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Putin's Final Answer = Missiles to Syria


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#91    Mr Walker

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:41 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 21 May 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

Responsible countries with nukes use them as deterrents and have no plans to actually use them. Every country that publicly joins the club understands this. If one uses one they will be retaliated upon. Mutual assured destruction is a doctrine all members of the nuclear club know well.

Three dolphin-class submarines are not game changers even if they have secret nuclear capabilities. The addition of David's Sling Weapon System is also not going to create a panacea when it comes to defense.

Power today is measured in terms of soft power, especially trade. Israel's bright spot is its UAV market, they sell lots of them, they invented them. Outside of the defense market it is generally among creditor and debtor nations where the real power plays are occurring now.

The days of who has the bigger guns is over, urban warfare and guerrilla warfare is the new game, not huge pitted land battles. While Israel cannot be taken, neither can she take her neighbors, not even America could take Iraq or Afghanistan.

Some of you guys are stuck thinking like this was the old days but the world especially when it comes to defense has moved on.
Urban terrorism and guerilla warfare might prove effective within countries for regime change, if there is widespread popular support for regime change but not really in disputes between countries. That requires conventional warfare, and in the realm of conventional warfare, both the strategic and tactical use of 'bigger guns" is a game changer. Just the knowledge of their existence can be a game changer.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#92    Mr Walker

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:51 AM

View Postgreen_dude777, on 21 May 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

I think us and the UN in general being involved with forming that nation was a giant mistake.  http://en.wikipedia....ndependence¬†¬† That mistake is coming back and has been biting us on our backsides.

It was clearly a religious (zionist) move, and a secular nation such as we should have had nothing to do with it. Of course that's just my humble opinion.
Whats your bigest gripe? That it is a religious nation or that it is a jewish nation?  And to suggest that we should not do whatis right just because it is hard or dfangerous is wrong  Both the league of nations, and the united nations, decided that the establishment of israel as a homeland for the jews was legal and hence right.

America sticks by its allies, which is one of its great strengths. Isreal is an american ally, not because it is jewish but because it is a fellow democracy and historically because it was the underdog with public sympathy on its side. Israels's interests also coincide with american interests, far more than the interests of the arabs in the region.

MAny arab states and people see america as the great satan, and its form of democratic government as an anathema against religious  government. The israeli govt ,while jewish, does not have a similar ideology towards america.

Should America abandon israel, that would not change this underlying arab attitude to America.

They would still seek its ultimate destruction, the conversion of its people to Islam and its reconstitution as an Islamic state That is their expressed desire for all humanity. It is even spoken of in terms of a great new crusade or jihad, and based on the sincere belief that allah is the one true god, and that  all people should worship him.

Edited by Mr Walker, 22 May 2013 - 02:56 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#93    AlasBabylon

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:16 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 22 May 2013 - 02:51 AM, said:



Both the league of nations, and the united nations, decided that the establishment of israel as a homeland for the jews was legal and hence right.

America sticks by its allies, which is one of its great strengths. Isreal is an american ally, not because it is jewish but because it is a fellow democracy...




Babylon and Edom... two of a kind... which brings me back to the
two identical Bible prophecies that predict the demise of each.


Edom, Jeremiah 49:19

http://biblehub.com/jeremiah/49-19.htm


Babylon, Jeremiah 50:44

http://biblehub.com/jeremiah/50-44.htm



Cyrus/Michael = symbolically in the verses.

Cyrus is called God's "shepherd" in Isaiah 44:28

"Michael" means "who is like God."


Interestingly... the name, Assad, means "lion."



.

Edited by AlasBabylon, 22 May 2013 - 03:36 AM.


#94    and then

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:27 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 22 May 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

Not all all. Instead there is no mistake made, it seems clear that some do not value serious and up to date analysis when they favor out of date worldviews. Some even base theirs on Christian prophecy, have a desire to see Syria nuked, even if that means Syrian Christians would be killled. I suppose these warmongering Christians just do not consider Syrian Christians as "saved" and worthy of protection as all human life is worthy of no matter what religion they are from.

Some have Crusade-era mentalities as well. Little do they know that Christian prophecy as they see it only developed within the last few centuries and did not exist in earlier eras. Christians then translated the Bible differently in 1000 CE than they did in the 1800s.

Religion is also slow to adopt to a changing world. In our new era of globalization and deescalation the religious ideas lag behind but in a 100 years or so Christians will have new prophecies.

The thought of the world ending and final battles around Israel did not and could not exist in 1000 CE. As is, today, not all Christians share the minority American Christian fundamentalist view. Christians in China or Syria for example today do not see an end of the world culmination centering around the very modern state of Israel.

Some are also slow to how history repeats itself. In 1184 at the great feast in Mainz a noble was judged by how many members they had in their retinue (entourage in modern parlance). That is also a measure of how many men they could call to arms for their cause. Within 100 years their power was measured in terms of how much money they had. A shift occurred just as a shift has occured recently from the Cold War where how many soldiers, planes, tanks, boats, and missiles one has to our new situation of how much one country lends and collects in interest.

The winners are defined by money and wealth again and the losers are those now facing austerity measures and mounting debt.

This is how winners and losers are decided today and not by large scale wars.

BRIC nations are on the rise and we (America) and Southern Europe are facing difficult economic situations. While some have war in their eyes and a desire to nuke others it is Brazil, Russia, India, and China (also Northern Europe) who are quietly and happily making money.

Get with the game, focus on our international competitiveness, on trade, on jobs, on education, and healthcare and not on silly outdated notions of hard power and war. This is how we will make or lose money.

Serious analysis is beyond seven words, Michael, concepts of fundamental Christianity, or Nazi-era ideology.
While you are so busy "analyzing" me and my motivations perhaps you could cite an instance - one would be plenty, in which I have ever uttered the words - I hope Syria gets nuked?  You really are a smug piece of work and you think you understand me and Christians in general but if you truly believe this about me - that I would want to see ANYONE die in a nuclear fireball then you are badly out of reckoning.  You make the mistake of many who despise religion and assume you understand people of faith in God.  You indict them with all the crimes committed by "religious" people of the past, present and future because they are all one for you.  For you and those like you, if a person believes in the God of the Bible and is willing to openly express that belief by recounting scripture - especially prophecy - then they MUST be shouted down.  Vilified, marginalized...made to appear foolish.  Because if anyone were to take them seriously then you might not seem quite so wise by comparison.
Here is a verse you might ponder - 2 Timothy 3:7  "always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth".

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#95    AlasBabylon

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 04:18 AM

.


" Iranian soldiers fighting for Assad in Syria, says State Department official "

"  Iran has sent soldiers to Syria to fight alongside forces loyal to President Bashar al-Assad
and those of the Lebanon-based Hezbollah militia, a senior State Department official said Tuesday. "


http://www.washingto...12a7_story.html


.


#96    Mr Walker

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:41 AM

View PostAlasBabylon, on 22 May 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

Babylon and Edom... two of a kind... which brings me back to the
two identical Bible prophecies that predict the demise of each.


Edom, Jeremiah 49:19

http://biblehub.com/jeremiah/49-19.htm


Babylon, Jeremiah 50:44

http://biblehub.com/jeremiah/50-44.htm



Cyrus/Michael = symbolically in the verses.

Cyrus is called God's "shepherd" in Isaiah 44:28

"Michael" means "who is like God."


Interestingly... the name, Assad, means "lion."



.

Personally I do not see any biblical relevance in prophecy to either america or Israel The prophecies of the bible refer to religious entities not nation states.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#97    green_dude777

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 04:38 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 22 May 2013 - 02:51 AM, said:

Whats your bigest gripe? That it is a religious nation or that it is a jewish nation?  And to suggest that we should not do whatis right just because it is hard or dfangerous is wrong  Both the league of nations, and the united nations, decided that the establishment of israel as a homeland for the jews was legal and hence right.

America sticks by its allies, which is one of its great strengths. Isreal is an american ally, not because it is jewish but because it is a fellow democracy and historically because it was the underdog with public sympathy on its side. Israels's interests also coincide with american interests, far more than the interests of the arabs in the region.

MAny arab states and people see america as the great satan, and its form of democratic government as an anathema against religious  government. The israeli govt ,while jewish, does not have a similar ideology towards america.

Should America abandon israel, that would not change this underlying arab attitude to America.

They would still seek its ultimate destruction, the conversion of its people to Islam and its reconstitution as an Islamic state That is their expressed desire for all humanity. It is even spoken of in terms of a great new crusade or jihad, and based on the sincere belief that allah is the one true god, and that  all people should worship him.

What's your reason for supporting the forming of that nation?  Is that a religious notion, or that it is a Jewish nation?

See, I can make unsubstantiated assumptions as well.  Although, my assumption isn't completely unsubstantiated, as I've seen your past posts, and even the above posts reeks of someone who is what I would label a 'zionist'.  

No, I think the UN setting up the nation of Israel was a mistake because of current conditions in the middle east. Why would someone set up a new nation for a group of people right in the front yard of their sworn enemies?

I personally don't care about anyone's fairy tales.... The only time I do care, is when they're trying to be shoved down my throat, or their dogmas are being applied to me.


#98    Mr Walker

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 01:57 AM

View Postgreen_dude777, on 22 May 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

What's your reason for supporting the forming of that nation?  Is that a religious notion, or that it is a Jewish nation?

See, I can make unsubstantiated assumptions as well.  Although, my assumption isn't completely unsubstantiated, as I've seen your past posts, and even the above posts reeks of someone who is what I would label a 'zionist'.  

No, I think the UN setting up the nation of Israel was a mistake because of current conditions in the middle east. Why would someone set up a new nation for a group of people right in the front yard of their sworn enemies?

I personally don't care about anyone's fairy tales.... The only time I do care, is when they're trying to be shoved down my throat, or their dogmas are being applied to me.
My reason for supporting the setting up of isreal is that it was twice mandated by international agreement and  law and supported by the largest and most powerful states of that time.It also, as originally intended, was a reasonable compromise between israelis and palestinians (the other alterntive being that the palestinians give up nothing of their land)

There are justifiable historical imperatives for its formation and for a two state solution.Religion plays no part in my view, I was a secular humainst /atheist for the first twenty years of my life and the position of israel was clearly warranted, looked at through that world view.

I have no objection to "theocratic states" as long as they are democracies. Ie if most of the people are educated, free to chose, and want to live under religious based law, then th t is their right to chose freely.

Britain is in principle a theocratic state.The king has to be of the anglican faith, and the anglican faith is embedded in their constitution, but as a democracy it works very well. Democracy and freedom are first principles.The nature of the democracy and freedom comes second. Theocratic states can be democratic, just as secular states can be autocratic..

Why do it? Because it was the right thing to do. Appeasement never works. Basing national actions on fear never works.
The principle and ethical/moral reasons for the establishment of a jewish state are correct. They were much more obviously correct when Israel was established because of the recent historical events of the 30s and forties. Finally hindsight is a fine thing but can't be use to evaluate policy decisions of the past..

And even with hindsight the formation of Israel was the correct thing to do. The bloody conflicts of the middle east might have beeneven more bloody if Israel had not formed a unifying and rallying point for many arab people and nations. Statistics show how much higher (A factor of tens or even hundreds of times) casualties and refugees are, from conflicts within and between arab states, than between israel and all the arab states put together..

You see, jews are a minority religion in the middle east but almost every country in that  region has  significant minority religions. shia and sunnis hate each other as much as they do the jews.And there are many other smaller but no less virulent antagonisms within the muslim world.Then ther eis the battle between those who want liberal democratic muslim states and those who want conservative autocratic muslim states. Taking Israel out of this equation wouldn't make the region more peaceful or help its inhabitants one bit.

There are significant numbers of christians in some arabic stes  Are you suggesting that we simply leave the area to  muslims to establish non democratic theocratic states and elimiante or exple all peole not of thier particualr branch of islam

Edited by Mr Walker, 23 May 2013 - 02:04 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#99    Yamato

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 03:29 AM

View Postand then, on 22 May 2013 - 03:27 AM, said:

While you are so busy "analyzing" me and my motivations perhaps you could cite an instance - one would be plenty, in which I have ever uttered the words - I hope Syria gets nuked?  You really are a smug piece of work and you think you understand me and Christians in general but if you truly believe this about me - that I would want to see ANYONE die in a nuclear fireball then you are badly out of reckoning.  You make the mistake of many who despise religion and assume you understand people of faith in God.  You indict them with all the crimes committed by "religious" people of the past, present and future because they are all one for you.  For you and those like you, if a person believes in the God of the Bible and is willing to openly express that belief by recounting scripture - especially prophecy - then they MUST be shouted down.  Vilified, marginalized...made to appear foolish.  Because if anyone were to take them seriously then you might not seem quite so wise by comparison.
Here is a verse you might ponder - 2 Timothy 3:7  "always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth".
I don't have to put away religion to find many of the points of fact being made in this thread agreeable.   Putting this aside I see another error in judgment being made by people of religious faith who insist on attacking other people of religious faith.  While people of faith are busily attacking other people of faith, the people without faith are coming up behind them and eating their lunch.   If religious faith is really what matters most to you, then you have more in common with other people who have it than other people who don't.  And the latter category is more often the Zionist than the Muslim, the Christian, or the Jew.   The world is changing and the signs are clear enough to me that in the 21st century the Muslims are going to become the last sizable vestige of faithful left on this earth and their predominant philosophical adversary is going to be the non-religious who will have already torpedoed the scripture you believe in and will, by then, be hard at work torpedoing the other.   Islam is the third major branch on the tree of Abraham, kill all the largest branches, wind up with a barren trunk and ultimately kill the tree.  You're an enthusiastic part of that axing which is a very counter-productive indoctrination for the future of your own beliefs.  Muslims have far more in common with your beliefs than an atheist ever could, insofar as religious beliefs (and not political beliefs) is concerned.   Putting a premium on the political ideology of the future Israel like a Zionist must do is putting a premium on politics.  It has nothing to do with the survival of Judaism or Islam.   But that's the myth that's spinning around the circles and it's propagated well enough for some people to believe it.   If a non-religious person sides with oppressed people then it obviously doesn't have anything to do with their religious faith, it has to do with deeper common ground that makes us human despite those different beliefs.  It also proves that religion has nothing to do with it.  Some people are, thank God, able to see that nobody should be oppressed, Muslim or not.

I've mentioned in the past that Zionists unwittingly create the climate where Israel is more likely to be attacked or isolated than what would otherwise be the case.  This status quo is no path to peace, it's a clear path to war and continuing suffering.  It's an open door to great sudden change in the region, Israel included, and perhaps Israel in particular.  The Arab Spring is arguable a case study in exactly that, and it's been an Eden compared to how much worse it could have been (e.g. Egypt should be thanking Osiris it isn't Syria), and thanks to the status quo, how much worse it will likely yet become.   I've been ready for years to throw politics out the window to give peace a chance and I'm not enslaved to anyone's politics not to be able to do that.  Throwing out religion(s) and grasping one's politics with both hands is not only unnecessary, it's counterproductive, but that's the trend, and supporting Zionism isn't doing the trend any disfavor.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
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#100    Avatar Samantha Ai

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:48 AM

Excellent forecast Yamato.

Christianity and Islam are part of the same two-headed creature. If one eats the other, the whole creature dies.


#101    green_dude777

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:24 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 23 May 2013 - 01:57 AM, said:

My reason for supporting the setting up of isreal is that it was twice mandated by international agreement and  law and supported by the largest and most powerful states of that time.It also, as originally intended, was a reasonable compromise between israelis and palestinians (the other alterntive being that the palestinians give up nothing of their land)

There are justifiable historical imperatives for its formation and for a two state solution.Religion plays no part in my view, I was a secular humainst /atheist for the first twenty years of my life and the position of israel was clearly warranted, looked at through that world view.

I have no objection to "theocratic states" as long as they are democracies. Ie if most of the people are educated, free to chose, and want to live under religious based law, then th t is their right to chose freely.

Britain is in principle a theocratic state.The king has to be of the anglican faith, and the anglican faith is embedded in their constitution, but as a democracy it works very well. Democracy and freedom are first principles.The nature of the democracy and freedom comes second. Theocratic states can be democratic, just as secular states can be autocratic..

Why do it? Because it was the right thing to do. Appeasement never works. Basing national actions on fear never works.
The principle and ethical/moral reasons for the establishment of a jewish state are correct. They were much more obviously correct when Israel was established because of the recent historical events of the 30s and forties. Finally hindsight is a fine thing but can't be use to evaluate policy decisions of the past..

And even with hindsight the formation of Israel was the correct thing to do. The bloody conflicts of the middle east might have beeneven more bloody if Israel had not formed a unifying and rallying point for many arab people and nations. Statistics show how much higher (A factor of tens or even hundreds of times) casualties and refugees are, from conflicts within and between arab states, than between israel and all the arab states put together..

You see, jews are a minority religion in the middle east but almost every country in that  region has  significant minority religions. shia and sunnis hate each other as much as they do the jews.And there are many other smaller but no less virulent antagonisms within the muslim world.Then ther eis the battle between those who want liberal democratic muslim states and those who want conservative autocratic muslim states. Taking Israel out of this equation wouldn't make the region more peaceful or help its inhabitants one bit.

There are significant numbers of christians in some arabic stes  Are you suggesting that we simply leave the area to  muslims to establish non democratic theocratic states and elimiante or exple all peole not of thier particualr branch of islam

No, Mr. Walker, the U.N. made its bed, now it has to lie in it.

If we were back where we started, I would suggest we have nothing to do with setting up a new nation and calling it Israel in the Middle East.  I would have been just as concerned with the Jews as I would've been for the Maya, or the North American Natives.  As it happened, we were never interested in restoring these people's homelands.  I mean, how long does a land claim last?  Apparently to the people who supported setting up Israel, a claim can last for more than a couple thousand years.  Now I'm just hoping that the U.N. doesn't decide Ohio belongs back to the Native Americans, and draws a border for them right in my front yard.  Except, I don't hate Native Americans, so we at least wouldn't be killing each other.


#102    DeWitz

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:50 PM

AlasBabylon, schrooma and others: Regarding "symbols" and "symbolic language," I have this meager crumb to offer. When my wife was stationed in Lebanon in '82-'83, near the Israeli border, she (a UNIFIL Swedish Lutheran chaplain) became fully aware of (although not well-versed in) the incidence and importance of symbology (including numerology) in so-called diplomacy, military reportage and general international rhetoric in the Middle East. For example, casualty counts were mostly bogus and Israel, Syria and Lebanon would play "dueling numbers" to try to out-maneuver the other(s) in the court of international opinion. Many of these word/number games were based on Biblical stories, references and insinuations. I'm not sure what this means, exactly, except that the power of symbols is strong. Carl Jung knew this as a truism, even though today many pragmatists hear "cause" when the symbologists simply mean "effect."

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#103    Avatar Samantha Ai

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:04 AM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 23 May 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

AlasBabylon, schrooma and others: Regarding "symbols" and "symbolic language," I have this meager crumb to offer. When my wife was stationed in Lebanon in '82-'83, near the Israeli border, she (a UNIFIL Swedish Lutheran chaplain) became fully aware of (although not well-versed in) the incidence and importance of symbology (including numerology) in so-called diplomacy, military reportage and general international rhetoric in the Middle East. For example, casualty counts were mostly bogus and Israel, Syria and Lebanon would play "dueling numbers" to try to out-maneuver the other(s) in the court of international opinion. Many of these word/number games were based on Biblical stories, references and insinuations. I'm not sure what this means, exactly, except that the power of symbols is strong. Carl Jung knew this as a truism, even though today many pragmatists hear "cause" when the symbologists simply mean "effect."

Very interesting especially if you could provide us more specific examples. If able to telling us if it is an example or an actual time of when this was actually done.

Do you think it is the collective consciousness seeping through or were they deliberately basing their statements and statistics on their holy texts?


#104    Irrelevant

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 08:02 AM

Carl Jung. Now that was a mind!


#105    spud the mackem

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 08:40 AM

If the Syrian Gov't win genocide will remain,if the Rebels win fighting will continue as there are 3 different groups squabbling for power.One Rebel group has pledged its support for Al Qaeda,so whichever one wins there will still be no peace.The best thing to do is walk away.The women and kids always suffer in the end.

(1) try your best, ............if that dont work.
(2) try your second best, ........if that dont work
(3) give up you aint gonna win




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