'm not able to read anything in Persian or any Indian language sources to follow up more specifically. Depending on when and in what language it comes from, we can find a date for the actual writing of the book -- if it turns out it's a word of more modern date, say 1300 or so, then that means whoever wrote the book was using the modern term for it and it is not an ancient source. (Also, if Punjab is not the local word for Punjab, it also rings bells that something hinky is going on, since it'd be like someone from Japan calling their home "Japan".) Converesely, if period/local terms are used, especially when they are not very familiar to us, it suggests a more authentic product.

Ditto some other terms I've seen like "Himalays". It's been a while since I've seen the book -- do they reference Sogdiana and Bactria or Baxtris or Daxia or Bakhtar? Do they talk about the river Araxes or the Amu Darya?

And NoIdea, I would be very careful about bumping around specific lexical words to suit your linguistic preferences. Single word changes on their own are not particularly useful for discussing linguistic relationships -- they need to be part of a much larger category of similar words that all went through a similar change. Individual change like I have seen with the word Vrijji can be ascribed to many other factors, like learned borrowing or coincidence.

--Jaylemurph

The only thing i have been able to discover so far is that Punjab , was originally Panjab , and Panj is the word for 5 in Persian , Ab means waters , also in Persian,

so  five -waters or five-rivers , as in the Jhelum , Chenab , Ravi , Beas , Sutlej all of which are the forming rivers (tributaries ) of the mighty Indus river .

This is how the OLB describes the Punjab as the place where the five rivers come together, but it seems the Persians had already named the area .

Apparently the Vrijii confederation could call on 7,707 Kshatriyas (knights or men of the equestrian order ) in times of war , unlike most Indian Kingdoms ,
the confederation territories were considered Republics , and the word Panch , as in Panchala seems to be the defining word to indicate that instead of
the king making all the decisions ,  the confederation would allow each of the 7707 Kshatriyas have a vote on who was to be their overall leader ,
he would then be called the King , but this was not hereditary he would be chosen after a set period ........( in the OLB Keren  (with a hat on the a ) is the
word for chosen ) .....i note there are a lot of mentions of a King Karan , but have not had time to see if he is a chosen King yet  ??

ChandraGupta 1  is the king who married the Licchavi princess Kumarideva , they had a son called Samudra , who instead of calling himself after his fathers line
he called himself after his mothers . as Samudra KumaraDevi Licchavayah.........there were also coins minted in his reign , which portrayed both the King
and the Queen , i am told this was an unprecedented development in Indian Royalty ,.........and therefore wonder if this could be a foreign influence , one from
the formation of republics ,. and from the higher status of the Queen ( the frisians being a Matriarchal society )..???

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 18 May 2013 - 06:22 AM.


#57    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 07:59 AM

The penultimate paragraph above should have said OLB's Keren has a hat on the first E ( to late to edit )

Does anyone know if any work has been done on why two new important Philosophies , Jainism through Mahavira , and Buddhism through

Gautama , should both materialise at this time , and around the same area .

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 18 May 2013 - 08:06 AM.


#58    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 07:34 AM

As i said at the beginning of this thread i am only just beginning to learn about Indian History , and that criticism would be welcomed , to keep it on the right track , but that some help from people who are have more knowledge would be appreciated .

Yesterday i was informed me that my post #57 was in error ......... Jainism did not spring up around the  Buddha birth era......, it was already a long established religion , but it did come to prominance at this time through the birth of the last Thirthankara , who was named Mahavira, he and Buddha are both supposed to have met  around the time of Buddha's enlightenment (which he said is not enlightenment as such in his opinion , but students to the so called University at Taxila (Tekshashila ) were taken in at around 16 , went through a course of learning and were graduated  , when their Guru (master ) considered they had mastered all the arts taught there , Buddha's enlightenment was his release from University into the world )

It is thought that Buddhas' enlightenment just meant his master considered that he had learned all his master could teach him and he too had become a master . Around this time Buddha is said to have met Mahavira who would have been around 70 , to Buddha's 30 ish .

i was told to concentrate more on the 3 variation of Jainism , and Vedic Brahamanic Ritualism around this time  , they being Buddhism ,(which most people have heard of ).... Carvaka (atheism/nihilism )...... and the one most likely to find traces of the missing "men from the North .... Ajivika  (Materialism ) As all three were variations that came out of Takshasila from 3 enlightened masters around the same time and that by this time Taxila was well known throughout the world , and Kings were sending their sons for education , and teachers were also coming from other countries , and cultures/religions ,  Ajivika may have come from the North or Solar regions ( at the moment i am thinking that may mean , the North Pole area , where the sun does not set for 6 months .????? possibly Aser religion.

I had never heard of the last two , but would obviously be interested if anyone has information ,links to further information or knows much about them themselves

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 19 May 2013 - 07:36 AM.


#59    The_Spartan

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 05:12 PM

View PostNO-ID-EA, on 19 May 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

Ajivika may have come from the North or Solar regions ( at the moment i am thinking that may mean , the North Pole area , where the sun does not set for 6 months .????? possibly Aser religion.




Ajivika/Ajivaka are a group of hindu hermits/swamis/sanyasi, who normally wander around, rather than be located in one place itself.
I am quite curious..why and how are you linking the Ajivikas to North and again to the North "Pole" area???

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#60    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 10:50 AM

Spartan i am looking for a people that probably had a different philosophy than the majority of Indians ,not necessarily , but possibly , unless i make some assumptions , where can i start looking for them ?? it seems to me Ajivika had a different Philosophy , so did Carvaka so i am looking at them

..........in a book called " The Arctic home of the Vedas.....by Lokamanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak " i read that in his opinion the people who wrote the vedas had a very clear knowledge of the geography and yearly routine of the stars and skies of the North Pole , which are unique to this region in the whole world .

in my post number #3841 of thread " Oera Linda book and the great flood (part 2 ) i posted just a few of Locamanya's statements which he thinks proves this :-

Mani :1:67. describing the division of time , that a human year is but a day ,and a night to the Gods .

In Mahabharata : Arjuna is said to have visited the North . ( Could mean North India ..but where in North India could Arjuna witness the following ) the sun and moon go round in a circle from left to right (  ie they do not descend below the horizon ) every day ,(pradekshinam) and the mountain ( Meru ? ) by its lustre , becomes overtaken by darkness , but the darkness can hardly be distinguished from the day .......later Arjuna says  " a day and a night together equal a whole year to the residents "

Tattiriya Brahmana 111:9:22,1.....Kasyappa the 8th Aditya says " that which is a year , is but a single day for the Gods , and that once he had found them , he never again left that land "

Lokamanya says " I am forced to believe that in Ancient days , the Indians had a home (colony ) in the Northern Pole regions.

There is only one place on earth where it can be said it takes but one day and one night for a year to pass , thats the North Pole , now did Indians visit the Pole in vedic times , or did Northern folk visit India , .....probably both........ this is just a couple of those from post #3841 , and of course the book gives many, many more.


http://www.oration.c...lak.htm .........did not work try   www.oration.com/~mm9n/articles/tilak.htm

On the same thread Post number #3902 i had posted some information about Rajputs being descended from Scythic races which you objected to , and had said you had e-mailed a Rajput historian to straighten me out , as i have found more material making these same claims , i wonder if you have had any reply from your historian , as if my information is incorrect , i will not need to spend more time investigating Scythic links to Rajputs .

and in a more recent post you objected to me saying that Ajatasatra was named "Ashokachandra" until he imprisoned his father , and his mother cursed him to be known as Ajatasatru " one who betrays his own clan etc"  ,as it still seems reasonable to me that he would only get this name later in life , when he had actually carried out the deed . once again i gave you the wiki link i got it from , together with the Jain literature it came from , can you please confirm if i was wrong or not in using this name for Ajatasatru.

thank you for your time .

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 21 May 2013 - 11:34 AM.





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