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The missing Sedimentary Meteorites

sedimentary meteorite

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#16    whitegandalf

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 01:52 AM

View PostOniomancer, on 25 May 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

You're missing the key word here. You were asking about sedimentary rocks. Of the 4 candidate types mentioned in the article, all are igneous achondrites except for bencubbinite, which is a carbonaceous chondrite, which while acretionary in origin differs significantly from from terrestrial sedimentary rock. And again, Mercury is not believed to have or ever have had sedimentary rock.

Earth Igneous achondrite which was used, and earth sedimentary rock are one and the same (same category). 80% of earths upper crust consist of a wide range in different sedimentary rocks. (8% of total mass of upper and lower crust)

It is widely acepted that mercury, venus and Mars has had wet periods like earth is now.

What about the earth-origin sedimentary meteorites, shouldent they exist?

Edited by whitegandalf, 26 May 2013 - 01:54 AM.


#17    Oniomancer

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 03:17 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 26 May 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

Earth Igneous achondrite which was used, and earth sedimentary rock are one and the same (same category). 80% of earths upper crust consist of a wide range in different sedimentary rocks. (8% of total mass of upper and lower crust)

From wiki:

Angrites are basaltic rocks, often having porosity, with vesicle diameters of up to 2.5 centimetres (0.98 in).
They are the oldest igneous rocks, with crystallization ages of around 4.55 billion years.

--

Aubrites are a group of meteorites named for Aubres, a small achondrite meteorite that fell near Nyons, France, in 1836. They are primarily composed of the orthopyroxene enstatite, and are often called enstatite achondrites. Their igneous origin separates them from primitive enstatite achondrites and means they originated in an asteroid.

No decent wiki page for Lunaite but it comes in at least two types, one an impact melt breccia, the other basalt lava:

http://www.newark.os...ce/Lunaites.htm

Quote

It is widely acepted that mercury, venus and Mars has had wet periods like earth is now.

What about the earth-origin sedimentary meteorites, shouldent they exist?
I believe it's more widely accepted that Mercury at least is more or less a solid ball of cooled magma, and the jury is still out on how much sedimentary rock Venus _might_ have.

They're possible with Venus and Earth but likely rare for the reasons cited previously. Energy and point of impact factored together with size and angle of the ejecta effect how much goes, how high and for how long. You yourself cited an incredibly small fraction of such non-terrestrial planetary meteors even reaching Earth. Figure into that the number of meteors out of those from all sources that actually make it to the surface.

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#18    whitegandalf

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 06:47 PM

View PostOniomancer, on 26 May 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

From wiki:

Angrites are basaltic rocks, often having porosity, with vesicle diameters of up to 2.5 centimetres (0.98 in).
They are the oldest igneous rocks, with crystallization ages of around 4.55 billion years.

--

Aubrites are a group of meteorites named for Aubres, a small achondrite meteorite that fell near Nyons, France, in 1836. They are primarily composed of the orthopyroxene enstatite, and are often called enstatite achondrites. Their igneous origin separates them from primitive enstatite achondrites and means they originated in an asteroid.

No decent wiki page for Lunaite but it comes in at least two types, one an impact melt breccia, the other basalt lava:

http://www.newark.os...ce/Lunaites.htm


I believe it's more widely accepted that Mercury at least is more or less a solid ball of cooled magma, and the jury is still out on how much sedimentary rock Venus _might_ have.

They're possible with Venus and Earth but likely rare for the reasons cited previously. Energy and point of impact factored together with size and angle of the ejecta effect how much goes, how high and for how long. You yourself cited an incredibly small fraction of such non-terrestrial planetary meteors even reaching Earth. Figure into that the number of meteors out of those from all sources that actually make it to the surface.


Dr Frances Westall, Lead Scientist in the Stone-6 Project (Director of Research Centre de Biophysique Moléculaire Orléans France, former senior researcher at the NASA Johnson Space Center and the Lunar and Planetary Institute Houston USA)

“The STONE-6 experiment shows that SEDIMENTARY martian meteorites could reach Earth. The fact that we haven’t found any to date could mean that we need to CHANGE the way we hunt for meteorites. Most meteorites have been found in Antarctica, where their black fusion crust shows up clearly against the white snow.

In this experiment we found that the SEDIMENTARY rocks developed a white crust or none at all. That means that we need to expand our search to white or light-coloured rocks.”
http://www.europlane...-traces-of-life



André Brack, lead scientist of the Centre de Biophysique Moleculaire in Orleans France, former president of the International Society for the Study of the Origin of Life (1996-1999) and is president of the European Exo/Astrobiology Network since 2001 and part of ESA Stone-6 project.

"The dolomite did not acquire a fusion crust. Instead, the surface exposed to the heat of re-entry burned off. This could point to one reason why we have not yet found a SEDIMENTARY martian meteorite – it lacks that tell-tale black fusion crust that meteorite hunters look for."
“It will be difficult to recognize them,” says Brack. “There is no obvious sign or feature that they are meteorites."
http://www.astrobio....=detail&id=2567



We should at least have plenty of those from earth itself. 60% of all material ejected out will fall down again eventually (after millions of years). 50-70%+- of the ejectia is of sedimentary type. From Mars and Venus about 20 % of the ejectia will end up on earth. It is proven that they have enough speed, enough toughness to handle the journey (millions of years) and the descent. If we have 50 non sedimentary martian ones, we should have at least 150+ earth origin ones? We have not a single one, of any type, not even a basaltic one.

And why is it so important to keep the relevant tests for them OFF LIMIT to the general public?

And dont you think it time for a CHANGE in the way we hunt and recognise meteorites?

Edited by whitegandalf, 26 May 2013 - 07:30 PM.


#19    whitegandalf

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 12:02 PM

WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TOO HIDE?

Me and many others just want the TRUTH, and acess to the relevant tests, otherwise i wouldent bother writing.


#20    mcrom901

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 08:13 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 26 May 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

And why is it so important to keep the relevant tests for them OFF LIMIT to the general public?

which tests?


#21    mcrom901

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 08:16 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 27 May 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TOO HIDE?

Me and many others just want the TRUTH, and acess to the relevant tests, otherwise i wouldent bother writing.

let me forward that to the relevant agency... :rolleyes:


#22    whitegandalf

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 12:48 AM

View Postmcrom901, on 27 May 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:


which tests?


The only test that can recognize all types of sedimentary meteorites by 100% certainly is the "radioactive crystal age test".

It shows how long it has been here on earth, how long it has been in space and how long time ago it was ejected.

There are a couple of other tests too, also OFF LIMIT to the general public, that can recognise some of the missing sedimentary meteorites..

https://www.facebook...ntaryMeteorites


#23    mcrom901

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 06:28 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 28 May 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

The only test that can recognize all types of sedimentary meteorites by 100% certainly is the "radioactive crystal age test".

i couldn't find anything on that, do you mean... http://en.wikipedia....iometric_dating ?

View Postwhitegandalf, on 28 May 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

There are a couple of other tests too, also OFF LIMIT to the general public, that can recognise some of the missing sedimentary meteorites..

on which samples are these tests supposed to be conducted? i thought we were yet to find one... or, are you suggesting that the scientists are deliberately hiding info re such available samples?


#24    whitegandalf

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 10:17 PM

View Postmcrom901, on 28 May 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:



i couldn't find anything on that, do you mean... http://en.wikipedia....iometric_dating ?



on which samples are these tests supposed to be conducted? i thought we were yet to find one... or, are you suggesting that the scientists are deliberately hiding info re such available samples?

Yes
All other tests are crap tests as they cannot recognise most sedimentary meteorites

The site has many independent potensial sedimentary meteorites from all over the world, that are denied testing.

I dont want to speculate on the reasons why they have made this test forbidden from the general public for over 80 years now, and still refuse any acess..

All your answers will be at the site. I recomend everyone to read it.

Gandalf will be off on an another adventure and not available for a while.

https://www.facebook...ntaryMeteorites

Edited by whitegandalf, 28 May 2013 - 10:20 PM.


#25    mcrom901

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 10:03 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 28 May 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

Yes
All other tests are crap tests as they cannot recognise most sedimentary meteorites

The site has many independent potensial sedimentary meteorites from all over the world, that are denied testing.

I dont want to speculate on the reasons why they have made this test forbidden from the general public for over 80 years now, and still refuse any acess..

All your answers will be at the site. I recomend everyone to read it.

Gandalf will be off on an another adventure and not available for a while.

https://www.facebook...ntaryMeteorites

again, what is being censored? which samples? by whom? who is making the claim? pls provide the actual reference to back your claim, thanks


#26    aquatus1

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 02:41 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 28 May 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

All your answers will be at the site. I recomend everyone to read it.

Gandalf will be off on an another adventure and not available for a while.

And now the true purpose of this thread is revealed, and to little surprise, we find that it is pretty much for the purpose of increasing the hits on his Facebook page.


#27    Oniomancer

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:23 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 26 May 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

Dr Frances Westall, Lead Scientist in the Stone-6 Project (Director of Research Centre de Biophysique Moléculaire Orléans France, former senior researcher at the NASA Johnson Space Center and the Lunar and Planetary Institute Houston USA)

“The STONE-6 experiment shows that SEDIMENTARY martian meteorites could reach Earth. The fact that we haven’t found any to date could mean that we need to CHANGE the way we hunt for meteorites. Most meteorites have been found in Antarctica, where their black fusion crust shows up clearly against the white snow.

In this experiment we found that the SEDIMENTARY rocks developed a white crust or none at all. That means that we need to expand our search to white or light-coloured rocks.”
http://www.europlane...-traces-of-life



André Brack, lead scientist of the Centre de Biophysique Moleculaire in Orleans France, former president of the International Society for the Study of the Origin of Life (1996-1999) and is president of the European Exo/Astrobiology Network since 2001 and part of ESA Stone-6 project.

"The dolomite did not acquire a fusion crust. Instead, the surface exposed to the heat of re-entry burned off. This could point to one reason why we have not yet found a SEDIMENTARY martian meteorite – it lacks that tell-tale black fusion crust that meteorite hunters look for."
“It will be difficult to recognize them,” says Brack. “There is no obvious sign or feature that they are meteorites."
http://www.astrobio....=detail&id=2567



We should at least have plenty of those from earth itself. 60% of all material ejected out will fall down again eventually (after millions of years). 50-70%+- of the ejectia is of sedimentary type. From Mars and Venus about 20 % of the ejectia will end up on earth. It is proven that they have enough speed, enough toughness to handle the journey (millions of years) and the descent. If we have 50 non sedimentary martian ones, we should have at least 150+ earth origin ones? We have not a single one, of any type, not even a basaltic one.

Again, that's Mars. This is Earth. Mars has just over a 3rd Earth's gravity, therefore it has just over a third Earth's escape velocity. Higher escape velocity = less ejecta reaching orbit and those that do reaching lower orbits and therefore falling to Earth sooner. This brings us back to tektites. here we have small scale material being deposited together all at once in large strewn fields, which is inconsistent with meteorite strewn fields as the individual objects were already formed discretely in flight, which is the next point. The energy of an impact is such that the majority of the material is going to be melted or pulverized on contact. All of the tektites represent material liquified in this manner. These have been analyzed and found to be chemically consistent with altered terrestrial sedimentary rock. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tektite The same factors that govern rocket launches ought to effect rock ejection too. Nearness to the equator, direction relative to spin, blast angle, impact strength, etc.

Does this mean some rock couldn't have been ejected into space? No. Some rocks from impact sites have been found intact hundreds of miles from their source. This just doesn't amount to the scores you seem to think must have fallen or been left poised waiting to fall. Ejected material also tends to take an indirect path from one planet to another due to orbital mechanics.

Now let's consider what may have actually fallen.  About 71 % percent of the earth is covered with water for starters. Another 30 percent is in the former glacier zone so they would've been either caught up as glacial till or mixed in with it. Anywhere else they fall, they're vulnerable to transport and weathering over time. Any crust therefore is liable to be worn away. The very mechanism that allows them to reach space unaltered is actually going to protect them from the worst effects of all but reentry heat. From a low trajectory, most of their fall would be at terminal velocity, with little heating.

If they have no fusion crust, how you distinguish them from the local rock on sight if they happen to be of a similar type? They mention a white crust sometimes. A lot of rocks are white. it's a natural part of weathering for some minerals, so the same question applies.

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#28    whitegandalf

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 03:07 PM

So according too you the Moon doesent exist?

To escape earths gravity it is needed a speed of between 4-5 km pr second
Most ejectia on Earth has the speed of 10-30km per second.

you are wrong.

See link above

Gandalf is never far away. Gandalf goes whereever he is needed.

Good by for now, my friends.

PS! Thanks for the overwelming support. Over 800 members so far.
Join the hunt for the missing sedimentary meteorites!


#29    Oniomancer

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 05:30 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 01 June 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

So according too you the Moon doesent exist?

To escape earths gravity it is needed a speed of between 4-5 km pr second
Most ejectia on Earth has the speed of 10-30km per second.

you are wrong.

See link above

Gandalf is never far away. Gandalf goes whereever he is needed.

Good by for now, my friends.

PS! Thanks for the overwelming support. Over 800 members so far.
Join the hunt for the missing sedimentary meteorites!

Do you think an ordinary sized asteroid impact could've created the moon? Do you think the moon was detached in one neat mass, in it's present spherical shape? Do you think the moon is sedimentary?

Once again, the Impact hypothesis is just that, an hypothesis, not fact, one out of several and there are problems which it can't explain.

https://en.wikipedia...pact_hypothesis

So stop treating it like it's a forgone conclusion. Either way, it doesn't support your assertion that Earth, with it's higher escape velocity should produce more ejecta than Mars with it's lower one.

I would also like to know where this forbidden test business comes from as well. And don't point to me to facebook. Cite me some direct case evidence.

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#30    DingoLingo

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 06:37 AM

you know.. I thought this thread might have been a interesting read by the title..

how I was wrong..





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