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Govt. is the solution. OR: Govt. is the prob.


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#16    Drayno

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:53 PM

Government is always the problems. Throughout thousands of years - since Hammurabi's Code, government has always been a problem. Even looking back at the Magna Carta, we can see that people in the past devoted a tremendous amount of energy understanding past governments and how they always go tyrannical. Even the genius, polymath founding fathers of the United States - when crafting the documents that would ultimately define the nation as a whole, took extreme caution in enumerating the powers of government. And it wasn't like they put down the powers of government arbitrarily. I have a biography that I received from my late grandmother called Jefferson The Virginian, in which I learned of Jefferon's rigorous studies and knowledge of history - especially governments, in his student days. Whether it be governmental incarnations of Greece, the empires of Rome, Alexander of Macedonia, Gengis Khan, etc, he understood the wear and tear any empire, principality, or form of government go through over time.

He was not alone, almost all the founding fathers covered a ridiculous amount of subject matter...

Limited government is good government. Because limited government means the government is chained.

And that is what makes the Constitution so great - it chains the government from turning on us.

The Constitution was created in response to thousands of years of tyrants and governmental abuses.

Unfortunately, it's almost always Liberals who will deny this painfully obvious fact..

Edited by Kafkaesque, 13 May 2013 - 07:59 PM.

"Let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings."
- William Shakespeare, Richard II, Act III, Scene II
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#17    sear

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:10 PM

Quote

"Government is always the problems." K
The United States is a rare example.

United States government was born of Revolution.
It's government the American colonists brought upon themselves.

They did so to solve problems. And if you want to read a list of those problems, there's a big long list of them (whining) in TJ's DOI.
U.S. governments were ~democratically founded to solve those problems.

BUT:

As B.F. Skinner observed:
Each new "solution" we turn to turns out to be the cause of a whole new set of problems. Self-government is no panacea.

Quote

"Government is always the problems." K
But somehow, it always seems to be a little less a problem than what came before.

Quote

  "And that is what makes the Constitution so great - it chains the government from turning on us." K
If only that were so!

The U.S. federal government has been waging ruthless, self-destructive War on the People it's obliged to protect; and has done so for decades!
Due in large part to the U.S. Drug War, the nation we memorialize in song as "the land of the free, and the home of the brave" has the highest per capita incarceration rate of any other Western nation.

It's a disgrace!

We've waged TWO drug wars against ourselves; and had the wisdom to end the first one after ~14 years.
For reasons beyond rational comprehension, it continues with the second.

Quote

   "In 1960 in this country [U.S.] there were only 4,000,000 people in the entire nation who had ever used an illicit drug at any time in their life. By 1990 we had 80,000,000 people in this country who had used illicit drugs at any time in their life, and the numbers who became hard core, frequent users were proportional and commensurate."   DEA Administrator Thomas Constantine  
In short, the escalation in Drug War made the destruction worse by more than an order of magnitude. And therefore we must do more of it?


#18    third_eye

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:20 PM

deny this but it is still by the people, of the people, for the people ....

but when the people forgets and don't care ... who will care ?

He who postpones the hour of living rightly ... is like the rustic who waits for the river to run out ... before he crosses.
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#19    sear

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 01:05 AM

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"deny this but it is still by the people, of the people, for the people ...." te
Piffle.
What benefit accrues to the People by having our tax dollars used to render us the nation with the highest per capita incarceration rate of any nation in the Western world?

That's not for the benefit of the People!
That's for the benefit of the paramilitary industrial Drug War complex: the cops that feel safer busting peaceful pot-heads than malicious rapists and lethal armed robbers.
It benefits the law court judges that are paid handsomely to hear their cases, and convict them for their offense.
It benefits the prison industrial complex, that turns tax paying citizens into ~$30K / yr. wards of the State.
It benefits the parole boards, and the parole officers, paid to monitor those that should never have been inducted into the system in the first place.

The sanity check of proof these assertions are true?
More than one U.S. Founder tilled the Earth, harvested hemp. Would our nation be better off it Thomas Jefferson was behind bars, for being a drug dealer?

Drug War usurps the right of Liberty.
Drug War punishes the exercise the unalienable right of Liberty as a crime.

How can the exercise of an unalienable right possibly be a crime? It's a conspicuous contradiction!


#20    spartan max2

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 02:26 AM

View Postsear, on 14 May 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

Piffle.
What benefit accrues to the People by having our tax dollars used to render us the nation with the highest per capita incarceration rate of any nation in the Western world?

That's not for the benefit of the People!
That's for the benefit of the paramilitary industrial Drug War complex: the cops that feel safer busting peaceful pot-heads than malicious rapists and lethal armed robbers.
It benefits the law court judges that are paid handsomely to hear their cases, and convict them for their offense.
It benefits the prison industrial complex, that turns tax paying citizens into ~$30K / yr. wards of the State.
It benefits the parole boards, and the parole officers, paid to monitor those that should never have been inducted into the system in the first place.

The sanity check of proof these assertions are true?
More than one U.S. Founder tilled the Earth, harvested hemp. Would our nation be better off it Thomas Jefferson was behind bars, for being a drug dealer?

Drug War usurps the right of Liberty.
Drug War punishes the exercise the unalienable right of Liberty as a crime.

How can the exercise of an unalienable right possibly be a crime? It's a conspicuous contradiction!

Be carefull your starting to sound like a Libertarian :whistle: lol
and that is not a bad thing :tu:

" I imagine that the intellegent people are the ones so intellegent that they dont even need or want to look "intellegent" anymore".
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#21    third_eye

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 06:24 AM

View Postsear, on 14 May 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

Piffle.

~snip

How can the exercise of an unalienable right possibly be a crime? It's a conspicuous contradiction!

this is where by the people, of the people,for the people... should take precedence :tu:

He who postpones the hour of living rightly ... is like the rustic who waits for the river to run out ... before he crosses.
Horace - Roman lyric poet & satirist 65 BC - 8 BC
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#22    Drayno

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 06:55 AM

View Postsear, on 13 May 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

The United States is a rare example.

United States government was born of Revolution.
It's government the American colonists brought upon themselves.

They did so to solve problems. And if you want to read a list of those problems, there's a big long list of them (whining) in TJ's DOI.
U.S. governments were ~democratically founded to solve those problems.

BUT:

As B.F. Skinner observed:
Each new "solution" we turn to turns out to be the cause of a whole new set of problems. Self-government is no panacea.

But somehow, it always seems to be a little less a problem than what came before.

If only that were so!

The U.S. federal government has been waging ruthless, self-destructive War on the People it's obliged to protect; and has done so for decades!
Due in large part to the U.S. Drug War, the nation we memorialize in song as "the land of the free, and the home of the brave" has the highest per capita incarceration rate of any other Western nation.

It's a disgrace!

We've waged TWO drug wars against ourselves; and had the wisdom to end the first one after ~14 years.
For reasons beyond rational comprehension, it continues with the second.

In short, the escalation in Drug War made the destruction worse by more than an order of magnitude. And therefore we must do more of it?

I can agree highly that the War on Drugs and War on Terror have done nothing more than waste money...

We do have the highest per capita and we are sending kids to jail when we should be sending killers or pedophiles.

And their crimes? Simple drug crimes. I don't adovocate doing drugs personally in any way because they're unhealthy, but to each his own.

If I want to do something to my body I should have the right to do so. It's my body. It does not belong to the state.

Self-government is tricky. If the people become complacent they will lose their freedoms.

Huxley and Kafka both agreed that whatever is a distraction is evil, for distractions allow evil to befall upon those who are not aware of its presence.

Essentially meaning, if you're a zombie you will have no rights. Obedience is your shackle; it's a systematic raping of basic American freedom because the Americans are asleep and seeing the American Dream, not reality. The industrialization and modernization of everything have robbed the general populace of free will. They trade their minds for instant gratification... They trade their freedom for security. They trade knowledge for ignorance. They lose themselves to hedonism.

"Let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings."
- William Shakespeare, Richard II, Act III, Scene II
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#23    Frank Merton

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 07:07 AM

I am one of those lucky individuals who has has living experience in both the States and Vietnam.  Both countries have a propaganda apparatus constantly telling their population how lucky that they are not to be living under "them."  The Vietnamese apparatus is more blunt and less subtle, but Americans get the same thing from their media.

There are ways Vietnam is much freer than America.  I can buy almost any drug I want by just getting approval of a licensed pharmacist (the exception being of course addictive drugs).  This has the massive economic benefit of keeping their prices at a tenth of what they cost in the states, so no wonder the drug companies and the medical profession are full of scare stories about how "bad" that is.

Then there are the copyright laws.  Vietnam has a few, but they are short-time and limit the profits, so I can have music and films that I buy right downtown for a tiny fraction of the cost in the states (older movies are available for a dollar or less each).  In the states they are available only if they are released (often release is held up for years to maximize theatre profit) and then they are expensive.  The same applies in spades to books.  If you speak English there is no censorship; there is some state control over Vietnamese publications and broadcasts, but this has opened up.  All the cable networks that you have to pay for in the States are free here with the basic cable fee.

Then there is the legal profession.   America seems largely composed of lawyers.  People don't sue here; if you have a complaint you go to the local constable and he settles it.  There is an appeal but rarely used.  If you cause an accident, a cash payment is taken.  End of story.  If you commit a crime, you have no "right to an attorney" and all that stuff that as far as I can see just gets guilty people off and does little to protect the innocent but employs droves of legal professionals.  Instead, there is a tribunal that investigates and decides what to do with you within a matter of a month or so.

Then there is travel; I can go anywhere in the world I want to go.  Any Vietnamese can, except that the States generally keeps people out (since I have a long record of travel to the States and own land I have no problem going in and getting a visa, but few Vietnamese are treated that way, and most are just arbitrarily rejected.

I could go on in this vein for quite awhile.  The one thing Vietnamese don't have is an open political system.  You are kinda selected to be able to participate in politics.  This has prevented the rise of a professional self-selected political class that you see in most countries, and nowadays most college graduates become party members within a few years of getting their degree, provided they are willing to do all the committee work (which is the basis unit of getting things decided) this entails, so what we have ended up with is a political meritocracy.  I think what goes on in the States is just a circus, not real governance, and with a gridlock getting worse and worse.


#24    sear

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:01 PM

Quote

"Huxley and Kafka both agreed that whatever is a distraction is evil" K  
television

Quote

   Of all the arts, the cinema is the most important.  Vladimir Ilich "Nikolai" Lenin 1870-1924

"There never will be talking pictures." D.W. Griffith

'Television in America does not exist to deliver programs to viewers.
It exists to deliver audiences to advertisers.' a top CBS-TV executive CBS  



#25    flbrnt

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:27 PM

Government is good for somethings, not so good for other things. Republicans are no more for small government than democrats-you can't be for small government and a big military, which is the largest part of government. Life is about wanting mutually exclusive things. We want object X but do not want to pay price Y. We want to live a long life but do not want to diet and exercise. Everything is about working out a compromise. The reason Washington is dysfunctional is because the voters have forgotten that they cannot have everything their way. You win some and you loose some, you give and take. Capitalism works but is exploitative and immoral, socialism is great in theory but doesn't work because of lack of incentive. The solution? Work out a compromise which, hopefully, has the best parts of both systems. Extremism never works.


#26    sear

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:41 PM

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  "We want object X but do not want to pay price Y." fl  
"What's pernicious about deficits for conservatives is this. It makes big government cheap.
What we're doing, we're turning to the country, the "conservative" [Bush] administration turns to the country and says: We're going to give you a dollar's worth of government, we're going to charge you seventy five cents for it. And we're going to let your kids pay the other quarter." George Will Nov 30, 2003


Deficit spending is as cruel as slavery. Both are involuntary servitude.
Slavery is theft of service. It's labor the profits of which are stolen.

When we spend the $money of future generations; they still have to awaken each work day, commute to work, and perform their tasks.
But precisely like the slave, the fruits of their labors are kept from them. In their case, they're merely paying back the money we've already frittered away, on space adventures, martial oppression, "regime change", and other unworthy lunacies.





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