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GOP: beyond obstruction to treason?


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#76    DeWitz

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:32 AM

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#77    ninjadude

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:09 PM

View PostF3SS, on 23 May 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

We will never pay it off. Exactly how many years would you say it would take?
There will never be a point where spending ends and there will be no magical time when we start making serious payments while being able to keep up with the interest and pay down the loan and there isn't a bright side to that. We are in debt forever.

This is called a self fullfilling delusion.

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#78    Einsteinium

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 05:35 PM

View PostMiskatonicGrad, on 23 May 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

So fine I'll go one better what is your limit on the debt and how long do you give to pay it off? here I'll answer it for you. "as long as a democrat is spending as much as he/she wants. as long as a democrat is in office never if a republican is in then two years max.

It is almost laughable how little some of you on here know about economics. I am very thankful that some of you are not in control! We would be in a dire situation if that were the case! Lets start here: How much do you know about the fractional reserve system? How much do you know about the GDP to debt. ratio? How much do you know about hedging, the derivatives market, and how congress sets the budget? Do you realize that the republicans have controlled the house now for a while? Do you understand that Obama does not set the budget, he merely proposes it? Do you understand that our debt. to GDP ratio is less now than it was immediately after WW2? Do you understand that right now, our debt. is completely manageable  Do you understand that we do not need to pay off all our debt. as a nation? Do you even understand that govt. finances is completely, totally, utterly different than your personal finances and if you don't understand this, then you simply do not understand the issue at all.


#79    F3SS

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 06:44 PM

Einstein, math is math and debt is debt. So long as the debt grows larger all of that is meaningless. When debt is being managed it goes down so apparently no one in Washington is managing the debt in a positive way. Until we start paying much more than we spend and consistently for many many many years there is nothing manageable about what's going on.


#80    RavenHawk

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:21 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 23 May 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

Really? I mean...REALLY? You are stating that you can judge a man's character without ever meeting or actually talking with the man?
Really!  Actually I am.  I am one of those, but I need a little time.  There are those that can nail a person in the first sight.  People with the talent use non verbal as well as verbal communication to read a person.  Mannerisms, posture, ticks and quirks can reveal a personís character to those that know how to listen.  But we know who this Potus is.  Weíve had close to at least 7 years on the national stage to read him.  Itís not hard.

Also, People that donít have such a talent usually donít understand what it is.

And just as there are those that can see through a person, others get mesmerized by the personís charisma and become mindless zombies.

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That is the height of ignorance right there.
Only on your part.

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No wonder so many People think conservatives are right wing nut jobs.
This has nothing to do with Conservative vs Socialist.  But I do think that Conservatives are more intuitive.  That is a key between Conservatives and Socialists.

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I am not one of them that do, but you give conservatives a bad name stating these things.
This is just disingenuous.

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You are saying that conservatives don't like Obama because they just don't like Obama's so called character?
Well hello!

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Am I detected a hint of racism from you?
At least you took a while before trying to accuse someone of being racist.  Do you understand what you just did here?  We were talking about character and you automatically shifted it to a racist theme.  Doesnít that give you pause a bit to realize that you are toting the party line?  That you are brainwashed?  You are one of the sheep.  One of my favorite sayings is ďI voted against Obama not because of the color of his skin but because of the content of his character.Ē  Iíll let you figure out the cleverness behind that one.

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I once saw a show that proved that 90% of the time people could pick a winning politician based solely on their face alone. Not even knowing anything about them. This shows that people are generally easily manipulated by appearance,
Hence why this President got elected.  In some places, itís called the used car salesman syndrome.  He won on his celebrity and fooling the low information sheeple.

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and yes studies have been done that show many people still think that a black man is more likely to be a criminal, or morally corrupt based on nothing more than looking at pictures. Is that what is going on here?
Actually, his black half is the likable half.  Itís his white half that is morally corrupt.

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I sometimes wonder when people state nonsense like you just did. If people were such good judges of character as you seem to believe, then Hitler never would have come to power.
Itís not nonsense.  You obviously donít understand.  Most people are sheeple and Hitler used his charisma to fool the people.  There were many that knew who Hitler was but was unable to wake up the sheeple.  Same thing is happening here, now.

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Cutting our entire defense budget would be extremely foolish and stupid, cutting in by half actually makes some sense considering that we spend more on defense than the next ten largest nations (economy wise) combined.Defense IS one of the big ticket items, if we are to cut, we must cut from everywhere. Defense should be no exception.
I would agree that we could cut some from the defense budget, but the prevailing Socialist view is that thatís all that can be cut.  We need drastic Entitlement and welfare cuts.  These are what bloat the budget.  This is not the realm of government.  Actually they need to be phased out.  The government has obligations that it needs to meet.  It was unwise to even get involved.  Our budget should be primarily focused on defense and paying down the debt.

The stat is closer to the next 16 nations.  Just a few years ago it floated between 20 and 25 for a long time.  This is a huge disconcerting drop.  I donít think we can afford to cut much more from the defense budget.

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#81    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 06:30 AM

View PostEinsteinium, on 23 May 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

It is almost laughable how little some of you on here know about economics. I am very thankful that some of you are not in control! We would be in a dire situation if that were the case! Lets start here: How much do you know about the fractional reserve system? How much do you know about the GDP to debt. ratio? How much do you know about hedging, the derivatives market, and how congress sets the budget? Do you realize that the republicans have controlled the house now for a while? Do you understand that Obama does not set the budget, he merely proposes it? Do you understand that our debt. to GDP ratio is less now than it was immediately after WW2? Do you understand that right now, our debt. is completely manageable  Do you understand that we do not need to pay off all our debt. as a nation? Do you even understand that govt. finances is completely, totally, utterly different than your personal finances and if you don't understand this, then you simply do not understand the issue at all.
Well, I think that's perfectly true. Government finances certainly do exist in a different world, or a different plane of reality, to what anyone could possibly understand.

If, as it seems, we are in the process of becoming a totalitarian society in which the state apparatus is all-powerful, the ethics most important for the survival of the true, free, human individual would be: cheat, lie, evade, fake it, be elsewhere, forge documents, build improved electronic gadgets in your garage that’ll outwit the gadgets used by the authorities.

- Philip K. Dick.


#82    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 06:41 AM

View PostRavenHawk, on 23 May 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:


I would agree that we could cut some from the defense budget, but the prevailing Socialist view is that that's all that can be cut. We need drastic Entitlement and welfare cuts. These are what bloat the budget. This is not the realm of government. Actually they need to be phased out. The government has obligations that it needs to meet. It was unwise to even get involved. Our budget should be primarily focused on defense and paying down the debt.

The stat is closer to the next 16 nations. Just a few years ago it floated between 20 and 25 for a long time. This is a huge disconcerting drop. I don't think we can afford to cut much more from the defense budget.
So basically what you're saying is, America should be a country of overwhelming Military Might, but little or no spending on welfare? I'm not sure which Totalitarian country that could be compared to, since even (* I claim Godwin exemption *) Nazi Germany had a a welfare system, but you're recommending going even further than that; greater Military might than the next 25 or more of the world's nations put together, but no Welfare budget at all. That really makes one want to salute the Stars and Stripes.

Edited by Colonel Rhuairidh, 24 May 2013 - 06:50 AM.

If, as it seems, we are in the process of becoming a totalitarian society in which the state apparatus is all-powerful, the ethics most important for the survival of the true, free, human individual would be: cheat, lie, evade, fake it, be elsewhere, forge documents, build improved electronic gadgets in your garage that’ll outwit the gadgets used by the authorities.

- Philip K. Dick.


#83    F3SS

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 11:35 AM

View PostColonel Rhuairidh, on 24 May 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:


Well, I think that's perfectly true. Government finances certainly do exist in a different world, or a different plane of reality, to what anyone could possibly understand.
There is a lot wrong with that. The people ought to know what's going on. Instead we have this elaborate game designed to confuse and aggravate people into not caring. Ehh, it's too complicated they'll say. Yea it might be intricate but numbers are numbers and debt is debt and in the end it's as simple as that.


#84    Einsteinium

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 05:34 PM

View PostF3SS, on 23 May 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

Einstein, math is math and debt is debt. So long as the debt grows larger all of that is meaningless. When debt is being managed it goes down so apparently no one in Washington is managing the debt in a positive way. Until we start paying much more than we spend and consistently for many many many years there is nothing manageable about what's going on.

Obviously you have no understanding of what we here in engineering (where I work) affectionately refer to as "executive math". You are wrong, debt is not debt. There are many different kinds of debt. Did you know that the majority of the United States debt. is owned by private US citizens?

Can anyone answer me why we are so much worse off today, and heading towards collapse, than we were right after WW2, when our debt. was a bit higher than it is now (GDP ratio)? We made it through that just fine, yet everyone is screaming that the sky is falling not. I have brought this up several times, yet nobody has dared to touch that part of my argument.

I am not a democrat/liberal, I am not a social conservative/republian. I am closer to a libertarian than anything. I think govt. should get out of my life and let me do what I want, so long as I am not infringing anyone else's rights to do the same. The republicans and the democrats are essentially the same when it comes to foreign policy- hence why you saw Mr. Romney agree with everything Obama was doing on foreign policy issues in the debate a while back. The republicans spend just as much, if not more, than democrats do on average. The real difference, is in where that money goes. Democrats foolishly want to help the poor in this country, the Republicans foolishly want more and more efficient ways of killing people in other countries by spending more and more on defense when we should be doing more with less. The Republicans have shown that they spend, and do so without paying for it. They lower taxes thinking that they will get more revenue by doing so, but taxes are already at such historic lows, that revenue will actually decrease with lower tax rates. They lie to you and tell you that tax rates are too high, when they are at historic lows. The democrats spend just as much, Obama being an exception and spending more, but some of what Obama has spent actually was authorized under Bush, and Obama takes the heat for it. I hate how the liberals want to ban guns, I hate how the social conservatives (repubs) want to ban abortion.

My opinion is we need to get rid of the two party system. Its very nature is one of corruption.

Edited by Einsteinium, 24 May 2013 - 05:34 PM.


#85    RavenHawk

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 08:39 PM

View PostColonel Rhuairidh, on 24 May 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

So basically what you're saying is, America should be a country of overwhelming Military Might, but little or no spending on welfare?
That a very simplistic view of it but then your implication goes off into the opposite direction.

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I'm not sure which Totalitarian country that could be compared to,
None!  This is about as far from a totalitarian government as you can get.  As long as we remain a Constitutional Republic, the military can never be used against the people.  The only way to assure that is a smaller domestic government with less infringement into our lives.  Plus mandating a two year enlistment right out of high school, making it more of a ďpeopleís armyĒ.  Use those two years for college prep or vocational training.  Those that stay can join a professional military.

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since even (* I claim Godwin exemption *) Nazi Germany had a a welfare system,
Godwinís Law is the inappropriate use of a Nazi analogy.  I donít think youíre inappropriately using it, itís just wrong.  However, you are correct in that Nazi Germany had a welfare system.  It utilized the system that Hindenburg established in the 1870s.  This is a Socialist state continuing a Socialist program from a Monarchy which is the predecessor of todayís Democratic Socialist states.  The only thing that has changed in the last 150 years is the illusion of freedom.

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but you're recommending going even further than that; greater Military might than the next 25 or more of the world's nations put together, but no Welfare budget at all.
No, Iím not recommending going further than that.  Iím recommending reducing welfare.  This government was never meant to past out dole and redistribute wealth.  That was not the intentions of the Founding Fathers.  Although, I will agree that some kind of welfare could be beneficial.  But that would require a major reworking.  It would probably be best to scrap the old and start anew.  I could see using Goreís Lockbox idea and keeping $1 trillion in it (this is just a number for exampleís sake).  Any citizen can dip into it but they are obligated to pay it back in full with an appropriate interest or pay-it-forward to the next person in need (that keeps the aid local), then that person becomes obligated.  If you are unable to pay by the time you pass, then your offspring inherit the debt.  Now for most people, it doesnít set right having to think about harnessing your progeny with your debt.  The hope would be that within a few generations, this would begin to instill personal responsibility (reprogram society) and that will break the cycle of welfare in this country.  Keep people from becoming dependent on the government.  Then this Lockbox will become a helping hand and not a handout.  That is a far better use of public funds than we have now.

Now for the military, you do realize that what we spend on defense has paid peace dividends for at least the past 70 years.  I know people donít like the thought of us being the Worldís policeman, but it has been the best ROI weíve seen.  People want to see the other nations step forward and pickup the slack, but is this really a good idea?  The League of Nations was a total failure.  The plea by Haile Selassie is evidence of that.  The UN isnít really much better.  You get many nations on an equal stance is the best instigator for war.  Thatís what we saw beginning in the 1870s on into the 1950s.  It just created an arms race.  What is needed is one police force to assure peace and it seems that we are it.  As long as we remain a Constitutional Republic and resist all attempts to drag us into a Socialist state, we are very capable to do so.  We should follow the guidelines set down in Klaatuís final speech in the 1951 version of ďWar of the WorldsĒ.  We donít care how you run your lives but if you threaten the peace, we will react.

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That really makes one want to salute the Stars and Stripes.
I certainly hope so.

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#86    Einsteinium

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 08:44 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 23 May 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

Really!  Actually I am.  I am one of those, but I need a little time.  There are those that can nail a person in the first sight.  People with the talent use non verbal as well as verbal communication to read a person.  Mannerisms, posture, ticks and quirks can reveal a person's character to those that know how to listen.  But we know who this Potus is.  We've had close to at least 7 years on the national stage to read him.  It's not hard.

Hmmm. I have met people that claim to be able to do what you are describing, but I have seen them be dead wrong on some people whom I know very well. This reminds me of psychics, and people who claim to be able to predict things, see the future, etc. If you can really do what you claim you can do, then you should by now be a high level executive, or business owner, as the skill you describe is as good as gold in both the business world, the political world, and yes even in war. The thing you are not counting is the fact that people can be taught to act differently. Actors/'good' politicians are just these types of people. People can be trained to present themselves in a certain way, but if you can figure someone out just by watching them give speeches on TV, then more power to you!

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Also, People that don't have such a talent usually don't understand what it is.

I think I understand it all too well. You are trusting your intuition, your gut, to judge someone based on subtle behaviors. This is not rocket science. It's just that intuition is fallible, and is not objective presentable evidence in either a court of law, or in scientific investigation. So I am very slow to accept it as evidence of anything, even my own intuition, unless I can back up that intuition with objective evidences that I can validate and present to others.

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And just as there are those that can see through a person, others get mesmerized by the person's charisma and become mindless zombies.

Oh absolutely! Those people are a large part of societies problems (the zombies). One could say that we have been in the middle of a "zombie apocalypse" of sorts for all of human history!

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This has nothing to do with Conservative vs Socialist.  But I do think that Conservatives are more intuitive.  That is a key between Conservatives and Socialists.

If I gave the impression I thought this was about conservatives vs. socialists then I apologize, that was not my intention. I disagree about conservatives being more intuitive, only because I have not seen objective evidence that backs up this claim.

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At least you took a while before trying to accuse someone of being racist.  Do you understand what you just did here?  We were talking about character and you automatically shifted it to a racist theme.  Doesn't that give you pause a bit to realize that you are toting the party line?  That you are brainwashed?  You are one of the sheep.  One of my favorite sayings is "I voted against Obama not because of the color of his skin but because of the content of his character."  I'll let you figure out the cleverness behind that one.

I brought up the racism thing, because there are things that Obama has done that Bush did too, that Obama is being called out on, by the same people who backed Bush on these same issues. This, to me, is unexplained  unless there is some other force at work. Racism could be what it is. COULD BE, I do not know, but it is interesting to think about it. That is what I meant, that his character in some respects is being called into question, when the same character traits of other, white presidents, that are/were nearly identical are accepted and not questioned, but these same traits are questioned about a black man, it gives one pause. If you get to know me you will come to realize that I am anything but one of the sheep. I question everything, including your assertions, and even my own at times. I try to be objective, and give equal weight to all theories until I can find objective evidence to back up one over the other.

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Hence why this President got elected.  In some places, it's called the used car salesman syndrome.  He won on his celebrity and fooling the low information sheeple.

This president got elected in large part because of the economy tanking under Bush when it did, and how fed up the people were over the failed policies of the republican party. Yes absolutely his celebrity had a lot to do with it, and the used car salesman syndrome had a lot to do with it, but that goes for ANY presidential election in modern history.

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Actually, his black half is the likable half.  It's his white half that is morally corrupt.

Now if this statement is not blatantly racist I don't know what is. What is the difference between his 'black' half and his 'white' half and why do you think in such terms? He is a person, his race has nothing to do with anything.

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It's not nonsense.  You obviously don't understand.  Most people are sheeple and Hitler used his charisma to fool the people.  There were many that knew who Hitler was but was unable to wake up the sheeple.  Same thing is happening here, now.

Now I can agree with you! Except Obama is a long, long way away from being Hitler, and honestly the comparisons to Hitler are ridiculous at worst, and totally flawed at best.

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I would agree that we could cut some from the defense budget, but the prevailing Socialist view is that that's all that can be cut.  We need drastic Entitlement and welfare cuts.  These are what bloat the budget.  This is not the realm of government.  Actually they need to be phased out.  The government has obligations that it needs to meet.  It was unwise to even get involved.  Our budget should be primarily focused on defense and paying down the debt.

Absolutely we need to cut spending, but remember that social security is NOT an entitlement if you worked your entire life paying into it, it is an earned retirement savings if you did pay into it like that. Welfare is going up in cost because of the crapshoot of an economy we have, thanks to both political parties and reckless banking/insurance companies, and social security/medicare costs are going up because we have an aging population of baby boomers. I personally would be more than willing to pay more in taxes if I knew for a fact that the money was going towards social security and medicare/health care. We currently have one of the lowest taxation rates we historically have ever had. I agree with Obama's rhetoric on this one point- we must raise taxes as well as cut spending. We must do both. Either one by itself is not going to be enough and the majority of economists agree.

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The stat is closer to the next 16 nations.  Just a few years ago it floated between 20 and 25 for a long time.  This is a huge disconcerting drop.  I don't think we can afford to cut much more from the defense budget.

Just curious, why do you think it should be our job to be the world policeman? We can't afford to do it any longer. Other nations must step up. If we are not careful, we will be defeated economically before we ever see another nation launch a military strike against us. With the growing globalization, and growing communication between the people's of all first world nations, the reality is that an all out war between two first world nations is very unlikely to happen. The wars between first world nations of the future will be fought in cyberspace, through economic manipulations, and through strangleholds on resources. These require a total rethinking of our defense strategy and a realignment of resources towards economic security and cyber security. Terrorism is the major violent threat of the future as we have seen since 9/11. We have not won the war on terror, and we are no closer to winning it now than we were 10 years ago, even with the trillions of dollars we have spent on it. Don't you think that we should shift our strategy? Or do you think we just need more, more tanks, more weapons, more troops, a bigger defense budget? I disagree with that. The military industrial complex budget should be cut along with any cuts to anything else.


#87    Doug1o29

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 09:09 PM

View Postspartan max2, on 19 May 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

Obmacare is a big issue because the goverment is now forceing citizens to buy insurance.
I can tell that you don't own a car.
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#88    F3SS

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 09:17 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 24 May 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:



Obviously you have no understanding of what we here in engineering (where I work) affectionately refer to as "executive math". You are wrong, debt is not debt. There are many different kinds of debt. Did you know that the majority of the United States debt. is owned by private US citizens?

Can anyone answer me why we are so much worse off today, and heading towards collapse, than we were right after WW2, when our debt. was a bit higher than it is now (GDP ratio)? We made it through that just fine, yet everyone is screaming that the sky is falling not. I have brought this up several times, yet nobody has dared to touch that part of my argument.

I am not a democrat/liberal, I am not a social conservative/republian. I am closer to a libertarian than anything. I think govt. should get out of my life and let me do what I want, so long as I am not infringing anyone else's rights to do the same. The republicans and the democrats are essentially the same when it comes to foreign policy- hence why you saw Mr. Romney agree with everything Obama was doing on foreign policy issues in the debate a while back. The republicans spend just as much, if not more, than democrats do on average. The real difference, is in where that money goes. Democrats foolishly want to help the poor in this country, the Republicans foolishly want more and more efficient ways of killing people in other countries by spending more and more on defense when we should be doing more with less. The Republicans have shown that they spend, and do so without paying for it. They lower taxes thinking that they will get more revenue by doing so, but taxes are already at such historic lows, that revenue will actually decrease with lower tax rates. They lie to you and tell you that tax rates are too high, when they are at historic lows. The democrats spend just as much, Obama being an exception and spending more, but some of what Obama has spent actually was authorized under Bush, and Obama takes the heat for it. I hate how the liberals want to ban guns, I hate how the social conservatives (repubs) want to ban abortion.

My opinion is we need to get rid of the two party system. Its very nature is one of corruption.
I agree with 9/10 things you post and that goes for much of what you posted above too. I'd like to say that engineers tend to make simple things more complicated than they have to be. It's your technical nature. I don't know about the after ww2 question but obviously they were doing something better than we are today. As for taxes I don't care where they are historically. All I know is that they can't spend it appropriately and demanding a penny more is just theft and redistribution. I say lower the taxes if for nothing else than to force the aholes on the Hill to get a grip, hunker down and realize they better spend what they have efficiently. I agree on guns and as for abortion I won't say I want it banned but it certainly shouldn't be used as a form of birth control which it rampantly is. I want a no party system myself. Just people running on their own merits and people voting for them because they paid attention and not because they had a party label.


#89    F3SS

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 09:20 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 24 May 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:


I can tell that you don't own a car.
Doug
Cars are an optional purchase and you know what you're getting into when you buy one. Living and breathing in America is different and until Obama came to town that's all you ever had to do in this country and you didn't even have to do that if you don't want. Attaching a price tag just for being a citizen is against everything this country was founded on.

Edited by F3SS, 24 May 2013 - 09:21 PM.


#90    Doug1o29

Doug1o29

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 09:30 PM

View Postspartan max2, on 19 May 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

On a side note your source is really biased , be sure you look at both sides of things.
I agree that the source is more than a little biased, but I reached much the same conclusion listening to our local wing-nuts.

So what about attempts to deny large numbers of people the opportunity to vote, just because they might vote for the other party.  That's anti-democracy, if not outright un-American.

What is a medically unnecessary transvaginal ultrasound if not an unwarranted government intrusion into a person's private life?  Which party is pushing that agenda?

Senator Coburn just tried to introduce a bill denying tornado victims any financial help unless the government could balance it with spending cuts.  OK.  Let's cut the military budget.  We could just give Gitmo back to Cuba.  That would produce some savings.  Or maybe cut the drone program?  How about we do away with Congressional health insurance - let the Tea Party types buy it on the open market like the rest of us.  Or how about we quit covering Congressmen's bad checks at the congressional bank?  Of course, Senator Coburn will not be running for re-election.  And after that maneuver, he wouldn't be going back to the Senate anyway.

Or how about we note that the whole budget-cutting thing is based on a poorly-done economic paper that has since been superseded by one based on better data?


And about Obama:  he's too conservative.  Nixon and Reagan were both more liberal than he is.

I'm tired of right-wing nuts trying to destroy the country.  It's time to consider how to take it back.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott




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