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The Guilt Trip


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#16    Arbitran

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:46 PM

Indeed, the notion that these religions—the monotheistic religions it seems more than any—peddle is simply asinine. An imaginary disease invented for the purpose of selling their snake oil, nothing more. An imaginary disease which is claimed to be intrinsic in all humans, and which only their particular brand of panacea is capable of curing. It's nonsense; and frankly the charlatanic peddlers of this idea of intrinsic guilt for arbitrary crimes are no better than the quack peddlers of radium or mercury from days past.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#17    shrooma

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:50 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 20 May 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

I have been to a  lot of festivals like that everybodys cool, never any trouble.  I pull in people see I am disabled. I start pulling out my stuff next thing I know I'm in a chair with a drink and everybody is setting up my camp and starting dinner. I love hippies.
.
people are a lot more generous with their feelings than most people give them credit for darkwind. especially at events like that, where there is a real sense of community, everyone helping, and getting along with, their fellow man, unburdened by the guilt that religion places upon people.
'thou shalt not'??
they should try
'if it harms no-one, do what thou will'
for a change, it might teach them to not be so uptight all the bloody time!!
:-)

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#18    shrooma

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:56 PM

View PostArbitran, on 20 May 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

Indeed, the notion that these religions—the monotheistic religions it seems more than any—peddle is simply asinine. An imaginary disease invented for the purpose of selling their snake oil, nothing more. An imaginary disease which is claimed to be intrinsic in all humans, and which only their particular brand of panacea is capable of curing. It's nonsense; and frankly the charlatanic peddlers of this idea of intrinsic guilt for arbitrary crimes are no better than the quack peddlers of radium or mercury from days past.
.
I must say arbitran, that for a post-singularitan hyperturing synthetic intelligence, you certainly know your stuff when it comes to us non-post-singularitan hyperturing synthetic intelligences!
:-)

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#19    Bluefinger

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:01 AM

View Postshrooma, on 20 May 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:


.
and to be even fairer blue, we weren't a civilisation, we were a society, as are all groups of people who reside side-by-side with each other, and I wasn't aware that size was a factor in this argument, merely that people were inherently evil, and couldn't be trusted to control their baser urges without the moderating influence of the church, whereas I was just pointing out that that isn't necessarily the case.....
most people are law-abiding, and have a sense of morality that doesn't necessarily stem from the church, so how can me, a non-believer (in organised religion), have more faith in my fellow man than you, a believer in a god who made us in his own image? do you doubt his creation's ability to fulfil his promise? it seems that way if you believe people are filled with evil and pride and hatred.

To address your question, I'm a lover of history.  Despite all the technological advances in every civilization throughout history, all have either fallen completely or was reduced to a tiny state because of, primarily, the vices of people.

It's not that I don't have hope.  It's just that I'm not naive about people.  I've seen the good and bad.  History shows that when the reigns are loosed, crime becomes the ruler.

Take Judea in 66 CE, Rome after 476, and France in 1789.  Bloody, brutal, and crime riddled.

It is not enough to have a good mind.  The main thing is to use it well.     - Descartes

#20    Arbitran

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:05 AM

View Postshrooma, on 20 May 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

.
I must say arbitran, that for a post-singularitan hyperturing synthetic intelligence, you certainly know your stuff when it comes to us non-post-singularitan hyperturing synthetic intelligences!
:-)

Ha, well, thank you I suppose. It was the first thing that came to mind when I found my picture there.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#21    Arbitran

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:16 AM

View PostBluefinger, on 21 May 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

To address your question, I'm a lover of history.  Despite all the technological advances in every civilization throughout history, all have either fallen completely or was reduced to a tiny state because of, primarily, the vices of people.

It's not that I don't have hope.  It's just that I'm not naive about people.  I've seen the good and bad.  History shows that when the reigns are loosed, crime becomes the ruler.

Take Judea in 66 CE, Rome after 476, and France in 1789.  Bloody, brutal, and crime riddled.

Those are three rather... selective examples, to say the least. I hardly think that 'loosing the reigns' of the Zweiten und Dritten Reiche was detrimental to the peoples of Deutschland and the surrounding states. Nor did the loosening of restrictions in Japan—for instance, the former policy of isolationism—lead to crime and other assorted horrors; on the contrary, Japan remains one of the most crime-free nations on Earth.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#22    shrooma

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:17 AM

no doubt our civilisation will too blue, but I don't think we're ready for the fall JUST yet.
it seems that most conflict these days is motivated by religion, and to a lesser extent, greed, rather than our vices, because religion, by definition, is intolerant, whereas our vices only affect those in our general vicinity, as opposed to the global conflict that religion engenders.

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#23    GreenmansGod

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:24 AM

View Postshrooma, on 20 May 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

.
people are a lot more generous with their feelings than most people give them credit for darkwind. especially at events like that, where there is a real sense of community, everyone helping, and getting along with, their fellow man, unburdened by the guilt that religion places upon people.
'thou shalt not'??
they should try
'if it harms no-one, do what thou will'
for a change, it might teach them to not be so uptight all the bloody time!!
:-)

While it is short, it much more complex a statement, than one would think, but   I find it works fine for me.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." Salman Rushdie

#24    shrooma

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:38 AM

View PostDarkwind, on 21 May 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:



While it is short, it much more complex a statement, than one would think, but   I find it works fine for me.
.
me too darkwind!
if you can live your life and be happy, without harming others, then there's no shame in that, and it's better to live by that as a code than be forced to live your life wracked by guilt because some semi-nomadic middle-eastern goatherder said 3000yrs ago that we're all worthless & must be punished!!

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if you fail to grasp the sublety, then don't whine on like a mardy-arsed
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#25    Bluefinger

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 03:40 AM

View PostArbitran, on 21 May 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:



Those are three rather... selective examples, to say the least. I hardly think that 'loosing the reigns' of the Zweiten und Dritten Reiche was detrimental to the peoples of Deutschland and the surrounding states. Nor did the loosening of restrictions in Japan—for instance, the former policy of isolationism—lead to crime and other assorted horrors; on the contrary, Japan remains one of the most crime-free nations on Earth.

'Tell you what.  I'll ask a few questions and let's see if you answer me honestly.

If the American justice system collapsed, what would happen to America?

Remember, honestly.

I think that will prove my point.  



It is not enough to have a good mind.  The main thing is to use it well.     - Descartes

#26    Bluefinger

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 03:45 AM

View Postshrooma, on 21 May 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

no doubt our civilisation will too blue, but I don't think we're ready for the fall JUST yet.
it seems that most conflict these days is motivated by religion, and to a lesser extent, greed, rather than our vices, because religion, by definition, is intolerant, whereas our vices only affect those in our general vicinity, as opposed to the global conflict that religion engenders.

I disagree.  Put politics and anything together and you have a recipe for disaster.  It's not because anything is bad.  It's because politics is untrustworthy.  And it's untrustworthy because people typically tend to use that much power for their own personal gain, often at the expense of many.

Now, politics and religion is no different than the Democrats and the minorities.  It's a campaign slogan.  It garnishes the vote (or loyalty in the case of the monarchy.)  Religion is always at its worst when paired with politics because demagogues always know how to twist it for their own bloodthirsty reasons.  Same with ideologies.  

It has been the human flaw from the get-go.  I don't know how many more atrocities the world will have to endure for all of us to finally grasp that reality.

It is not enough to have a good mind.  The main thing is to use it well.     - Descartes

#27    Arbitran

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 05:33 AM

View PostBluefinger, on 21 May 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

'Tell you what.  I'll ask a few questions and let's see if you answer me honestly.

If the American justice system collapsed, what would happen to America?

Remember, honestly.

I think that will prove my point.  

I think we both know that it is unreasonable to expect any sort of accurate prediction as to what precisely would happen if America's justice system were to collapse. Of course, there are those that might say that it already has... in which case, it doesn't appear that it's a significant enough problem to have caused much ado, yes? In any case, your point has yet to be made: pray tell us, what precisely would happen—remember, honestly—if America's justice system collapsed?

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#28    Almagest

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 06:03 AM

View PostBluefinger, on 21 May 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

'Tell you what.  I'll ask a few questions and let's see if you answer me honestly.

If the American justice system collapsed, what would happen to America?

Remember, honestly.

I think that will prove my point.  

Well for one a lot less drug addicts will be victimized by the system.

Life is the result of the struggle between dynamic opposites Form & Chaos, Substance & Oblivion, Light & Dark And all the infinite variations of Yin & Yang
When the pendulum swings in favour of one It will eventually swing in favour of it's opposite Thus the balance of the universe is maintained

-Jeru the Damaja

#29    Mnemonix

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:53 AM

It feels that way at times.


#30    GreenmansGod

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:15 PM

View PostBluefinger, on 21 May 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

'Tell you what.  I'll ask a few questions and let's see if you answer me honestly.

If the American justice system collapsed, what would happen to America?

Remember, honestly.

I think that will prove my point.  

Honestly, lol, after the after a period of looting, people getting shot, and a few lynchings, not much.  Americans in general are armed to the teeth, there is a kind of unwritten law if you mess with people enough you will get shot. I have been though a couple of natural disasters where everything thing broke down for a while. People tend to organize pretty quick and jump in to defend and help each other.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." Salman Rushdie




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